401 replies to this topic

[All Men Must Rhyme]

This is something I wondered quite a lot actually. I was pretty shocked when I read the series the first time by some of the language directed at, and used to describe, female characters in the books, and while I see that this sort of thing was pretty common in the sort of period GRRM is attempting to set, it was still a little strange to see. While I'm aware that this sort of thing happened, seeing it written out in modern day struck me as a little dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, I love that he has written the series in this way. Adding in the rape, incest, murder, crippling young children etc gives it a lot of shock factor, and makes it seem real and believable despite being a fantasy series, yet it always seemed to me that this was aimed predominantly at males. I was pleasantly surprised, therefore, when I see a lot of female readers, both on the forums here and in real life. A customer at the cafe where I work must have been in her 60's, saw her reading ADWD and had a quick discussion with her about the books, and this thought occurred to me then, wondering if she was able to view the series in the same way I did.

I don't want to come across as suggesting that female readers wouldn't be able to read this feeling any differently to males, as I'm sure you're all adult enough to read it for what it is, but I do wonder how you reacted when you read it. Did you feel offended, shocked, a little disgusted, or did you find it generally normal and have no issues with what came up? There's a lot that I feel could come out of this, and to be honest a lot of the subjects are incredibly touchy, enough to actually concern me that I wasn't putting the book down in disgust at certain points, particularly with the age issues of some of the characters, but is this a widespread feeling amongst others?

EDIT: Realised the typo in the title It's late for me.

Edited by Jcooper, 28 February 2012 - 05:45 AM.

[atia-]

I've never really felt disgusted by anything in the books, but I am really thick-skinned.  I felt a little sick when I read that Grey Wind was sewn to Robb's head....but that's the only thing I can think of.  Rape, incest, murder...none of that bothers me.  I mean, I don't SUPPORT any of that, but it doesn't freak me out to read out about it in a book.  I would say that being a girl doesn't make me more vulnerable to read about these things at all.  I am very rarely disturbed by anything I read or watch on television, and even less so than most or even all of the guys I know.  I'm super analytical and not very emotional.  The grittier the better....bring it on, I say!

Edited by dannister, 28 February 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[ipsuel]

I love the books, and I'm not offended by anything in it. Where women are 2nd class citizens, so what? That's the way of the world there. Rape, incest, vulgar language? I think a lot of all that is necessary to set the tone for the world... it's part of GRRM's wonderful world-building.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Pretty much the same that dannister and ipsuel have said. As a woman, I've never felt especially offended by the way the women are portrayed in ASOIAF. It's fiction, the series takes place in a tough world and not only for women, it feels necessary for the story.

[Winter's Lady]

dannister, on 28 February 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I've never really felt disgusted by anything in the books, but I am really thick-skinned.  I felt a little sick when I read that Grey Wind was sewn to Robb's head....but that's the only thing I can think of.  Rape, incest, murder...none of that bothers me.  I mean, I don't SUPPORT any of that, but it doesn't freak me out to read out about it in a book.  I would say that being a girl doesn't make me more vulnerable to read about these things at all.  I am very rarely disturbed by anything I read or watch on television, and even less so than most or even all of the guys I know.  I'm super analytical and not very emotional.  The grittier the better....bring it on, I say!

This. You summed up my thoughts better than I could
I don't have a problem with the language used, because let's face it, the insults ans stuff used today is probably worse. Everything from the rape to the arranged marriage to the puppy-eating contributes to this world, and although I don't agree with any of it ofc, it is a part of it and I can accept that.
In fact, I kind of like that this world is so gritty and not at all whitewashed or politically correct, makes it more real.

[SeanF]

My wife loves the series, but I'd feel a little bit shy about recommending it to my mother, who's 70.

[Gurkhal]

I think they read it just like males do. But I could be wrong and they might use their feet instead...

[Lady Meera Reed]

dannister, on 28 February 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I've never really felt disgusted by anything in the books, but I am really thick-skinned.  I felt a little sick when I read that Grey Wind was sewn to Robb's head....but that's the only thing I can think of.  Rape, incest, murder...none of that bothers me.  I mean, I don't SUPPORT any of that, but it doesn't freak me out to read out about it in a book.  I would say that being a girl doesn't make me more vulnerable to read about these things at all.  I am very rarely disturbed by anything I read or watch on television, and even less so than most or even all of the guys I know.  I'm super analytical and not very emotional.  The grittier the better....bring it on, I say!

I don't condone or agree with the way women are generally treated in ASOIAF, but I accept that it's all part of the story.

[BlackTalon]

I guess the OP thinks women don´t poop, either ...

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Thanks for responding sensibly (most of you), it's just something I wanted your opinions on. Nice to see that there's a general consensus as well, as I said originally, I know you're all capable of reading it just as a work of fiction, it just seemed to me that the audience would be largely more male dominated.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

If anything at times i find myself wistfully imagining myself as a well bred lady with little else to worry about but looking pretty, "whelping" babes, pleasing my husband . . oh and ruling the world behind the scenes

In all honestly nothing in the books offended my sensibilities as a wench.

[Ygrain]

No. Nothing offensive for me. That's the way of that world... and still the way of some parts of our world. I may abhor it, I may detest it, but I can't pretend it does not exist. Even high fantasy Tolkien has hints at rape, there's no escape from that.

[FanTasy]

Please, recommend it to your 70 year old mother. She probably encountered a lot more in her life than you think
I like the 'gritty realism' GRRM writes. Humans are sexual beings and some use demeaning and misogynistic expressions.
This is like it is in real life, so I have no trouble with it in ASOIAF.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

It seems to me that there are more female posters here than men, and more female posters here than other Internet forums. So GRRM is doing something right.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 28 February 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Lady Octarina]

I wasn't surprised or shocked at the language used to describe or refer to women - but then, I'm used to reading books either written or set in older days, not to mention I'm a historian, so I was trained to put such things in perspective. Seriously, I'm more shocked reading how some eighteenth century liberals refer to women than ASoIaF.

Jcooper, on 28 February 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I love that he has written the series in this way. Adding in the rape, incest, murder, crippling young children etc gives it a lot of shock factor, and makes it seem real and believable despite being a fantasy series, yet it always seemed to me that this was aimed predominantly at males.

I disagree here. I think the series is fit for readers of our time (XX-XXI century), not necessarily male or female. There are many strong female characters to counterbalance the pejorative terms, and who are just as human as the men. Girl power is strong there, my friends.

[Doran II]

One thing that bothers me sometimes is the use of the word wench, english is not my native language so i really have no idea about the history behind this world, what do women think about it? Id it offensive or not?

ps: im a dude, btw...

[A Free Shadow]

I do relate to the male characters much more. But that is the case in practically every book

Although some scenes where women are humiliated and men feel more manly when doing so, I just want to jump in and kick them. But I want to kick Cersei too, when she is doing things "because she is a mother", or Sansa, when she is doing things "because she is a lady".

[Chronicler]

I have actually wondered what comments in this book is so offensive to women?

I have read em, and I haven't found this horrible language towards women.......

If the idea of women not being able to be soldiers etc is offensive, or that they are suppose to have kids is offensive...

In my opinion Martins books are very liberal, every society all over the world seems to have some women that want to be soldiers. (EDIT: In the books)

We have Asha from the Ironborn (and others), Mormonts from the north (and others...Arya...etc), we have Brienne from the stormlands, we have the sandsnakes from Dorne etc etc. And there doesn't really seem to be much caring.

Edited by Chronicler, 28 February 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[SeanF]

FanTasy, on 28 February 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Please, recommend it to your 70 year old mother. She probably encountered a lot more in her life than you think
I like the 'gritty realism' GRRM writes. Humans are sexual beings and some use demeaning and misogynistic expressions.
This is like it is in real life, so I have no trouble with it in ASOIAF.

You're probably right about that, but I've never really got over the acute embarassment one feels as a teenager when you're watching a TV programme with your parents, and there's a sex scene.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Lady Octarina, on 28 February 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

I wasn't surprised or shocked at the language used to describe or refer to women - but then, I'm used to reading books either written or set in older days, not to mention I'm a historian, so I was trained to put such things in perspective. Seriously, I'm more shocked reading how some eighteenth century liberals refer to women than ASoIaF.



I disagree here. I think the series is fit for readers of our time (XX-XXI century), not necessarily male or female. There are many strong female characters to counterbalance the pejorative terms, and who are just as human as the men. Girl power is strong there, my friends.

Maybe that's a part of it. This is the first series I've read that uses language like this that I can remember at least, probably just me being naive in thinking nobody else would have either. I really hope this thread doesn't make me come across as a misogynistic dick haha.