The Wise Man's Fear VII (Spoilers and speculation)

[Nisheeth]

The only people with his hairs on themselves, that could have been in Anilin, would have been from Roent's Caravan. If I am not mistaken, none of those was having red hairs, which in itself was pretty rare. Thee was no chance they would have mistaken any of those people for Kvothe!

About, Denna not appearing when Kvothe's troupe was killed, maybe she did appear, in one of their audiences. If she is purely created out of the sign, then I don't think she has any motive at all. But maybe she knows she is a sign, and she is looking for a way to liberate herself from it? That may also explain why she would stay with Master Ash despite him beating her. Maybe the beating is part of the process of the liberation?

[jumbles]

Just to clarify, what you are saying is that the deal Kvothe made with Denna was never completed as she never told him her actual name (calling or otherwise)?

That may be true, but i can't get to see the significance of it!

Well, honestly I don't really think that that deal has anything to do with his losing his name (or especially the loss of the ability/skill in one of his hands). But it does suggest that a Name can be given away, so maybe he does later on.

I know it has been pointed out before, but i think that Denna could be a sort of sign for the Chandrian.

Hmm, never really occurred to me that Denna or the "woman pale as snow" could be a sign of the Chandrian. I suppose it's possible, though the "Pale Alenta" line makes me think it is unlikely. Also seems strange that someone would be doomed to be a sign of the Chandrian.

Edit: Just to clarify: I always thought of the "woman pale as snow" referred to the Chandrian itself. What I didn't consider was that she could be an entity separate from the Chandrian.

[JezDynamite]

"Like hell. Check it now, while he's close. We've lost him twice already. I'm not having another cock-up like in Anilin.

I took this to mean that the "cock-up in Anilin" was a recent case they badly stuffed up and it could have involved anyone. They lost Kvothe twice while looking for him in Imre, but the Anilin case was probably an unrelated job they botched.

Apart from that, Anilin is where Denna was heading with Roent, when she first met Kvothe!

When Kvothe asked her what happened in Anilin, he reply was:

"Nothing pleasant," she said, avoiding my eyes. "But nothing unexpected either."

Now why would she avoid his eyes when saying this?

I took this part to mean Denna was embarrassed/hurt by what happened and (couldn't/didnt want to) tell Kvothe out of shame. She could have been attacked or raped in Anilin. Or lived in a brothel. Or learned arts of survival that she's not proud of. Or had to make a living on the streets. Or that's where she met the person who taught her to be a high brow escort (like she described to the runaway girl in Severen of how someone did her a favour when she was young and she's paying it forward).

And on Denna, when Kvothe asked her why did she change her name, her reply was:

"Denna," she said softly. "I'd almost forgotten her. She was a silly girl."

Maybe the events in Anilin were so traumatic for her, she simply associated that name with her naive, former self before she learned what the real world was like In Anilian.

---------

I think Denna would have a very interesting story, but I'm not of the opinion that she is a Chandrian sign, or that anything that happened to her in Anilin had anything to do with Kvothe.

[two_by_two]

Apart from that, Anilin is where Denna was heading with Roent, when she first met Kvothe!

When Kvothe asked her what happened in Anilin, he reply was:

"Nothing pleasant," she said, avoiding my eyes. "But nothing unexpected either."

Now why would she avoid his eyes when saying this?

And on Denna, when Kvothe asked her why did she change her name, her reply was:

"Denna," she said softly. "I'd almost forgotten her. She was a silly girl."

Perhaps whatever happened in Anilin was so traumatic that it caused Denna's Name to change (which traditionally in fantasy happens after a great change in character, something a trauma would probably trigger), and Kvothe, by calling her Denna again, actually changed her Name back, which is part of why she is so bound to him.

[jumbles]

Okay, I know some people think Lorren is Amyr, and I've already said that I believe Puppet is one of the human Amyr. Now I'll say that I think Viari (Lorren's Cealdish acquisitions giller from NotWc61) is Amyr. An extended quote:

A tall, lean Cealdish man opened the door behind the entry desk. Unlike most Cealdish men he was clean-shaven and wore his hair long, pulled back into a tail. He wore well-mended hunter's leathers, a faded traveling cloak, and high boots, all dusty from the road. As he shut the door behind him, his hand went unconsciously to the hilt of his sword to keep it from striking the wall or the desk.

"Tetalia tu Kiaure edan A'siath," he said in Siaru, clapping Wilem on the shoulder as he walked out from behind the desk. "Vorelan tua tetam."

Wil gave a rare smile, shrugging. "Lhinsatva. Tua kverein."

The man laughed, and as he stepped around the desk I saw he wore a long knife in addition to his sword. I'd never seen anyone armed at the University. Here in the Archives, he looked as out of place as a sheep in the king's court. But his manner was relaxed, confident, as if he couldn't feel more at home.

He stopped walking when he saw me standing there. He cocked his head to the side a little. "Cyae tsien?"

I didn't recognize the language. "I beg your pardon?"

"Oh, sorry," he said, speaking perfect Aturan. "You looked Yllish. The red hair fooled me." He looked at me closer. "But you're not, are you? You're one of the Ruh." He stepped forward and held out his hand to me. "One family."

I shook it without thinking. His hand was solid as a rock, and his dark Cealdish complexion was tanned even darker than usual, highlighting a few pale scars that ran over his knuckles and up his arms. "One family," I echoed, too surprised to say anything else.

"Folk from the family are a rare thing here," he said easily, walking past me toward the outer door. "I'd stop and share news, but I've got to make it to Evesdown before sunset or I'll miss my ship." He opened the outer door and sunlight flooded the room. "I'll catch you up when I'm back in these parts," he said, and with a wave, he was gone.

First he was armed. Second, he knew Yllish. Both of these are weak evidence; he's a traveler and works for Lorren. But the most damning evidence was his hands. At first I thought the pale scars could be from the sword tree (they still could be, I guess), but then I realized that his complexion could be hiding blood tattoos on his hands.

His hand was solid as a rock, and his dark Cealdish complexion was tanned even darker than usual, highlighting a few pale scars that ran over his knuckles and up his arms.

The description of his darker complexion could be for his whole body, but I don't think so. I think it is only referring to his hands.

I always thought he was a Cealdish Edema Ruh because of his talk about "the family," recognizing Kvothe as one of them, and being a traveler. But now I think he's Amyr (and a high ranking one too if his hands are tattooed red).

I wonder how he could tell Kvothe was Ruh just by looking at him.

Edit: Also, even though these books are long, pretty much everything Kvothe says is important, so I figure Viari was included for a good reason.

[thistlepong]

Okay, I know some people think Lorren is Amyr, and I've already said that I believe Puppet is one of the human Amyr. Now I'll say that I think Viari (Lorren's Cealdish acquisitions giller from NotWc61) is Amyr. An extended quote:

First he was armed. Second, he knew Yllish. Both of these are weak evidence; he's a traveler and works for Lorren. But the most damning evidence was his hands. At first I thought the pale scars could be from the sword tree (they still could be, I guess), but then I realized that his complexion could be hiding blood tattoos on his hands.

The description of his darker complexion could be for his whole body, but I don't think so. I think it is only referring to his hands.

I always thought he was a Cealdish Edema Ruh because of his talk about "the family," recognizing Kvothe as one of them, and being a traveler. But now I think he's Amyr (and a high ranking one too if his hands are tattooed red).

I wonder how he could tell Kvothe was Ruh just by looking at him.

Edit: Also, even though these books are long, pretty much everything Kvothe says is important, so I figure Viari was included for a good reason.

Stellar frelling catch! I'm a little concerned that everyone in the Archives is a suspect Amyr and I don't see any real reason why Lorren or Puppet would need to be. But the description of Viari's hands has never come up. It's always overshadowed by Yllish and Kvothe.

I kinda think you must be right. He's not Ruh. He talks about "the family" while Kvothe talks about "my family;" even Alleg does that when he's faking it.

:cheers:

[Nisheeth]

I wonder how he could tell Kvothe was Ruh just by looking at him.

Maybe the same way a person at Levinshir identified him as a Ruh?

The person said he had the eyes of a Ruh.

Or that's where she met the person who taught her to be a high brow escort (like she described to the runaway girl in Severen of how someone did her a favour when she was young and she's paying it forward).

I think she knew about it long before going to Anilin.

[thistlepong]

Maybe the same way a person at Levinshir identified him as a Ruh?

The person said he had the eyes of a Ruh.

I think that's it exactly. Either the green/gold default setting or more likely the mood ring eyes.

[Mindphlux]

I don't think the see the woman pale as snow line refers to a sign of the Chandrian. I started re-reading NOTW and in chapter 3 some kids are singing this:

See a man without a face?

Move like ghosts from place to place.

What's their plan. What's their plan.

Chandrian. Chandrian.

So I think there are several endings to the song describing each of the Chandrian (this one obviously being Haliax).

That being said Denna shows up way too often for it to be a coincidence, something has to be going on there.

[Tears of Lys]

I think it's safe to say that Denna is strongly attracted to Kvothe. Well, IMO, I guess. Other folks will have differing opinions.

[stumpzapper]

I think it's safe to say that Denna is strongly attracted to Kvothe. Well, IMO, I guess. Other folks will have differing opinions.

I think we can safely say that, after all the Cthaeh explicitly states that when she's being beaten by her patron she's thinking of him. Unless the Cthulu tree is playing with words and she's secretly being trained as a ninja assassin when she's being beaten and Kvothe is her target and she's focusing her laser-like intensity and hatred on him. But I'm going to err on the side of simplicity and assume the tree is tellin gthe truth and using her affection to goad him into some future action.

[Nisheeth]

When the mercenary's hands touched him, Bast's face became a tight mask of pain. Teeth bared, he clawed wildly at the mercenary's eyes with his free hand.

The mercenary is the one that attacked Waystone Inn in NOTW. I wonder why did Bast's feel pain from just being touched by the Mercenary. A similar description for him being under pain was used when he was holding that block of iron at the end. Maybe the mercenary was not of the Fae and somehow related to iron? Maybe related to Stercus who is in thrall of iron?

Forget it! I found out that its touch left the Chronicler's Shoulder numb and icy cold. Maybe that's what caused the pain to Bast.

[Kv0th3]

History:

The contents of the Loeclos Box are a source of wild speculation. Some of this relies on textual clues. Some not so much.

One of the first, and up until last week the best, was that it contained a scraeling fragment. The scraeling limbs are like stone or pottery, which for some evoked the correct density. It's also demonstrated early on that even a fragment can attract more, which suggested something dangerous but potentially useful; worth locking away and keeping safe.

The second best guess is variously described as the name of the moon or a piece of the moon. It falls apart rather quickly. The stolen moon was pulled into Faen, so anything binding it would need to be there to keep it moving. And it was a powerful knower who moved it, not a sympathist.

Statement:

There is an exact match in the text for the contents of the Loeclos Box.

Selitos stooped to pick up a jagged shard of mountain glass*, pointed at one end.

“No. By the weight of it, perhaps something made of glass or stone.”

*Obsidian is a naturally occurring volcanic glass formed as an extrusive igneous rock.

This is the only glass stone mentioned in the Chronicle.¹ It was used to by Selitos to cut out his own eye, the blood from which he used to curse Lanre.

He cast the stone at Lanre’s feet and said, “By the power of my own blood I bind you. By your own name let you be accursed.”

The description fits. The stone is incredibly significant. But what does it mean?

The Loeclos Box is made from rhinna wood, which we're deliberately clued in to when Kvothe lingers on the smell.

It was like smoke and spice and leather and lemon. (the rhinna tree)

What’s more, it seemed to be a spicewood. It smelled faintly of . . . something.A familiar smell I couldn’t quite put my finger on. I lowered my face to its surface and breathed in deeply through my nose, something almost like lemon. (the Loeclos Box)

The Cthaeh cannot leave the rhinna tree.

So, the shard is locked within the box and the Cthaeh is bound to the tree. We have only two conclusions. The Cthaeh is Selitos. Or the Cthaeh is Alaxel. Alaxel has been shown to be moving freely in the Mortal at the time of the narrative, therefore we're left with Selitos.

When one takes a look at the text with this in mind, there's a surprising amount of support which I'll urge y'all to consider. Before we

The Cthaeh can see the future. Selitos couldn't. Doesn't this invalidate your theory?

Here's some detail about Selitos. He's the star os Skarpi's story in "Lanre Turned:" "the story of man who lost his eye and gained a better sight."

Just by looking at a thing Selitos could see its hidden name and understand it. In those days there were many who could do such things, but Selitos was the most powerful namer of anyone alive in that age.

and

Such was the power of his sight that he could read the hearts of men like heavy-lettered books.

Before we even get into the story he's already as powerful as Tehlu & Pals become in the fragment related in "Tehlu's Watchful Eye." It's no wonder he refused whatever Aleph was slinging. So what's better sight than he had before?

You have beaten me once through guile, but never again. Now I see truer than before and my power is upon me.

So what's better sight than he had before? Well, the lay of the multiverse certainly applies. I don't necessarily take Bast's statement to be hard fact. Everything the Cthaeh told Kvothe could have been read from his heart and fed back to him, or it could have been divining his future. In any case it's an upgrade.

Kvothe asked the Cthaeh about the Amyr?

He did. And the Cthaeh spat a curse and demanded he ask about the Chandrian. I'll throw it back. Who benefits from the Cthaeh not answering that?

Iax Spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon?

"The Boy Who Loved the Moon" (Hespe's story) almost certainly relates the events leading up to the Creation War. Jax appears to be analogous to Felurian's "shaper of the dark and changing eye" who is in turn named by Bast: Iax.

Iax and Selitos are contemporaries in "Lanre Turned," existing at the same time. And Selitos is probably the more accomplished of the two.

Selitos was the most powerful namer of anyone alive in that age.

but

Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match* his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra.

(*match: to encounter successfully as an antagonist, to provide with a worthy competitor)

In "The Boy Who Loved the Moon, " Jax climbs high into the mountains and meets the hermit. Looking back, a few folks suspected this figure as the Cthaeh. Selitos also resided high in the mountains:

[Myr Tariniel] sat among the tall mountains of the world like a gem on the crown of a king.

Hespe's tale humbles its subject and gives it the feeling of a fairytale, but it's no leap at all to imagine Iax consulting the most powerful namer alive. A little manipulation or misunderstanding, the trademarks of the Cthaeh, and he steals the moon.

“That’s not what I actually said,” the old man murmured. But he did so in a resigned way. Skilled listener that he was, he knew he wasn’t being heard.

Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before orchestrating the betrayal of Myr Tariniel?

Seven were poisoned against the empire and six of them betrayed the cities that trusted them. These seven cities were defended by stregth of arm, and thus by Lanre, to paraphrase Skarpi. One city was not betrayed. And Selitos was surprised. In fact, in Denna's version, "Selitos was a tyrant, an insane monster who tore out his own eye in fury at Lanre’s clever trickery." They agree on a point, Selitos was tricked. He did not see this coming. The sensible conclusions would be that Selitos convinced Lanre to do this. Lanre figured out he was being manipulated. His was the city that survived and he marched on MT.

How would the Fae people account for the most dangerous being in existence magically being imprisoned in a tree in the Fae world when it wasn't imprisoned for at least 2000 years before that? They surely had knowledge of the Cthaeh before it was imprisoned 3000 years ago (the approximate age of the Loeclos Box.)

Here's what Bast has to say about the alleged malice and disaster associated with the Cthaeh.

Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. The creation of the Nameless. The Scaendyne. They can all be traced back to the Cthaeh.

A couple things stand out. First, that's a pretty damning list of failures for the Sithe (even knowing the details of only two of them) if it's been there the whole time. Second, "can all be traced back to" suggests they had to do some detective work. So the Cthaeh existed. Then he was imprisoned. Then they figured out what he was. And then the Sithe were charged. He's become the most dangerous being in existence in Faen lore and the mark of a tragedy in their drama, like the Modegan Doctor or the Aturan Wizard.

If the Cthaeh really were Selitos and if it were freed by the opening of the Loeclos box, wouldn't both Bast and Kvothe would have been aware of it in the present frame story?

Not to be flip, but no; not necessarily. I take it we generally accept the box will be opened. Within the narrative it has to occur within the next 5 years or so and the repercussions would then need to ripple forward. Faen's a reasonably large and to all appearances sparsely populated realm and there's probably no one alive and sane who's gotten a good look at him for awhile. Selitos would bust out of there and get back to confounding the Seven. And the existing Amyr are a pretty secretive lot. Bast is a child. He knows what "every fae girl and boy knows." And that knowledge, in particular, keeps most Fae far away. Kvothe knows what he's responsible for, but maybe not all the details. To be honest, his reaction to Bast's tantrum in teh frame is ambiguous at best. Imagine him meeting Selitos at the end of WMF. He'd have been excited...

Please present any more concerns or questions and I'll do what I can to address them. Or become convinced this is rubbish. Who knows?

First of all let me say hi cause I just registered.....

Now, I think that the Loeclos Box is far more likely to contain a key for the doors of stone (a bit obvious, but sometimes you do not have to overanalyze things to get to the correct answer)...

The whole argument on Selitos being Cthaeh rests on Cthaeh not being bound to the tree before, the argument for which in itself is flawed... The whole argument being "it would mean the Sithe did not do a good job", which we know they didnt cause Kvothe got to it. And that part about events being traced back to it doesnt indicate it wasnt in the same place, but that nobody saw people talking to the tree, only figured it out after the events.

Sat among tall mountains and resided high in the mountain is not the same... and in the story about Jax the old man wasnt malicious and did try to help , but saw that it was futile, where Cthaeh is never anything but malicious.

Now some of my speculation... And if it was mentioned before I apologize, but I didnt read all the threads, after xyz posts there comes a time when enough is enough...

I believe that Kvothe didnt change his name on purpose, but he lost his power because of his oath to Denna to not search for her patron. I dont remember the exact wording, but he swore on his name, his power and his good left hand, and there is some emphasis in the interludes on the fact that he has problems with his left hand. On at least 2 occasions: when he was making a wreath and when he was fighting the deserters that robbed him. Also I agree with theories about Denna having a Chandrian for a patron because he went back to the wedding when the screaming startetd and yet survived the Chandrian (unlikely anyone???)... And if this theory is true, then the whole Selitos being a bad guy and Lanre a hero falls in the water cause it would mean that one of the Chandrian planted that info in the song Denna wrote.

I think that maybe Kvothe is a Lackless although the name of the runaway sister is different from the name Kvothe says when Auri finds him crying... This I base on nothing but a feeling and the thought that it is highly unlikely that there would be 2 female nobles running away with the Ruh, since most consider them the scum of the earth...

[two_by_two]

The whole argument on Selitos being Cthaeh rests on Cthaeh not being bound to the tree before, the argument for which in itself is flawed... The whole argument being "it would mean the Sithe did not do a good job", which we know they didnt cause Kvothe got to it. And that part about events being traced back to it doesnt indicate it wasnt in the same place, but that nobody saw people talking to the tree, only figured it out after the events.

Sat among tall mountains and resided high in the mountain is not the same... and in the story about Jax the old man wasnt malicious and did try to help , but saw that it was futile, where Cthaeh is never anything but malicious.

I believe that Kvothe didnt change his name on purpose, but he lost his power because of his oath to Denna to not search for her patron. I dont remember the exact wording, but he swore on his name, his power and his good left hand, and there is some emphasis in the interludes on the fact that he has problems with his left hand. On at least 2 occasions: when he was making a wreath and when he was fighting the deserters that robbed him.

Hello kv0th3 and welcome!

I don't quite follow the first part that I left quoted there, so it'd be great if you could clarify it a bit.

It's true that "sat among high mountains" is not exactly the same as "resided high in the mountain," but in terms of contents and wording, they are pretty darn close - close enough to speculate that they are talking about the same thing. Really, a lot of what we're doing here is very close reading, looking for similar descriptions of things we had thought dissimilar - just like the contents of the Loeclos box and the stone that Selitos used.

I agree with you that he probably didn't change his name on purpose, but we think that maybe breaking that oath is enough to cause him to lose his power and his good left hand, as well as have some unknown effect on his name. Since his power and his music are integral parts of him, such a loss may be enough to force his name to change. Without more information on the nature of names and how they change, we don't know enough to say whether it is or it is not.

[Ninefingers]

Now, I think that the Loeclos Box is far more likely to contain a key for the doors of stone (a bit obvious, but sometimes you do not have to overanalyze things to get to the correct answer)...

At this point, I've managed to convince myself that the "doors of stone" are the greystones. The poem from Kvothe's father describe them as a way to get to the Fae. This feels like a door to me. Also, after Lanre defeats the the monster, it is locked behind the doors of stone - I think this means banished back to the Fae.

The doors of stone referring to the Lackless door or the door in the archives feels to obvious to me.

(Apologies if this has already been suggested and dismissed - I looked around a little bit and didn't see it.)

[Kv0th3]

I think that Lanre defeating a monster is a metafor for defeating Iax, since I think Felurian mentioned Iax being locked behind the doors of stone (not completely sure though)... And if thats true, then the doors of stone couldnt be waystones, cause Iax being on of the shapers that created the Fae coul probably find a way out of it...

Also I think that Kvothe didnt change anyones name, even Auri, he just saw parts of her true name and calls her by it. And when he is told of his name in Ademre (Maedre), there is some emphasis on the fact that knowing a name doesnt give you power over a thing, just understanding. So I guess it requires something else to use the name even if you already know it. Else the old lady that told him his name would be a Namer and could use those names, which I think is implied she can not do.

One more thing, I think that you can not change someone elses name, just your own. You can only use their name against them. Even when Scarpi tells the story of Aleph giving Tehlu and the others wings, it is never said he changed their names, just used them.

And since I saw some posts on the nature of naming/shaping, I would like to mention that I think the difference between the two is just in the degree, Kvothe using Naming binds Felurian so that she can not use her power on him, but that lasts only until he releases her, whereas if he were using shaping, he woul make the change permanent. Also it coul be a different matter altogether, so instead of alchemy one of the distinct magics could be shaping, since I would not really consider alchemy magic. If someone knows something definite about alchemy=magic please correct me, after all I am only speculating here...

[thistlepong]

I think that Lanre defeating a monster is a metafor for defeating Iax, since I think Felurian mentioned Iax being locked behind the doors of stone (not completely sure though)... And if thats true, then the doors of stone couldnt be waystones, cause Iax being on of the shapers that created the Fae coul probably find a way out of it...

It's been suggested but it doesn't hold. Lanre killed and later skinned the beast with scales of black iron. Lyra discovered both dead after the enemy had been sealed beyond the doors of stone.

Felurian never mentions Iax, nor anyone else save Cthaeh, by name. It's a inference we make conflating Skarpi, Felurian, and Hespe. Even then it's only a good, possibly best, guess.

Your point about the waystones not being the doors of stone is accurate in any case, provided Skarpi and Felurian referring to the same individual, I suppose.

Also I think that Kvothe didnt change anyones name, even Auri, he just saw parts of her true name and calls her by it. And when he is told of his name in Ademre (Maedre), there is some emphasis on the fact that knowing a name doesnt give you power over a thing, just understanding. So I guess it requires something else to use the name even if you already know it. Else the old lady that told him his name would be a Namer and could use those names, which I think is implied she can not do.

Maegwn's definitely a namer.

No, the similarity was in how she looked at me. Elodin was the only other person I had met who could look at you like that, as if you were a book he was idly thumbing through.

Still, Felurian wouldn't bother lecturing about the difference between understanding and mastery if knowledge and use weren't at least philosophically separate.

One more thing, I think that you can not change someone elses name, just your own. You can only use their name against them. Even when Scarpi tells the story of Aleph giving Tehlu and the others wings, it is never said he changed their names, just used them.

He speaks their long names and they change physically and to some degree intrinsically forever... just sayin'.

[Kv0th3]

Hello kv0th3 and welcome!

I don't quite follow the first part that I left quoted there, so it'd be great if you could clarify it a bit.

It's true that "sat among high mountains" is not exactly the same as "resided high in the mountain," but in terms of contents and wording, they are pretty darn close - close enough to speculate that they are talking about the same thing. Really, a lot of what we're doing here is very close reading, looking for similar descriptions of things we had thought dissimilar - just like the contents of the Loeclos box and the stone that Selitos used.

I agree with you that he probably didn't change his name on purpose, but we think that maybe breaking that oath is enough to cause him to lose his power and his good left hand, as well as have some unknown effect on his name. Since his power and his music are integral parts of him, such a loss may be enough to force his name to change. Without more information on the nature of names and how they change, we don't know enough to say whether it is or it is not.

Sry if I wasnt clear, I was talking about this part:

How would the Fae people account for the most dangerous being in existence magically being imprisoned in a tree in the Fae world when it wasn't imprisoned for at least 2000 years before that? They surely had knowledge of the Cthaeh before it was imprisoned 3000 years ago (the approximate age of the Loeclos Box.)

Here's what Bast has to say about the alleged malice and disaster associated with the Cthaeh.

Iax spoke to the Cthaeh before he stole the moon, and that sparked the entire creation war. Lanre spoke to the Cthaeh before he orchestrated the betrayal of Myr Tariniel. The creation of the Nameless. The Scaendyne. They can all be traced back to the Cthaeh.

A couple things stand out. First, that's a pretty damning list of failures for the Sithe (even knowing the details of only two of them) if it's been there the whole time. Second, "can all be traced back to" suggests they had to do some detective work. So the Cthaeh existed. Then he was imprisoned. Then they figured out what he was. And then the Sithe were charged. He's become the most dangerous being in existence in Faen lore and the mark of a tragedy in their drama, like the Modegan Doctor or the Aturan Wizard.

It seems like you say that it is improbable that the Cthaeh was imprisoned before all those events mentioned above because the Sithe started guarding him after he/it was imprisoned... All I was saying is that it is not that improbable in light of Kvothe getting by them, cause at that moment he was justa a kid without any special power whereas Iax (the greatest shaper of all) getting by the Sithe is not realy that hard to believe. And that goes for Lanre, since it could be that he spoke with the Cthaeh after he became Haliax. All that we know is that it was before the betrayal of Myr Tariniel, but we dont know when he changed his name.

[Kv0th3]

It's been suggested but it doesn't hold. Lanre killed and later skinned the beast with scales of black iron. Lyra discovered both dead after the enemy had been sealed beyond the doors of stone.

Felurian never mentions Iax, nor anyone else save Cthaeh, by name. It's a inference we make conflating Skarpi, Felurian, and Hespe. Even then it's only a good, possibly best, guess.

Your point about the waystones not being the doors of stone is accurate in any case, provided Skarpi and Felurian referring to the same individual, I suppose.

Maegwn's definitely a namer.

No, the similarity was in how she looked at me. Elodin was the only other person I had met who could look at you like that, as if you were a book he was idly thumbing through.

Still, Felurian wouldn't bother lecturing about the difference between understanding and mastery if knowledge and use weren't at least philosophically separate.

He speaks their long names and they change physically and to some degree intrinsically forever... just sayin'.

Sry about Lanre and the beast, I knew that it was mentioned that someone was locked beyond the doors of stone, I was too lazy to pick up the book and went by the post before mine, but the rest stands.

Making a rock disapear from sight doesnt change the fact that it is a rock, so I believe that any change to their names after he made them disapear was over time because of how they saw themselves now that they could not be seen... just sayin'.

I think Maegwn's a seer not a namer, as Puppet said to Kvothe when they met. Puppet speaks in terms of seer and speaker (namer), while Felurian speaks in terms of knower and shaper. Which could mean that seer/knower and speaker(namer)/shaper are the same. But further discussion on the subject is just speculation until we find out for certain about the relation between naming and shaping.

[john]

When Kvothe was attacked by people in Imre:

"Like hell. Check it now, while he's close. We've lost him twice already. I'm not having another cock-up like in Anilin.

Going back to this, I assumed simply that that comment indicated that it couldn't have been Ambrose that hired the pair of killers. As you say, there would surely be no reason why they wouldn't know Kvothe's in the vicinity of the University. The Anilin connection has got to be from the fact that some of K's hair inadvertently travelled to Anilin with Roent's caravan.

Kvothe does tell Chronicler early on that Ambrose tried to kill him but he could have been referring to the malfeasance we see in WMF. Perhaps somebody else from his earlier life hired those killers.

In any case I find the dowsing thing pretty confusing. He scatters a clump of his hair to the wind and sinks his bloody shirt in the river and then apparently feels safe. Not to mention the hired men apparently follow a piece of hair to Anilin first. Surely any dowsing technique must have a stronger attraction to his actual hair and his actual blood inside his body.