401 replies to this topic

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Fire&Blood, on 01 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

I got the same, but clearly my views are warped, so I'd be worried if I were you Some women do "get off" on role-playing like that; it's nothing to be ashamed about and it certainly doesn't mean they want to be raped, they just enjoy the.. rougher side of sex. At the end of the day, it was consensual, adult sex and if they wanted to go at it in a different way, cool. Not comparable to Dany and Drogo whatsoever.

I figured it was along the same sort of line as the wildlings thinking. If you want me, you have to be strong enough to take me sort of thing. It didn't come across as overtly rape like,

As for Jaime and Cersei, if I remember correctly, she refuses him in the tower where Bran sees them having sex as well. It seemed, to me at least, that Cersei didn't refuse because she wasn't interested in sleeping with him, but because she was worried they would get caught. I guess it came across as Cersei being willing, but needing to be coerced. He didn't force her in the way that I'd generally consider rape, with her kicking and screaming for help. The fact she got enjoyment from it seems to void it as rape, in the obvious sense at least.

[Skeksi]

Just to be clear, one can still experience physical pleasure from rape- it's entirely possible, and doesn't make it any less rape (unless you meant within the context of Westeros, where I agree it is probably looked at from that angle).

That scene in the chapel is a grey area. I didn't get the feeling that Cersei didn't want Jaime, and didn't want the sex, but that she was worried about being discovered, or that it wasn't appropriate at that time. It doesn't make her refusal invalid, of course, and by all rights, Jaime should have listened to her, but they do read very differently from her memories of Robert. She seems to gain much more pleasure, and have much warmer feelings towards Jaime, I'm not sure if this is meant to read as Jaime being impetuous, compared to Cersei being more calculated and cautious, but I can see the issue in having her saying no, and why people are uncomfortable with the scene.

Also glad that I wasn't the only one who thought that about Asha and Qarl...

[Queen Cersei I]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 01 March 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm not a married woman and I completely agree with your interpretation. It never occurred to me that it was anything else when I first read it. That was one of the least disturbing sex scenes from GRRM imo, along with Arianne and Arys.

Yes, I assumed that it was completely consensual BDSM stuff, as I tried to make clear in my post. (I guess I didn't succeed in doing that.)

What I found somewhat problematic (not offensive or even truly disturbing, merely problematic) is that Asha, like so many of the other women in these books, gets off on being sexually dominated. In a scene that was in some ways similar, Cersei gets off on being quasi raped by Jaime (it is clearly consensual, but he is very forceful, thinking, imo, creepy thoughts such as "he would not be denied", and Cersei is ostentatiously objecting.) It just strikes me as disturbing that all of the "hot" sex scenes** feature a woman being dominated and getting off on it. Because there is no male equivalent. (Except for Cersei, diddling Taena. But we all know how that is portrayed.) Dany never wanted to tie Daario up, Cersei never wanted to dominate Jaime (in fact, he's the only man she lets dominate her, and-- coincidentally?-- the only man she has pleasurable sex with), Arrianne never wanted to whip Aerys, etc.

Its a minor issue, all in all. However, I was a little annoyed to find that the only truly independent and sexual positively portrayed character in these books has rape fantasies.

Then again, I am being unfair-- since BDSM is very different from rape or anything like it, and Asha was in total control of the situation. And that's cool-- hey, whatever gets her off. I don't take issue with the kink. However, the idea that this is simply "no holds barred adult entertainment" is a bit of a misrepresentation, imo. Though there are numerous scenes of women getting off on being sexually dominated and roughly handled by men, there is no equivalent for men getting off by being dominated and submitting to women.

Not a huge issue, though. And you do have a point-- compared to many of the other sex scenes, this one was downright comforting. (Though "Her cunt became the whole world," was not the most winning line, I.M.O."   )

*Clearly the Cersei/ Jaime sex scene was not meant to be "hot" in the readers eyes, but Cersei was clearly enjoying it....

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 02 March 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Queen Cersei I, on 02 March 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

What I found somewhat problematic (not offensive or even truly disturbing, merely problematic) is that Asha, like so many of the other women in these books, gets off on being sexually dominated. In a scene that was in some ways similar, Cersei gets off on being quasi raped by Jaime (it is clearly consensual, but he is very forceful, thinking, imo, creepy thoughts such as "he would not be denied", and Cersei is ostentatiously objecting.) It just strikes me as disturbing that all of the "hot" sex scenes** feature a woman being dominated and getting off on it. Because there is no male equivalent. (Except for Cersei, diddling Taena. But we all know how that is portrayed.)

I see what you're saying here. I guess when it comes to sex in the stories, as long as it's consensual, I don't really have a problem with the author repeating certain patterns, like women taking submissive roles and liking it. It may be that he's projecting or something. I do think it's unrealistic to only portray submissive women and dominant men, especially since GRRM seems to just throw in a sex scene between anyone and everyone whenever he can. There's plenty of opportunity to diversify things a bit....or um, better yet, just leave the superfluous scenes out all together because they're kind of gross.


Specifically, I think the Asha-Qarl dynamic is fine because even though she's dominated in bed, there doesn't seem to be any of that bleeding out into their actual lives. Asha is the commander of the operation, she's the captain and leader, she gives orders, subordinates, including Qarl take them. I've only read ADWD once and I don't own a copy so correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got from my reading.

Cersei is more problematic (isn't she always?). I think there's enough give and take between her and Jaime where they're both being bossy/pushy, alternating with them submitting more to the other, but the scene between Cersei and Kettleback was disturbing. "Keep the crown on," wtf? I think Cersei is supposed to be set up as someone who's giving away too much of her power in ways that she doesn't realize, but I think that scene was completely unnecessary in order to convey that. We already know what happens because of her sexual bartering with the Kettlebacks, we didn't need that scene to hammer the point in. There's a lot of Cersei stuff that could definitely be the author unwittingly working in sexist tropes because of his own inherent biases and privilege, but the walk of shame makes me say that my jury's out until I see how her story ends. Either way, a lot of her arc and characterization are clunky and flawed.

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Not a huge issue, though. And you do have a point-- compared to many of the other sex scenes, this one was downright comforting. (Though "Her cunt became the whole world," was not the most winning line, I.M.O."   )

Why must you remind me of horrendously awkward things my brain has conveniently repressed or forgotten?

Edited by RevengeOfTheStarks, 02 March 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

Skeksi, on 02 March 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

That scene in the chapel is a grey area. I didn't get the feeling that Cersei didn't want Jaime, and didn't want the sex, but that she was worried about being discovered, or that it wasn't appropriate at that time. It doesn't make her refusal invalid, of course, and by all rights, Jaime should have listened to her, but they do read very differently from her memories of Robert.  

For those of us who get deeply involved in the Sansa re-read, and R+L=J, (now v.21) and were fans of the Sandor thread (shut down at v.19), we see symbolism in everything.  GRRM's text can be very rich and overwhelming, so you can re-read and re-read and see new lines of thought with every repeated viewing.

I'll repeat an earlier post here, a la the way those other threads are written.  Cersei has said Jaime told her he only feels alive when he's in battle or when he's in bed with her.  The sept scene happens after his right hand has been cut off, symbolically meaning half his life has been destroyed.  He at first, after the event, considered it his whole life destroyed, and told Brienne he was dying - Brienne kick-started him back to life by telling him he had other things to live for.

If the other half of his life is his relationship with Cersei, he had a deeply intense (and really, non-sexual) reason to find Cersei as soon as he got back to King's Landing and have sex with her, to re-affirm the fact that he is alive, even while surrounded by death ie his dead son.  Once again, GRRM's use of symbolism - Cersei is having her period, so while Jaime is having sex with her she is actually bleeding on him, on the altar, on herself.  Bleeding is normally a sign of death, not life, so you could say the sex in the sept is the beginning of the end of the Jaime/Cersei relationship.  In fact it is (don't have the book here, but I'm pretty sure) the last time they have sex, so the foreshadowing is correct.

The issue of rape/not rape is not the important issue here, it's the New Jaime arc.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Fragile Bird, on 02 March 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

<snip>

Wow...that's on another level. Is this the last time Jaime and Cersei have sex? If so then i definitely fits with the idea of the death of their relationship.

[Ygrain]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 02 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Wow...that's on another level. Is this the last time Jaime and Cersei have sex? If so then i definitely fits with the idea of the death of their relationship.

As far as I can recall, it is. I never thought about it in a symbolic way but if so, it is very cleverly done. Even without the symbolism, it is a very powerful plot device - an attempt to pick up where they stopped about, how long? a year ago?, not realizing they both have changed and that it won't work, for various reasons. It is well counterballanced by the scene when Cersei comes to seduce Jaime at the KG tower to bend him to her will and is refused for exactly the same reasons as she tried to refuse him at the sept - unsafe and inappropriate place. A place that, with his character development twist towards honour and duty, is sort of more sacred to him than the sept.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ygrain, on 01 March 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

Initiating sex with the idea of making the person "soften" to your demands is manipulation, and it does not exclude pleasure on Cersei's part - people rarely have only one reason for what they do.


I never meant to imply they were on the same level, but for me, they are on the same side of the scale - wrong.


He is responsible for placing her in a brothel, having her "trained" as a sex slave, and selling her off to a family infamous for ruthlessness (not please that I give him the benefit of doubt, that he probably didn't know of Ramsay's sadism, though I do wonder whether this may have been the main reason for her "training")

They don't have slavery in Westeros.

[Fragile Bird]

RevengeOfTheStarks, on 02 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Wow...that's on another level. Is this the last time Jaime and Cersei have sex? If so then i definitely fits with the idea of the death of their relationship.

Read the Sansa re-read, or go and read any of the Sandor Clegane threads, and you'll see how much you can find.  In fact, if you go to the sansa re-read and just look at the most recent 2 pages with the summary of the scene where the Battle of the Blackwater victory is being celebrated and 600 new knights created, you'll be amazed at the layers of symbolism and foreshadowing.

@ Lord LIttlefinger's Lash

Thank you for changing your avatar.  The last one was funny, but I was beginning to take that finger personally for some reason....

[Queen Cersei I]

Fragile Bird, on 02 March 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

The issue of rape/not rape is not the important issue here,

Fragile Bird, on 02 March 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

The issue of rape/not rape is not the important issue here, it's the New Jaime arc.

A few questions-- in an earlier post, you accuse Cersei of betraying Jaime (and abusing him) for having a schoolgirl crush on Rhaegar. Your opinion runs that... well, since she had feelings for another man and wanted to marry him (someone who was not her own biological brother), she never loved Jaime.

Now, I've heard all this before and have to admit to finding it fairly ridiculous. I have scoffed at people saying, "Cersei was always betraying Jaime in her heart," and thus was bad. If you argued that Cersei's early crush on another man, or her ambitions to be queen, meant that she "never really loved" Jaime, then I'd respect, but not necessarily disagree with you.

But instead you actually argue that Cersei's not loving Jaime as much as he loved her, and her occasional use of consensual sex to manipulate him is equivalent with abuse. I can only speculate that you have never been physically or sexually abused in any respect, and do not fully understand what it entails.

[Fragile Bird]

@ Queen Cersei 1

Fragile Bird, on 01 March 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Edit:  One more thing - did Cersei abuse Jaime?  Yes and no.  I think of the traditional sense of abuse, where someone in a position of trust takes advantage of you.  In that sense, yes Cersei abused Jaime.  The beloved sister took him sexually and convinced him to abandon his birth rights.  As time goes by, no, because he loves her and is doing what he does willingly.  But over my lifetime I've seen many couples where one spouse shamelessly uses the other, and we their friends shake our heads and say why do they let themselves be abused by their spouse like that.

I think you are confusing me with someone else.  The above is what I said about the issue of Cersei abusing Jaime.

Edit:  Sorry, computer problems with the website.

What I said, and meant, was Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar.  Her father and aunt promised she was going to marry him.  Rhaegar was handsome, desirable, and the woman who married him would be queen.  Aerys said marrying the daughter of his Hand was not good enough for his son.  She was not obsessed with or loyal to Jaime.  There was no betrayal of Jaime when Tywin tried to marry her off to Rhaegar, Jaime was off being a squire at Crakenhall.

Jaime, in the meantime, was obsessed with being the finest knight in Westeros, someone like Arthur Dayne or Brynden Tully, or even Rhaegar himself.  Both Cersei and Jaime are reported to be stunningly beautiful youths.  We know from reading the books that young lordlings are playing the field before they get married.  Brandon is sleeping with any girl who'll lift her skirt, including higher born ladies like Lady Dunstin, and apparently, Ashara Dayne, and Robert Baratheon is well on the way to producing those 16 or 17 bastards.  What is Jaime doing - becoming the best young knight in the land.  If he is so stunningly beautiful, (not to mention the oldest son of the richest family in Westeros, a nice combination of looks, skills and riches) he must have women throwing themselves at him left, right and centre, but we know that he has no sexual experience until Cersei seduces him.  And not only that, but in the 17 years between the seduction at the inn and the start of AGOT, and for that matter, until the end of ADWD, Jaime has never had another sexual partner.

Ergo, my quote above.  Cersei was his beloved sister, and she used him for the reason, IMHO, that she was pissed off Rhaegar married Elia instead of her, and she wanted to be sexually active.  I really don't think the stable boy was a realistic option in Tyrion's Tywin's Casterly Rock, or in King's Landing as the daughter of the Hand.  To equate the fact that one partner in a sexual relationship does not love the other as much as the other with abuse is nonsense.

To suggest that I have never been physically or sexually abused is also nonsense - you have no idea who I am or what I have been through, and it is a personal attack that is not only baseless but totally out of place in these threads, which are opinions readers of the books have about imaginary characters.

People get so serious about these books.  Really, we're all lovers of GRRM's work.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 02 March 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[jarl the climber]

I'm male and because of that I've stayed off of this thread but from reading the posts that have been placed here it seems like these books make you womenfolk argumenetive and angry and it seems like you get wrapped up in the sexual relationships of the various characters a little to much and are maybe a little to judgemental but thats just my opinion.

[Queen Cersei I]

Ygrain, on 01 March 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:


I never meant to imply they were on the same level, but for me, they are on the same side of the scale - wrong.


To me that's like saying rape and stealing a candy bar from a drug store are "on the same side of the scale."

Regardless of how wrong you find it, manipulating fully consenting partners is not equivalent with rape. And I am going to have to politely repeat something I said to another poster-- comparing the two is downright offensive. Profoundly so to anyone who's ever been raped or in an abusive relationship, because that is not the same thing as being manipulated with sex. When one is manipulated with sex, one has a choice. In cases of rape and abuse, one does not.

Though GRRM certainly spends more time demonizing Cersei for her sexual "crimes" than he does with Tyrion and Theon for their actual rapes. (So much so that at least one reader questioned whether what Theon did to Kyra—in which he notes he “took out his frustrations on her’, and she exits the room, weeping hysterically and covered in bite marks, scratches, and bruises—was “really” rape.)

There is also the issue of whether or not the Cersei/ Jaime relationship is one in which Cersei holds the power. Looking at the portrayal of the relationship in the first three books, I'd say hell no-- and that to say so would be utterly ridiculous.

What is between them is a complex, supremely unhealthy relationship, where both partners are constantly struggling for domination. In particular, in books one through three, it is clear that Jaime has made Cersei everything, his whole world, and want-- nay, demands-- the same from her. This is made to look (suddenly) innocent and romantic in AFFC, but in the first three books it is portrayed (far more realistically) as nothing of the sort.

For instance, in the first book, Jaime actually expresses envy of Cersei's own children, who are taking away Cersei from him. When she does something that implies her deep concern for them (for in books one through thee, before Cersei becomes an amoral sociopath, it is clear that Cersei loves her kids more than anything, with Jaime in second place), Jaime is annoyed, disturbed, and yes, jealous. For instance, consider the following: “Mothers.” The man made the word sound like a curse. “I think birthing does something to your minds. You are all mad.” He laughed. It was a bitter sound. “ Notice how Bran comments that he makes the word sound like the foulest curse word. And to him it probably is, because those little brats are taking Cersei's attention away from where it should be-- upon him. “I think the birthing does something to your brains.” In other words—how dare Cersei love anyone more than him, Jaime? Hasn’t he unhealthily focused on her as his number one obsession and main pivot of morality since he was disappointed by his failed knightly ideals at the age of 17?

Later, his scene with Bran, is a clear indication of how he (like her) is constantly struggling to one up his lover, gain moral superiority, prove that he is the more loving partner and that now she “owes” him. In contrast to popular belief, Cersei does not (as she does in the series) urge Jaime evilly to throw Bran. In fact, she only says (once) “he saw us.” *

Again, consider the following:
He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.
“So he did,” the man said.
Bran’s fingernails started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”
Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up on the ledge. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”
“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. He let go sheepishly.
The man looked over to the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said, with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.
Screaming, Bran went backward out the window into the empty air. There was nothing to grab onto….”

Note here how after Cersei says, he saw us, Jaime replies casually, “So he did.” Then he asks how old Bran is, looks at Cersei, and says the infamous “the things I do for love” line. Now, IMO, there is a lot going on in this scene. But clearly, Jaime knows he’s going to throw Bran from the moment Cersei says “he saw us.” (And, contrary once again to popular claims, Cersei herself did not want Bran thrown.) In this light, Jaime’s questioning Bran as to his age seems odd, as does his look of loathing towards Cersei. IMO, Jaime asks Bran’s age to tell Cersei, “see, you see how much I love you? You see how much I’m willing to do for you? I’ll kill this seven year old boy for you.”

He uses a violent act to—through his own decision— demonstrate the depth of his devotion to Cersei. A devotion that, without any interference of Cersei’s supposedly evil sexual manipulations, is clearly quite sick. Here and elsewhere, Jaime’s implication is that Cersei had better be willing to show she loves him just as he’s shown his devotion to her here. It’s a sick, unhealthy relationship based not on pure devotion (as Jaime’s supposedly becomes in AFFC) but on secrets, mutual dependence, and unhealthy projection. (Having lost his ideals at 17, Jaime projects a bunch of stuff into Cersei that no breathing, flesh and blood woman could possibly relate to.)

To me, it all goes back to the scene between the two in the HBO series. In one scene, Jaime roughly grabs Cersei, holds her against him, and hisses that he will kill every single person in the world until only him and her are left, if that’s what it will take. IMO, this perfectly sums up the mutually “abusive” Cersei/ Jaime relationship we see in books one through three—Jaime’s “love” for Cersei may be true, but it sure is sick, obsessive, and destructive.

[Raksha the Demon]

jarl the climber, on 02 March 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm male and because of that I've stayed off of this thread but from reading the posts that have been placed here it seems like these books make you womenfolk argumenetive and angry and it seems like you get wrapped up in the sexual relationships of the various characters a little to much and are maybe a little to judgemental but thats just my opinion.

For a fictional character, Cersei is quite the lightning rod, isn't she...For the record, I try not to get too angry about ASoIaF.  I also try not to get wrapped up in the sexual relationships that much; especially since GRRM's descriptions of sexual interaction tend to make me want to quickly turn the page or get to another chapter.  As for arguing, I have no objection to reasoned discussion and debate.  

[Fragile Bird]

jarl the climber, on 02 March 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm male and because of that I've stayed off of this thread but from reading the posts that have been placed here it seems like these books make you womenfolk argumenetive and angry and it seems like you get wrapped up in the sexual relationships of the various characters a little to much and are maybe a little to judgemental but thats just my opinion.

I view the world of the Westeros website like a great big resort place swimming pool, with lots of room for all kinds of people and their opinions.  Some people like to spend more time in the deep end than others.

The thing about the sexual relationships is, huge plot points turn on them  The "kidnapping" of Lyanna triggers all kinds of events that lead to the end of the Targ dynasty;  LF's hurts from his teen years appear to motivate his far reaching actions;  Robb's marriage to Jeyne leads to the Red Wedding;  Arianne lures Oakheart to break his vows with sex, leading to the tragic events surrounding the kidnapping or Myrcella; and I could go on and on.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 03 March 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Queen Cersei I]

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@ Queen Cersei 1
I think you are confusing me with someone else.The above is what I said about the issue of Cersei abusing Jaime.

No, I'm pretty sure I have the right person. I was referring to the following myself, part of the quote you've already posted:

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It was Cersei who led Jaime in sexual experimentation - she is the one who dared him to kiss her when they were children. She obviously had a stronger sexual identity early on. She dreamed of marriage to Rhaegar, and when that failed, she convinced Jaime to come to that infamous inn where she initiated him into the pleasures of sex. She wanted to be married to Rhaegar. She wanted to be queen. She wasn't "in love" with Jaime, IMO, she needed a substitute for Rhaegar. She convinces him to join the Kingsguard so that they will be in King's Landing together, and he does. Look what he gives up. Why? Why would he be so enamoured of his sister?

Now, unless there are two fragile birds, I am pretty sure I have the right person. "
Anyway, I was referring to the arguments that you rehash in the following post... I'll just refer to the first one, since they seem basically the same (I.M.O.)

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It was Cersei who led Jaime in sexual experimentation - she is the one who dared him to kiss her when they were children.She obviously had a stronger sexual identity early on. She dreamed of marriage to Rhaegar, and when that failed, she convinced Jaime to come to that infamous inn where she initiated him into the pleasures of sex. She wanted to be married to Rhaegar. She wanted to be queen. She wasn't "in love" with Jaime, IMO, she needed a substitute for Rhaegar. She convinces him to join the Kingsguard so that they will be in King's Landing together, and he does. Look what he gives up. Why? Why would he be so enamoured of his sister?

These theories about gender and testosterone levels are certainly interesting, however, what you say here is starkly contradicted by the text itself in various places. A few issues:

1. "It was Cersei who led Jaime in sexual experimentation" - this does not go along with anything we see in the text itself. The claims of Fire&amp;blood and others that Cersei somehow seductively brainwashed Jaime into thinking that "incest was not really wrong" have no basis in the text. Cersei tells Ned that her and Jaime have "been as one" since childhood, and the text itself bears it out. The sexual attraction between the two seems to have been something that has been in place from the womb. (If you'll excuse how ridiculous that sounds.)

Jaime thinks on how they have been sexually "experimenting" and imitating that animals since they were children. There is no indication that there was any one ringleader, or that Cersei ever at any point pressured Jaime to do anything sexually that he didn't already fully want to do. Nor is there even much evidence at all that she was the initiator of most of their activities. All indicators point to their connection being innate, early formed, and utterly mutual. They considered themselves as "two people in the same body" until fairly recently.

2. "She obviously had a stronger sexual identity early on." There is really nothing to back this up. Again, the sexual attraction (perhaps obsession) is portrayed as intense and mutual.

3. "She dreamed of marriage to Rhaegar, and when that failed, she convinced Jaime to come to that infamous inn where she initiated him into the pleasures of sex." They initiate each other into the pleasures of sex. Cersei comes to Jaime dressed as a serving maid. (He notes that that only served to inflame his passion.) The sex they have is fully consensual. Besides the fact that she came to him, there is no evidence whatsoever that Cersei was the primary instigator. There is no evidence that Jaime was pressured, coerced; he remembers the night as one of pure pleasure and passion."

4. "She dreamed of marriage to Rhaegar, and when that failed, she convinced Jaime to come to that infamous inn where she initiated him into the pleasures of sex. She wanted to be married to Rhaegar. She wanted to be queen. She wasn't "in love" with Jaime, IMO, she needed a substitute for Rhaegar."
She was clearly in love with Jaime. She was also clearly "in love" with Rhaegar in the childish, silly way Sansa was "in love" with Joffrey. It was a childish, puppy love that Cersei idealizes later for the same reason Robert idealizes his dreams of Lyanna-- for the sake of telling herself that it all could have been different, better, if she'd been given to a deserving man.

She wants to be queen from the very beginning, to mary Rhaegar and be his queen. She also clearly and undeniably loves Jaime. She is afraid of hurting his feelings when he asks her about the picture of her and Rhaegar at age 10.

The idea that she is using him as a "Rhaegar substitute" is also fairly ridiculous. The two have been sexually experimenting together since early childhood, years and years before Cersei met Rhaegar at age 10. The consumation of their relationship at age 15 is merely the logical conclusion of their lifelong sexual experimentation.

5."She wanted to be married to Rhaegar.[/i] She wanted to be queen. She wasn't "in love"; with Jaime, IMO, she needed a substitute for Rhaegar. She convinces him to join the Kingsguard so that they will be in King's Landing together, and he does." And also: "In that sense, yes Cersei abused Jaime. The beloved sister took him sexually and convinced him to abandon his birth rights."
Yes. But I'm still not sure how this equals sexual abuse or an abusive relationship. Furthermore, Cersei is trying to convince Jaime to join the kingsguard so they can be together. Something she shows every indication of wanting, as does he. Evil manipulation? Cersei is certainly capable of that, but I can't see this case as one such instance, sorry.

As for the truly shocking sacrifice Cersei "makes" Jaime make... I don't see that either. His entire life, Jaime has drempt of knights and knighthood. He has always been infatuated with heroes like Arthur Danyne and the kingsguard. Meanwhile, he has shown little to no interest (or capacity) for being a highborn lord. When Cersei "makes" him join the kingsguard, she really only encourages him to take the career/ life path he has always wanted, rather than the one that has clearly never interested him. His proclamation that "he'd done everything for Cersei" and given up all for her in AFFC does not really jive with everything we've learned of him in earlier books. He may have sacrificed" Casterly Rock for her, but it must be said that up until his breakthrough he had never shown any sign whatsoever of wanting it.

Did Jaime "love Cersei more than she loved him?" Perhaps. But that does not mean that Cersei ever abused Jaime, sexually or otherwise. Nor does that mean that the relationship itself was abusive. Sad for Jaime, certainly, but not abusive. It is hard to be with someone and find that they do not love you as you love them, that they have been unfaithful, that they have desired others, or a combination of all of these things. But that does not equal abuse.

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To equate the fact that one partner in a sexual relationship does not love the other as much as the other with abuse is nonsense.

I agree. But that appeared to be what you were doing here:

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- did Cersei abuse Jaime? Yes and no. I think of the traditional sense of abuse, where someone in a position of trust takes advantage of you. In that sense, yes Cersei abused Jaime. The beloved sister took him sexually and convinced him to abandon his birth rights. As time goes by, no, because he loves her and is doing what he does willingly. But over my lifetime I&amp;amp;#39;ve seen many couples where one spouse shamelessly uses the other, and we their friends shake our heads and say why do they let themselves be abused by their spouse like that.

Or so it seemed to me.

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To suggest that I have never been physically or sexually abused is also nonsense - you have no idea who I am or what I have been through, and it is a personal attack that is not only baseless but totally out of place in these threads, which are opinions readers of the books have about imaginary characters.

I never made a personal attack. I merely implied that your frequent implications that Cersei somehow abused Jaime were ridiculous, and seemed based on a very tenuous understanding of what sexual abuse entailed.

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People get so serious about these books.Really, we're all lovers of GRRM "

I am certainly not upset.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 03 March 2012 - 01:42 AM.

[Catastrophe]

Queen Cersei I, on 02 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

To me that's like saying rape and stealing a candy bar from a drug store are "on the same side of the scale."

Regardless of how wrong you find it, manipulating fully consenting partners is not equivalent with rape. And I am going to have to politely repeat something I said to another poster-- comparing the two is downright offensive. Profoundly so to anyone who's ever been raped or in an abusive relationship, because that is not the same thing as being manipulated with sex. When one is manipulated with sex, one has a choice. In cases of rape and abuse, one does not.

It's more like saying rape and stealing, period, are on the same side of the scale. Like theft, using sex to manipulate someone is wrong, but exactly how wrong it is can vary from case to case. Sexually manipulating someone because you're frustrated and want to get laid isn't all that bad, I suppose that would be analogous to stealing a candy bar. Sexually manipulating someone to spite a former or current lover is significantly worse, just as grand larceny is worse than petty theft. Sexually manipulating someone to commit murder, torture, treason, and other heinous crimes is utterly despicable, and at that point I'd agree that it is just as serious a crime as rape.

Queen Cersei I, on 02 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Though GRRM certainly spends more time demonizing Cersei for her sexual "crimes" than he does with Tyrion and Theon for their actual rapes. (So much so that at least one reader questioned whether what Theon did to Kyra—in which he notes he “took out his frustrations on her’, and she exits the room, weeping hysterically and covered in bite marks, scratches, and bruises—was “really” rape.)

This is ridiculous. I never agreed with the people calling Robert and Tyrion rapists, but I'll admit that in their cases, there's at least enough evidence to make an argument for it. There's no evidence whatsoever for Theon being a rapist. Kyra had been a willing lover to him before, and just because he was especially rough with her one night doesn't mean that he raped her. There's absolutely no reason to assume that what happened there was anything other than consentual.

By the way, I'm not a Theon fan by any means. I think he's an unrepentant murderer and an all-around terrible person, and I personally see him as being much worse than other "gray" characters like Jaime, Tyrion, and Sandor. I just don't see any reason to assume he's a rapist. He's already a loathesome enough individual as it is, there's no need to make him out to be even more horrible.

I actually find it a little offensive when people try to broaden the definition of rape that much, since it seems almost like they're diminishing the severity of the actual crime. I know that's definitely not your intent here, that's just how it comes across to me.

Queen Cersei I, on 02 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

There is also the issue of whether or not the Cersei/ Jaime relationship is one in which Cersei holds the power. Looking at the portrayal of the relationship in the first three books, I'd say hell no-- and that to say so would be utterly ridiculous.

What is between them is a complex, supremely unhealthy relationship, where both partners are constantly struggling for domination. In particular, in books one through three, it is clear that Jaime has made Cersei everything, his whole world, and want-- nay, demands-- the same from her. This is made to look (suddenly) innocent and romantic in AFFC, but in the first three books it is portrayed (far more realistically) as nothing of the sort.

...

To me, it all goes back to the scene between the two in the HBO series. In one scene, Jaime roughly grabs Cersei, holds her against him, and hisses that he will kill every single person in the world until only him and her are left, if that’s what it will take. IMO, this perfectly sums up the mutually “abusive” Cersei/ Jaime relationship we see in books one through three—Jaime’s “love” for Cersei may be true, but it sure is sick, obsessive, and destructive.

This is a very good summary of Jaime and Cersei's relationship. A lot of people tend to oversimplify it, making Cersei out to be this manipulative bitch who was only using Jaime, but it's a lot more complex than that. I definitely think that Cersei is a more disturbed person than Jaime overall, but to act like she was pure evil and he was completely innocent is ignoring the facts. People forget that pushing Bran out that window was completely Jaime's fault, Cersei had wanted to spare his life. I also think Cersei truly loved and desired Jaime, even if she wasn't nearly as obsessed with him as he was with her; I strongly disagree with the notion that she was just manipulating him the way she manipulated the Kettleblacks. Their relationship was an extremely unhealthy one based in narcissism, but it was still genuine on both their parts.

As I've said before, my problem with Cersei's sexuality never had anything to do with her and Jaime's trysts. It was all of Cersei's other relationships that I found disgusting, since in those cases she actually was just using sex purely as a way of controlling and manipulating people.

[Fragile Bird]

@ Queen Cersei 1

Don't know if it's you're computer or something weird in the transmission to the Westeros website, but your post is virtually unreadable.  You should report it and have it deleted and try again.

I did see you were referring to the second post, not the first, and when I can fully read your post I'll answer.

And I have a very full understanding about family law and criminal matters, having been a lawyer for 30 years.

[Queen Cersei I]

Fragile Bird, on 03 March 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

@ Queen Cersei 1

Don't know if it's you're computer or something weird in the transmission to the Westeros website, but your post is virtually unreadable.  You should report it and have it deleted and try again.

I did see you were referring to the second post, not the first, and when I can fully read your post I'll answer.

And I have a very full understanding about family law and criminal matters, having been a lawyer for 30 years.

LOL, yeah, don't bother. I have no idea what happened, but its utterly unreadable. Sorry.

I've tried to fix it, but the whole thing is filled with these weird computer coding symbols, and its maddening.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 03 March 2012 - 01:01 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Queen Cersei I, on 02 March 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

To me that's like saying rape and stealing a candy bar from a drug store are "on the same side of the scale."

Regardless of how wrong you find it, manipulating fully consenting partners is not equivalent with rape. And I am going to have to politely repeat something I said to another poster-- comparing the two is downright offensive. Profoundly so to anyone who's ever been raped or in an abusive relationship, because that is not the same thing as being manipulated with sex. When one is manipulated with sex, one has a choice. In cases of rape and abuse, one does not.

Though GRRM certainly spends more time demonizing Cersei for her sexual "crimes" than he does with Tyrion and Theon for their actual rapes. (So much so that at least one reader questioned whether what Theon did to Kyra—in which he notes he “took out his frustrations on her’, and she exits the room, weeping hysterically and covered in bite marks, scratches, and bruises—was “really” rape.)

There is also the issue of whether or not the Cersei/ Jaime relationship is one in which Cersei holds the power. Looking at the portrayal of the relationship in the first three books, I'd say hell no-- and that to say so would be utterly ridiculous.

What is between them is a complex, supremely unhealthy relationship, where both partners are constantly struggling for domination. In particular, in books one through three, it is clear that Jaime has made Cersei everything, his whole world, and want-- nay, demands-- the same from her. This is made to look (suddenly) innocent and romantic in AFFC, but in the first three books it is portrayed (far more realistically) as nothing of the sort.

For instance, in the first book, Jaime actually expresses envy of Cersei's own children, who are taking away Cersei from him. When she does something that implies her deep concern for them (for in books one through thee, before Cersei becomes an amoral sociopath, it is clear that Cersei loves her kids more than anything, with Jaime in second place), Jaime is annoyed, disturbed, and yes, jealous. For instance, consider the following: “Mothers.” The man made the word sound like a curse. “I think birthing does something to your minds. You are all mad.” He laughed. It was a bitter sound. “ Notice how Bran comments that he makes the word sound like the foulest curse word. And to him it probably is, because those little brats are taking Cersei's attention away from where it should be-- upon him. “I think the birthing does something to your brains.” In other words—how dare Cersei love anyone more than him, Jaime? Hasn’t he unhealthily focused on her as his number one obsession and main pivot of morality since he was disappointed by his failed knightly ideals at the age of 17?

Later, his scene with Bran, is a clear indication of how he (like her) is constantly struggling to one up his lover, gain moral superiority, prove that he is the more loving partner and that now she “owes” him. In contrast to popular belief, Cersei does not (as she does in the series) urge Jaime evilly to throw Bran. In fact, she only says (once) “he saw us.” *

Again, consider the following:
He saw us,” the woman said shrilly.
“So he did,” the man said.
Bran’s fingernails started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. “Take my hand,” he said. “Before you fall.”
Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up on the ledge. He was very strong. He stood Bran up on the sill. “How old are you, boy?”
“Seven,” Bran said, shaking with relief. He let go sheepishly.
The man looked over to the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said, with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.
Screaming, Bran went backward out the window into the empty air. There was nothing to grab onto….”

Note here how after Cersei says, he saw us, Jaime replies casually, “So he did.” Then he asks how old Bran is, looks at Cersei, and says the infamous “the things I do for love” line. Now, IMO, there is a lot going on in this scene. But clearly, Jaime knows he’s going to throw Bran from the moment Cersei says “he saw us.” (And, contrary once again to popular claims, Cersei herself did not want Bran thrown.) In this light, Jaime’s questioning Bran as to his age seems odd, as does his look of loathing towards Cersei. IMO, Jaime asks Bran’s age to tell Cersei, “see, you see how much I love you? You see how much I’m willing to do for you? I’ll kill this seven year old boy for you.”

He uses a violent act to—through his own decision— demonstrate the depth of his devotion to Cersei. A devotion that, without any interference of Cersei’s supposedly evil sexual manipulations, is clearly quite sick. Here and elsewhere, Jaime’s implication is that Cersei had better be willing to show she loves him just as he’s shown his devotion to her here. It’s a sick, unhealthy relationship based not on pure devotion (as Jaime’s supposedly becomes in AFFC) but on secrets, mutual dependence, and unhealthy projection. (Having lost his ideals at 17, Jaime projects a bunch of stuff into Cersei that no breathing, flesh and blood woman could possibly relate to.)

To me, it all goes back to the scene between the two in the HBO series. In one scene, Jaime roughly grabs Cersei, holds her against him, and hisses that he will kill every single person in the world until only him and her are left, if that’s what it will take. IMO, this perfectly sums up the mutually “abusive” Cersei/ Jaime relationship we see in books one through three—Jaime’s “love” for Cersei may be true, but it sure is sick, obsessive, and destructive.

Wait a minute, Cersei has been raping Jamie since they like 7 or something.  She even molested Tyrion according to Oberyn Martell.  She's a monster and probably Aerys Targaryen daughter. (though I do agree with you that Cersei did not want Brann pushed out the window)