401 replies to this topic

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Chronicler, on 28 February 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

I have actually wondered what comments in this book is so offensive to women?

I have read em, and I haven't found this horrible language towards women.......

If the idea of women not being able to be soldiers etc is offensive, or that they are suppose to have kids is offensive...

In my opinion Martins books are very liberal, every society all over the world seems to have some women that want to be soldiers.

We have Asha from the Ironborn (and others), Mormonts from the north (and others...Arya...etc), we have Brienne from the stormlands, we have the sandsnakes from Dorne etc etc. And there doesn't really seem to be much caring.

Apparently most of them agree with you. I'd think things like the usual "slut" "whore" "cunt" would be bad enough. Add in the whole idea of women being sold, arranged marriages of young teenage girls to weird old men, Viscerys saying things like "I'd let his whole army fuck you, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that's what it took" or something along those lines. THAT is the sort of stuff I'm talking about

[Chronicler]

Jcooper, on 28 February 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Apparently most of them agree with you. I'd think things like the usual "slut" "whore" "cunt" would be bad enough. Add in the whole idea of women being sold, arranged marriages of young teenage girls to weird old men, Viscerys saying things like "I'd let his whole army fuck you, all forty thousand men and their horses too if that's what it took" or something along those lines. THAT is the sort of stuff I'm talking about

Well, it is a minority of men in the books who uses that kind of language, and I mean, that happens these days as well, just last week I was out late on town (I'm swedish), and I saw these young turkish men trying to stop some young beautiful swedish women, they rejected the turks, and the turks then right away started screaming stuff like "whore" etc.

And it's a medieval setting, not strange that women were traded somewhat, and the dowry was the sum they were sold for (this has been really twisted by feminists though like everything else)

And yes, it is weird that they marry such old men, but it makes sense if you think about it since even old men want heirs, and old women might not be able to provide those (most def they won't)

The swedish king Gustav Vasa married a 16-yearold girl when he was really old.

And Viserys was insane, so he got that excuse. (Or really stupid at least)


And let's not forget there are similar outrages done by women, Cersei pretty much uses men in her life like Lancel for example....and we all read about the castrating women pirates etc.

EDIT: And of my experience with women irl, they actually want to be manhandled/dominated. Seems to me women are naturally submissive, I was taught when I grew up that women wanted nice men, women today pretty much beg me to dominate them, which I find weird. (Wish someone had taught me that as a kid)

Edited by Chronicler, 28 February 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Chronicler, on 28 February 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Well, it is a minority of men in the books who uses that kind of language, and I mean, that happens these days as well, just last week I was out late on town (I'm swedish), and I saw these young turkish men trying to stop some young beautiful swedish women, they rejected the turks, and the turks then right away started screaming stuff like "whore" etc.

And it's a medieval setting, not strange that women were traded somewhat, and the dowry was the sum they were sold for (this has been really twisted by feminists though like everything else)

And yes, it is weird that they marry such old men, but it makes sense if you think about it since even old men want heirs, and old women might not be able to provide those (most def they won't)

The swedish king Gustav Vasa married a 16-yearold girl when he was really old.

And Viserys was insane, so he got that excuse. (Or really stupid at least)


And let's not forget there are similar outrages done by women, Cersei pretty much uses men in her life like Lancel for example....and we all read about the castrating women pirates etc.

EDIT: And of my experience with women irl, they actually want to be manhandled/dominated. Seems to me women are naturally submissive, I was taught when I grew up that women wanted nice men, women today pretty much beg me to dominate them, which I find weird. (Wish someone had taught me that as a kid)

Thanks for replying. It seems everybody feels generally the same way about it, which is what I was looking to find out. Probably turns out that it's a stupid question to ask in the first place lol.

[kissdbyfire]

SeanF, on 28 February 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

My wife loves the series, but I'd feel a little bit shy about recommending it to my mother, who's 70.

My mum is 68, and she absolutely love these books.

As dannister, ipsuel, and Val have said above, none of it bothers me in the least. On the contrary, what a relief to be immersed in a universe where we don't have political correcteness gone mad. Hell, where there is no political correcteness at all!

[poor lollys]

I do not find it offensive in any way; that' just the way of this world. and I see a lot of female empowerment actually. Look at Arya, the victim who will not be victimized.

I view the treatment of women In ASOIAF the same way I view the treatment of women in real life historical times past- Its just the way it is and I'm glad i don't live there!

I have been a waitress for many years and I cringe at the thought of living in Westeros as a serving wench. Just pouring drinks and a guy stinks his hand up your skirt and you can't say a thing because he's a lord. But being a guy ain't much better in westeros. everybody is always getting hurt!

I enjoy the world of ASOIAF and think that it is full of victims and victors of both sexes. I don't think women are portrayed in any way that seems offensive. Look at Asha or the Sand Snakes or Cersei.  Meera or Val, all of these are great characters. Or Daenerys even! I think the women characters are great and many are empowered. So i think women are fairly portrayed and that just like the men are sometimes screwed by being victims of circumstance.

[Winter's Knight]

ASOIAF has to be one of the few series where I have been able to identify with female characters-they are well fleshed out and diverse and there is no sense of "tokenism".

[Elaena Targaryen]

Personally I was not offended or shocked at all, and I love the series. I think it could be a matter of perception from your expectations. Some might find things to be offended by, but I did not. Now if I did come across something in the text that bothered me in that way I would not have finished reading the books.

At the same time how many would have enjoyed the series if it was 100% politically correct and had no offensive issues towards women? Some stories might be that way but this story imo needed these things and it added more layers of issues from RL, then and now.

[SeanF]

Elaena Targaryen, on 28 February 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

At the same time how many would have enjoyed the series if it was 100% politically correct and had no offensive issues towards women? Some stories might be that way but this story imo needed these things and it added more layers of issues from RL, then and now.

If it's an adventure story, it's not going to be interesting unless the protagonists are treated unfairly.  You want them to be thrown in at the deep end, and then to see how they'll cope.

[Fire_Kiss]

It's hard for me to get worried about the language Martin has hi charecters use. Words are wind, and they don't create much of an effect on me.

The only part I got squicked out on was in the battle of the Blackwater, where a soldier is trying to yield, but his hand is still in the gauntlet.
I still get squicked about it, actually.

And to answer a previous question, "wench" is a mild derogatory term used for women, (like the way Jamie calls Briene "wench") but I've seen it used as "tavern wench" which is basically a server.

Honestly, I get distracted when reading epic high fantasy and DON'T see language of the times.

[Dena]

I've never been offended by the books, the way they are treated fits in the books, it helps to build the world of Westeros, and there are a lot of strong female characters: Cersei  (she is a villain, but she is also ambitious and tries to get what she wants, I don't agree with her methods, but at least she doesn't surrender because she is a woman and she shouldn't want power), Asha (she was raised to be a leader despite being a female, she is independent and IMO she is the only Greyjoy with a little sense), Sansa (I know a lot of people don't like her, but she has gone through a lot of suffering and humiliation and she is still a good hearted, gentle girl who refuses to become like her enemies), Arya (who goes through hell but refuses to pity herself)...

ETA: To me is more important how the female characters are built (and IMO in ASOIAF they are well written) than the name calling or the women been seen as unable to rule.

Edited by Dena, 28 February 2012 - 09:24 AM.

[Gala]

Offended? No. Shocked? Well, there are actually scenes that would make me sick, for example, the scenes of Gregor's, Biter's or any other monster's actions. A lot that made me cry or those that made me want to take a sword in my hands and defense someone in the scene. I have very vivid imagination and heightened sense of justice (and sometime the one I want to defend is not woman).
I understand that this book/world of ASoIaF has its rules and its exceptions (women-warriors, for example), and I except all that with understanding. I wouldn't be reading the book in first place if it was disgusting or worse.

P.S: Jcooper,I like this topic and it is really interesting to read other people's opinions. Thanks.

[Mr. E]

Interesting responses here, and just wanted to kick in that part of what GRRM was doing was deconstructing the classic "fantasy" setting that's been hanging about since LOTR. Most fantasy settings take place in "medieval" like time periods, and most of the time the characters in them live pretty good lives and at the worst are funny beggars or pickpockets that annoy the main characters. (A la the Wiseman's fear). Now, by no means is this a bad thing, but I think GRRM wanted to say: "Ha, ha, sorry folks, but if a story like this actually took place in a medieval setting, this is what it would look like."

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 28 February 2012 - 10:17 AM.
removed quote of now-deleted comment

[Thoheeks Bili]

I am not a woman(but i sure love them   ) but i know that my wife and daughter both love the series also.Very "gritty", not wishy washy.
You do know that in some cultures(cough, muslim, cough)older men marry girl children and essentially OWN them, right? Not far different than the world Martin portray's........

[Dena]

Fire kiss already answered you

Fire_Kiss, on 28 February 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

It's hard for me to get worried about the language Martin has hi charecters use. Words are wind, and they don't create much of an effect on me.

The only part I got squicked out on was in the battle of the Blackwater, where a soldier is trying to yield, but his hand is still in the gauntlet.
I still get squicked about it, actually.

And to answer a previous question, "wench" is a mild derogatory term used for women, (like the way Jamie calls Briene "wench") but I've seen it used as "tavern wench" which is basically a server.

Honestly, I get distracted when reading epic high fantasy and DON'T see language of the times.

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 28 February 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Winter's Lady]

Doran II, on 28 February 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

and please answr my question xD

English isn't my first language either, but I just looked up translations for "wench" and it can mean anything from girl to serving woman to prostitute. So it's one of these tthings where it'S not what you say, but how you say it. I'm not offended by it because it fits the setting of the story.

Edit: ^ much better answer above my post.

Edited by Lady of Oldcastle, 28 February 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Doran II]

And how about when its used outside of the story? i see it sometimes around here.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Stick to the topic, please. [/mod]

[Winter's Lady]

Doran II, on 28 February 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

And how about when its used outside of the story? i see it sometimes around here.

Meh...I don't take such stuff serious on the interwebz. Now, if someone called me wench to my face, I might just have to "rearrange the facial features" of this person with my hand. But again, it depends on the context.

[Winter's Knight]

Doran II, on 28 February 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

And how about when its used outside of the story? i see it sometimes around here.

Quoting wikipedia:

Quote

Wench, a historical colloquial term for a lower class woman and/or promiscuous woman. Also in the 19th and early 20th centuries a derogatory term for a non Euro-American woman, the male counterpart being Buck.

Edited by Winterbreath, 28 February 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[_Oberyn_]

All I know is my gf used to get very "grabby" when she was reading the books, that cant be a bad thing