401 replies to this topic

[Dracarya]

David Selig, on 29 February 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

They are twins, being older by a few minutes/hours doesn't matter. "I know more because I was born ten minutes earlier so you should listen to me" -  Jaime would laugh in her face.

Really, you know this how, exactly? I have always seen Cersei as the stronger twin; Jaime is simply happy going wherever she is, whereas it is Cersei who attempts to take control of her life, and makes the best of her situations. Again, people are going off at each other for differing opinions. Without knowing exactly how things panned out when they were younger, we can only makes guesses, and my interpretation is that perhaps Cersei did exert a little control over Jaime. Cersei also manipulated Lancel. Like I've said, and people have so interestingly ignored, if Lancel were a young woman, and Cersei a man, more people would be willing to call that abuse, or manipulation at the least, and condemn the man for it. That's sexism right there.

[David Selig]

I am not saying that Cersei wasn't the dominant person in the relationship while they were children, that's likely. But it wasn't because she was older by 10 minutes, this doesn't make sense. to me What difference does that make in terms of life experience and wisdom - none at all.

Edited by David Selig, 01 March 2012 - 06:40 AM.

[Ygrain]

brashcandy, on 29 February 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Cersei is very capable of using sex to manipulate, but I dispute that theory that she did this with Jaime. She very much enjoys having sex with him and Jaime's decision to join the KG was based on a whole host of factors, and just because Cersei may have suggested something to him doesn't equate to manipulation. Men are capable of making their own decisions, and this image of the scheming woman with the man-trap vagina is ludicrous and puzzling. If Jaime is too weak willed to represent his own interests, then that's on Jaime, not Cersei. Same goes for Lancel.

Initiating sex with the idea of making the person "soften" to your demands is manipulation, and it does not exclude pleasure on Cersei's part - people rarely have only one reason for what they do.

Queen Cersei I, on 29 February 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Manipulating someone with consensual sex does not = sexual abuse. Though the book does demonize Cersei at extrordinary length for her sexual activities (far more than is dedicated to any other character or actual sexual crimes like rape and domestic abuse), sleeping with a guy to get something from his is not the same as raping a young boy, a girl, sexually abusing someone in some way. It is offensive to compare the two. The boy pleasure slaves murdered by Vic are no doubt victims of repeated rapes; Osney Kettleblack and Jaime Lannister are not.

I never meant to imply they were on the same level, but for me, they are on the same side of the scale - wrong.

Lord Littlefinger, on 01 March 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I don't remember Petyr ever even being in the room with Jeyne.  Is he responsible what every man in 7 kingdoms would do with her?

He is responsible for placing her in a brothel, having her "trained" as a sex slave, and selling her off to a family infamous for ruthlessness (not please that I give him the benefit of doubt, that he probably didn't know of Ramsay's sadism, though I do wonder whether this may have been the main reason for her "training")

[Dracarya]

David Selig, on 01 March 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I am not saying that Cersei wasn't the dominant person in the relationship while they were children, that's likely. But it wasn't because she was older by 10 minutes, this doesn't make sense. to me What difference does that make in terms of life experience and wisdom - none at all.

I meant that in the way that children would see it. I don't know if you have siblings, but I am the oldest, and I always said to my little sister "I'm older, I know what I'm talking about", or something similar. Granted the age gap is bigger between us than that between Jaime and Cersei, but as a child, Cersei might have used it to get what she wanted, and Jaime, as most younger children do, and because of how forceful Cersei can be, would have gone along with it. Of course it doesn't make sense to adults, but when you're a child, things are (apparently) simpler, so it might be that something along those lines was used to initiate sex between the twins. I don't know how it happened, this is my assumption based on the two characters.

[Dracarya]

Ygrain, on 01 March 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

He is responsible for placing her in a brothel, having her "trained" as a sex slave, and selling her off to a family infamous for ruthlessness (not please that I give him the benefit of doubt, that he probably didn't know of Ramsay's sadism, though I do wonder whether this may have been the main reason for her "training")

I wasn't aware of this, very interesting. Littlefinger is such a difficult character to judge.

Thought the rest of your post was spot-on, btw.

[David Selig]

Fire&Blood, on 01 March 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I meant that in the way that children would see it. I don't know if you have siblings, but I am the oldest, and I always said to my little sister "I'm older, I know what I'm talking about", or something similar. Granted the age gap is bigger between us than that between Jaime and Cersei, but as a child, Cersei might have used it to get what she wanted, and Jaime, as most younger children do, and because of how forceful Cersei can be, would have gone along with it. Of course it doesn't make sense to adults, but when you're a child, things are (apparently) simpler, so it might be that something along those lines was used to initiate sex between the twins. I don't know how it happened, this is my assumption based on the two characters.

I see your point, but it's different with twins. An year or more difference as with other siblings is one thing -  it's normal to be a big deal when you are a kid. But 15 minutes or an hour is totally different.

I guess it's time to mention that I am a twin and younger (by 5 minutes) than my brother, yet this has never ever mattered to us at all, even when we were kids. I am not saying my experience is universal, but still it seems illogical to me for twins to behave this way. If the Lannister twins were of the same sex and one of them was the designated heir based on being earlier, I could see it being a factor the earlier birth based on that, but that's not the case either.

[FanTasy]

Queen Cersei I, on 29 February 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Cersei never, ever abused Jaime. Ever.

I can see your point. But I always wondered if Cersei thought about what she was doing to her brother, using the sexual hold she had on him as she did.

Of course Jaime should have known better. Both proceeded in an unnatural (considered in the culture where they lived) and damaging relationship.
Jaime allowed himself to be put into a position where he had to give up his birth right, his chance on having a legitimate child.
The first pregnancy may have been an accident, but for the next children Cersei took care that Jaime was the biological father. She wanted to have him at their birth, but did not want him bonding with his children. Of course this was Jaime's fault choice as well: he willingly proceeded.

I'm not sure this can qualify as sexual abuse of each other. But I thought it might qualify as psychological abuse, using a strong sexual bond.

ETA Don't know if female readers will read this differently as male readers. I sure hope not.
Personally I was not offended by it. It made Cersei's and Jaime's characters more compelling.

Edited by FanTasy, 01 March 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Dracarya]

David Selig, on 01 March 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

I see your point, but it's different with twins. An year or more difference as with other siblings is one thing -  it's normal to be a big deal when you are a kid. But 15 minutes or an hour is totally different.

I guess it's time to mention that I am a twin and younger (by 5 minutes) than my brother, yet this has never ever mattered to us at all, even when we were kids. I am not saying my experience is universal, but still it seems illogical to me for twins to behave this way. If the Lannister twins were of the same sex and one of them was the designated heir based on being earlier, I could see it being a factor the earlier birth based on that, but that's not the case either.

Fair point, and thank you for sharing your own experience. But clearly you're not Cersei or Jaime Maybe if you enjoyed exercising control, you'd use it Like I said, pure speculation on my part. But people have been saying how Jaime is physically stronger, the one who pesters/approaches Cersei for sex, etc, but this must have been brought about by some actions on her part. Personally I do see her as playing a bit hard-to-get, hitting him with 'feeble fists' and always saying no, yet she enjoys it and as someone else said, made sure that Jaime fathered her children. I definitely think she exercised control over him; abuse is a bit of a serious word to just throw about, but there was some psychological abuse in there I think. How else would she have convinced Jaime to listen to her and continue with the incest, when their mother told them not to? (Which I think is the case, not the other way round.)

[The Third Reed]

Ygrain, on 01 March 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

He is responsible for placing her in a brothel, having her "trained" as a sex slave, and selling her off to a family infamous for ruthlessness (not please that I give him the benefit of doubt, that he probably didn't know of Ramsay's sadism, though I do wonder whether this may have been the main reason for her "training")

He's responsible for placing her in a brothel (by which he probably saved her life), and having her train as a prostitute. There is no evidence (AFAIK) to suggest he was responsible for selling her off to Ramsay.

Edited by The Third Reed, 01 March 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Dena]

The Third Reed, on 01 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

He's responsible for placing her in a brothel (by which he probably saved her life), and having her train as a prostitute. There is no evidence (AFAIK) to suggest he was responsible for selling her off to Ramsay.

IIRC Tywin says that LF found Arya Stark when Tyrion and others failed, so it was LF who told Tyrion he had Arya Stark, or a girl who could pass as Arya, IMO Jeyne got married with Ramsay because LF choses her to be Arya, although it doesn't mean he knew the what kind of person Ramsay is.

Edited by Dena, 01 March 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[The Third Reed]

Dena, on 01 March 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

IIRC Tywin says that LF found Arya Stark when Tyrion and others failed, so it was LF who told Tyrion he had Arya Stark, or a girl who could pass as Arya, IMO Jeyne got married with Ramsay because LF choses her to be Arya, although it doesn't mean he knew the what kind of person Ramsay is.

Well, there is still little to suggest that the plan was Littlefinger's. In ASOS, Jaime tells Brienne that Jeyne's identity was thought up by Tywin. This is much more likely when we consider the timeframe of what is involved, namely the planning of the Red Wedding. This was conceived by Tywin, Walder and Roose. Littlefinger spent most ASOS away from KL. While Jeyne might be his, there is nothing to suggest that Littlefinger either chose Jeyne or was actively involved in sending her to Ramsay.

I've discussed this in another thread though, so best to stay on topic.

[ledlevee]

Wow everyone has a much different reading of the Cersei/Jaime relationship than I do.  I definitely saw it as being mutual, and I saw Jaime as being the only person Cersei ever truly loved and for Jaime vice versa.  I thought this was sick not only for reasons of incest, but also because it showed that both were only capable of loving themselves, which is why they fell in love with people that were so similar to themselves (twins), and who looked so similar.  This idea that they are both narcissistic had a huge bearing on my reading of the books and my understanding of their characters.  Maybe on rereading it I'll see if it's possible that Cersei was actually manipulating Jaime all along, but on my first reading, I never really got that notion.

[Fragile Bird]

Fire&Blood, on 01 March 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Really, you know this how, exactly? I have always seen Cersei as the stronger twin; Jaime is simply happy going wherever she is, whereas it is Cersei who attempts to take control of her life, and makes the best of her situations. Again, people are going off at each other for differing opinions. Without knowing exactly how things panned out when they were younger, we can only makes guesses, and my interpretation is that perhaps Cersei did exert a little control over Jaime.

I have a very strong opinion on this topic that is not a popular opinion according to what I've read so far, but I think you are far too mild when you say "a little control".  I think Cersei was born with extra testosterone, (people do have different levels, and it shapes their characters) and she has been an aggressive person all her life.

It was Cersei who led Jaime in sexual experimentation - she is the one who dared him to kiss her when they were children.  She obviously had a stronger sexual identity early on.  She dreamed of marriage to Rhaegar, and when that failed, she convinced Jaime to come to that infamous inn where she initiated him into the pleasures of sex.  She wanted to be married to Rhaegar.  She wanted to be queen.  She wasn't "in love" with Jaime, IMO, she needed a substitute for Rhaegar.  She convinces him to join the Kingsguard so that they will be in King's Landing together, and he does.  Look what he gives up.

Why?  Why would he be so enamoured of his sister?  Seventeen years later, in a disgusting dungeon in Riverrun, chained to the wall, unshaven, dirty, stinking, weak, Cat Stark's breath is taken away by Jaime's beauty.  What was he like at 15?  He was a guy who dreamed of being a knight, a hero, a Brynden Tully, an Arthur Dayne, a Rhaegar.  He's 15 and he hasn't had any sexual encounters - we know because he tells us the only woman he's ever had is Cersei.  Women, high born women and girls, serving maids, other men's wives and sisters, must have been falling all over him.  Think of how weak in the knees Sansa is about Joffrey.  And he doesn't care, he's too busy being the best damn Ser knight in Westeros.  And then Cersei introduces him to carnal pleasure and he is done for.

From my POV, it demonstrates his intense loyalty.  He has 2 loves in his life, being a knight and Cersei.  Cersei tells Sansa Jaime has said there are only 2 times he feels alive, in battle and in her bed.  Imagine if some other woman had lured him into bed - I bet he'd be happily married, truely, madly deeply in love, utterly faithful and loyal, the knight the ghost of Joanna talked about, and would have never joined the Kingsguard.  I know guys like that.  They fell in love in high school, married their sweetheart and are living happily ever after.  There aren't a lot of them, but they exist.

2nd Edit:  Like Robb Stark.  He took Jeyne's virginity, he married her.  Jaime would have married Cersei, and if he had had sex with someone else, he would have married her. IMHO.

And as for the sex scene in the sept - that's George being over the top.  But put yourself in Jaime's shoes.  He's been a prisoner for what, 6 months?  9 months?  He's been hunted down during escape, had his sword hand cut off (representing one half of his existence, one half of the time he feels alive) and he goes to find Cersei to confirm he is still alive even while surrounded by death.  There is a reason he has to have sex with Cersei as soon as he can!

Personally, I don't care who someone has sex with.  I see from Wikipedia there are numerous countries where consensual sex between adults, of any kind, is not considered illegal, and the Swiss are actually considering legalizing sibling sex.

But back to Cersei and Jaime - Cersei is the controller, and IMO Cersei made Jaime the person he is.  The sexual person he is.  The person he is is someone who is fiercely loyal, to the point of hot headedness.

Now, I guess I'll sit back and wait for the stuff to hit the fan.

Edit:  One more thing - did Cersei abuse Jaime?  Yes and no.  I think of the traditional sense of abuse, where someone in a position of trust takes advantage of you.  In that sense, yes Cersei abused Jaime.  The beloved sister took him sexually and convinced him to abandon his birth rights.  As time goes by, no, because he loves her and is doing what he does willingly.  But over my lifetime I've seen many couples where one spouse shamelessly uses the other, and we their friends shake our heads and say why do they let themselves be abused by their spouse like that.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 01 March 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[Dracarya]

Fragile Bird, on 01 March 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

<snipped for space>

Might be I was mild because I was sick of all the shit-slinging that goes on around here, but I think you're absolutely right. Now, of course, that will make us sexist, disgusting rapists who demonize Cersei and wish rape and all kinds of horrible things upon her. No. No longer am I taking this.

There isn't much for me to add, because I think you hit the nail on the head. Just a point; she has used her body and sex to her own advantage all her life, so her body is used against her in shame and punishment. She used it to get Robert, yet complained when he 'mauled' her. This is such a touchy subject, because in this day and age I do see marital rape as rape, but in other times, it wasn't as clear-cut. When a woman entered a marriage, she knew she must consummate it, and give birth to heirs. Instead, Cersei procreated with her own brother and killed her husband the king. And I'm supposed to see her as a good person how? And the way Cersei acts and looks upon things actually disgusts me sometimes. She acts as if she's the most innocent, best person in the world, all she does she does for love and the good of her children - bollocks. She's a selfish, manipulate abuser who lets one evil son run riot and psychologically damages the kinder one, blames everything on Tyrion because he's a dwarf (hmm, focusing on looks, maybe the WoS also opens her eyes to how bad that can make someone feel), whips young women for no reason than for them being a whore, buys and sells people as if they were objects (oh but she can't be objectified, as a woman, no no), gives people to Qyburn for torture and fuck knows what else, stands by and allows Sansa, a high-born young lady be beaten and humiliated in public, and threatened with rape... brilliant woman. So why am I not surprised that she initiated the sex with her own brother?

If I see that Jaime forced himself on her again, or anything to that effect, I will pull my hair out. That scene in the sept is exaggerated and again I agree with you, Fragile Bird, that Jaime had been in captivity for a long time, their son had just died, and sometimes people need to have sex to feel alive. It was nowhere near to rape and I think the constant assumptions are offensive to those who have suffered sexual abuse. Cersei initiating sex with Jaime when they were younger? Not abuse, but psychologically damaging. And he could have done anything else he wanted in life - he gave up everything, even his right to be a father, at her say-so. She definitely manipulated and controlled him, and I will stand here and argue it until I'm blue in the face. Someone in the novels commented on Tyrion being Tywin's son, not Jaime - but Cersei is most definitely his daughter.

[ChromeWeasel]

Queen Cersei I, on 29 February 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

It is. And your continued insistance that using sex to manipulate a fully consenting partner is the equivalent of rape and forcible sexual abuse is offensive. It is specifically offensive to those (male and female) who have experienced sexual abuse.

Don't make assumptions about my past, and don't speak in blanket terms for 'people who have experienced sexual abuse.' Just keep to the subject matter. Not only is your comment inappropriate, it's dead wrong. So knock it off.

Quote

Honesly, it seems as though you take issue with the Jaime/ Cersei relationship for personal reasons, uncomfortable with the fact that, as the less enamored partner, Cersei holds more of the power. You equate this with abuse and rape, whereas most rational adults simply would not.

I never said Cersei raped anyone in my comments. Try to stick with what I've actually written. My point was that Cersei sexually abused Lancel, and to a lesser extent Jamie. I'm not at all uncomfortable with the Jamie/Cersei relationship in the way that you're suggesting. They are just characters in a story after all. I'm simply pointing out that Cersei is a manipulative person who has sexually abused her cousin and brother.

Quote

Whether or not Cersei is immoral in her dealings with Jaime is an interesting debate/ discussion. I can accept all different opinions regarding that issue. But your idea that a woman is abusing a man simply for loving him less than he loves her is ridiculous. As is your idea that manipulating someone when they are fully willilng is the same as physically forcing them to have sex.

Here you are setting up a straw man argument. I haven't suggesting that there's an issue with Cersei loving someone else less than she is loved. I pointed out the similarities between Cersei taking advantage of young Lance and Robert taking advantage of Cersei. It's debatable who has more power to resist in either situation. If you don't see the correlation there, that's your loss. But there's no need to create a straw man and construct things that I've never said in hopes of making your argument right.

[Revan Baratheon]

ChromeWeasel, on 01 March 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

I never said Cersei raped anyone in my comments. Try to stick with what I've actually written. My point was that Cersei sexually abused Lancel, and to a lesser extent Jamie. I'm not at all uncomfortable with the Jamie/Cersei
relationship in the way that you're suggesting. They are just characters in a story after all. I'm simply pointing out that Cersei is a manipulative person who has sexually abused her cousin

But...Sexual abuse is rape no?

[Dracarya]

Revan Baratheon, on 01 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

But...Sexual abuse is rape no?

No, come on. Rape is penetration, sexual abuse is up to and including rape. A few definitions:

Quote

Sexual abuse: 1. a statutory offense that provides that it is a crime to knowingly cause another person to engage in an unwanted sexual act by force or threat; "most states have replaced the common law definition of rape with statutes defining sexual assault"
2. when someone in a position of authority or trust forces a person to do something sexual
3. This includes rape and sexual assault or sexual acts to which the vulnerable adult has not, or could not, consent and/or was pressured into consenting.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 01 March 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[Summerqueen]

Fragile Bird and Fire&Blood—
Let me start by saying I don't like Cersei either, and I think that's largely because GRRM ruined her character with her absurd POVs.

But your posts have me shaking my head so much.

It's a crime to initiate sex with men? *files away this knowledge for the future*

Jaime is the one who often seems to come to Cersei for sex. She doesn't usually even cajole or encourage him. Are you saying that she has such a level of control over him that he is not in fact making his own choices to have sex with her? Is she somehow drawing her to him out of will alone? Just because she popped his cherry? Are you saying that a man will have as many women as he possibly can, regardless of character, unless he has suffered some sort of psychological trauma? I'm confused.


I seriously need to re-read the Jaime chapters. Did he say Cersei convinced him to go into the KG? I sort of thought he jumped at the opportunity because Tywin was keeping him and Cersei apart. I'm not sure why I have that impression, so I guess I'll have to pull out the tomes when I get the chance.

I also do not remember Cersei using her body to get Robert. But refresh my memory there as well. I thought their marriage was something Tywin arranged. Incidentally, if you use your body once to "get" a man, does that mean your willingness to have him whenever he wants for all time is a given??

I think forcing yourself on your sister in a sept is "somewhere" near rape... Why do you think it is "nowhere near rape"?

[David Selig]

Quote

I also do not remember Cersei using her body to get Robert.

That's because it never happened.

[Revan Baratheon]

Summerqueen, on 01 March 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Fragile Bird and Fire&Blood—
Let me start by saying I don't like Cersei either, and I think that's largely because GRRM ruined her character with her absurd POVs.


But your posts have me shaking my head so much.

It's a crime to initiate sex with men? *files away this knowledge for the future*


Jaime is the one who often seems to come to Cersei for sex. She doesn't usually even cajole or encourage him. Are you saying that she has such a level of control over him that he is
not in fact making his own choices to have sex with her? Is she somehow drawing her to him
out of will alone? Just because she popped his cherry? Are you saying that a man will have as
many women as he possibly can, regardless of character, unless he has suffered some sort of psychological trauma? I'm confused.


I seriously need to re-read the Jaime chapters. Did he say Cersei convinced him to go into the KG? I sort of thought he jumped at the opportunity because Tywin was keeping him and
Cersei apart. I'm not sure why I have that impression, so I guess I'll have to pull out the tomes when I get the chance.


I also do not remember Cersei using her body to get Robert. But refresh my memory there as well. I thought their marriage was something
Tywin arranged. Incidentally, if you use your body once to "get" a man, does that mean your willingness to have him whenever he wants for all time is a given??

I think forcing yourself on your sister in a sept is "somewhere" near rape... Why do you think it is "nowhere near rape"?

your post is more or less accurate,however i just bolded a few inaccurate parts.


Cersei always encouraged Jaime for sex.Once she came to him dressed as a peasant to entice him(she would also watch him in tourneys disguised as a smallfolk)She asked him to fuck her when Robert had gone to visit the bedchamber of one of his bannermen's daughter who was a childhood friend of his.That was the night Joffrey was concieved.She also had him the morning of her wedding.

When he was around 16,she told him Tywin's plans to marry them both off and nagged him to join the KG so they could be together. She gave him pleasure that whole night..everytime he tried to sleep she would wake him up.. ."by morning he was ready to give up CR for her" Cersei promised to do the rest..and got him in
the KG list.

That incident at the sept was definetly not rape cause if u reread it,ull see phrases like "Yes!Yes! Put it there..thats where u belong brother..hurry now.". u get the idea.