87 replies to this topic

[dayman]

“Aerys…” Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. “Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark…”

“I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert’s coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert’s throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father… or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?

Some have said the kindness is Tyrion/Tasha and the finest act is killing Aerys. The way I read it, they both the same thing (killing Aery's) but I can't quite peg who would assume that was a kindness. In other words, he killed Aerys to save everyone from fire and people hate him for that. But then, there's someone else who thinks this was a kindness to them and loves him for it even though he never meant it that way? thoughts? or was it just Tyrion (which to me doesn't make sense)?

[Revan Baratheon]

It dosent make sense to me either.How is Jaime doing tyrion a kindness by bringing him a whore and doing that entire ' act' so he could get laid?(this is what tyrion thought he did) why not just bring him a whore straight away instead of going through an entire charade.

I think the one who loves jaime for his kindness was probably Aery's abused wife Rhaella.After
all we know how much Jaime wanted to save her from those brutal rapes..

[Fire_Kiss]

Truthfully, I have no idea what Jaime is referring to when he speaks of that kindness he never did.

I doubt he is referring to Tysha. And, for what it's worth, Tysha wasn't a whore. That was made up by Tywin and Jamie went along with it. He confesses as much to Tyrion when he and Varys release him from the black cells.

[witless chum]

I'm pretty sure the kindness is Tysha/Tyrion. How I read that is that Jaimie thinks that Tyrion appreciates that he did something for him, even if it was tricking him with.

We don't think of choreographing a bizarre scenario as a kindness, but Tyrion seems to. I think Tyrion appreciates that Jaimie would go to the trouble to try to do something for his brother. Tyrion's main trait is that he's desperate to be loved, after all. And Jaimie (he thinks at the time, later he finds out the truth and tries to hurt Jaimie by lying to him about murdering Joff) tried to give him the illusion of being loved by Tysha and by so doing was demonstrating at the same time that Jaimie loved Tyrion. Cersei was not going to choreograph ellaborate scenes to trick Tyrion into feeling good about himself.

We might think the deception ruins the kindness, but we didn't grow up as Lannisters.

Edited by witless chum, 28 February 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[sweet_cersei]

I don't think that is introducing Tyrion to Tysha that is the kindness. This was only a kindness towards Tyrion, and it seems he is talking about his image as a whole in this passage, not just towards Tyrion. T
There is no obvious thing that Jaime is loved for other than being very good with his sword and good in tournaments. i think the thing that he is loved for his being a good knight. He may not be liked  but he does seem to be respected, possibly because of fear. Could the thing that Jaime is loved for is being a good knight? I know part of being a knight is honorable, but he is still the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and this must be a position of respect, even if Jaime thinks he does not deserve it.

[Apple Martini]

Yeahhh I still think the kindness refers to Tyrion and Tysha. What the specific "kindness" that never happened was — confessing the "truth" to Tyrion or "arranging" for Tysha to come into the picture — who's to say. Barring an as-yet-unknown "kindness," it's the only thing that makes sense, surely.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

The being loved part must surely have something to do with Cersei.  Could it be him joining the KG (and thereby giving up his claim to the Rock) so that he could be near her once she had married Rhaegar (which never happened)?

[protar]

sweet_cersei, on 28 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't think that is introducing Tyrion to Tysha that is the kindness. This was only a kindness towards Tyrion, and it seems he is talking about his image as a whole in this passage, not just towards Tyrion. T
There is no obvious thing that Jaime is loved for other than being very good with his sword and good in tournaments. i think the thing that he is loved for his being a good knight. He may not be liked  but he does seem to be respected, possibly because of fear. Could the thing that Jaime is loved for is being a good knight? I know part of being a knight is honorable, but he is still the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and this must be a position of respect, even if Jaime thinks he does not deserve it.

No the quote says he is loved by one for an act of kindness he never did. So I think it refers to Tyrion and Tysha.

[witless chum]

sweet_cersei, on 28 February 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I don't think that is introducing Tyrion to Tysha that is the kindness. This was only a kindness towards Tyrion, and it seems he is talking about his image as a whole in this passage, not just towards Tyrion.

I don't think so, he's specifying loved by one versus reviled by many.

[Pliny]

I think it's got to be the Tyrion/Tysha thing. Even though it doesn't seem very "kind" to us, perhaps, it was clearly significant to Tyrion, and clearly significant to Jaime, as the guilt from his deception motivated him to free Tyrion later, and we see clearly how devastated Tyrion is to learn the truth.

I always felt that Tyrion's rage towards Jaime was misplaced (or at least, an overreaction), that they were both abused by Tywin that day, but this event was evidently very significant for both brothers.

[Anwar]

Well, Jaime did sit on the truth for like 10 years or so and only decided to tell Tyrion the truth because he thought it probably the last time he'd ever see him. I do like to think that he feels incredibly guilty for what happened to Tysha,

[Nukelavee]

Pliny - I agree.  I haven't liked that whiny obsessive little dwarf since he claimed he did kill Joff.

The scene with Tysha seems to really polarize people on Jaimie, but - I honestly don't see how anybody can blame him for that.

Tywin.  He did it all.  Not Jaimie.  Tywin, the man who exterminated whole Houses.  Likely the hardest, most terrifying man alive in Westeros at teh time, a man totally ruthless in getting his way, and forcing his family to live up to his standards and facade.

How can anybody think Jaimie could have disobeyed him, at that moment?  More - what do you think Tywin would have done if he had told the truth?

I'll tell you - Tysha would have died, to teach the same lesson, the lesson that Lannisters do not marry commoners, or diminish the family honour.

And, after that scene, would there ever be a time for Jaimie to recant?

btw - anybody notice, teh only two people not to rape Tysha were Tywin, and Jaimie?

[Fragile Bird]

I have always wondered what Jaime meant by that quote, and I had always assumed I had just missed something in my reading and would pick it up on re-read.

Tysha/Tyrion seems logical, but I wonder if there's something else GRRM has not revealed yet, but will spring on us in the coming Jaime POVs.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 28 February 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Dracarya]

I am someone who missed many, many a thing on my first read-through, but even I caught this and instantly thought the kindness referred to Tyrion/Tysha, the finest act to Aerys, so it's probably not that difficult to decipher

I find it horrifying that Tysha wasn't a whore, and in fact was raped by the whole of the Lannister guard, but Tyrion's perception of it worries me. He instantly believed his brother and father, and while neither he nor Jaime were in a position to defy Tywin, surely Tysha would have denied that she was a whore? I hate this scene, because it infuriates me for different reasons. Obviously, the fact that a young girl was raped by countless men disgusts me, but also that Tyrion makes no note (that I can think of) of Tysha trying to tell him that she wasn't a whore. I don't think he would have believed her, seeing how much he despises himself and doesn't believe that anyone could love him, but I'd like to think that a girl would try to stop herself from being raped - and why did she take the money, or is that another perception problem?

[Turkey Jack]

Tyrion loves Jamie for the lie he told, Tyrion views the lie as a kindness as he lost his virginity and thinks his brother is watching out for him, however the lie proves false and it actually happened and Tyrion lost and raped his first love.

Jamie strikes me as a dreamer much like Sansa he has heard all the stories and desperately wants to be the hero, but more often than not ends up the villain and as he says himself it all gos back to Aerys.

[witless chum]

Fire&Blood, on 28 February 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

I am someone who missed many, many a thing on my first read-through, but even I caught this and instantly thought the kindness referred to Tyrion/Tysha, the finest act to Aerys, so it's probably not that difficult to decipher

I find it horrifying that Tysha wasn't a whore, and in fact was raped by the whole of the Lannister guard, but Tyrion's perception of it worries me. He instantly believed his brother and father, and while neither he nor Jaime were in a position to defy Tywin, surely Tysha would have denied that she was a whore? I hate this scene, because it infuriates me for different reasons. Obviously, the fact that a young girl was raped by countless men disgusts me, but also that Tyrion makes no note (that I can think of) of Tysha trying to tell him that she wasn't a whore. I don't think he would have believed her, seeing how much he despises himself and doesn't believe that anyone could love him, but I'd like to think that a girl would try to stop herself from being raped - and why did she take the money, or is that another perception problem?

I thought of this, too. Tysha could have been warned by Tywin to play along, or else you'll get something worse. The most likely seems like she didn't say anything, or else Tyrion would have been ruminating on that all through A Dance With Dragons. That or it's a slip up by Martin.

I don't think it's at all odd she took the money. She doesn't have many options at the best of times as a commoner. I'd think she'd be very happy to get as far away from shitty, shitty Lannisters as is humanly possible.

[Khal Worthington]

witless chum, on 28 February 2012 - 04:16 PM, said:

I thought of this, too. Tysha could have been warned by Tywin to play along, or else you'll get something worse. The most likely seems like she didn't say anything, or else Tyrion would have been ruminating on that all through A Dance With Dragons. That or it's a slip up by Martin.

I don't think it's at all odd she took the money. She doesn't have many options at the best of times as a commoner. I'd think she'd be very happy to get as far away from shitty, shitty Lannisters as is humanly possible.

Agreed.  If we accept that Tywin was able to coopt Jaime into this deceit through some terrible threat, one can only imagine the ultimatum that Tysha got.  Maybe Tywin told her (as well as Jaime) he'd kill Tyrion as well as Tysha?

The execution being either openly, or Sam Tarley "hunting accident" style.  The Lannisters do love their hunting accidents.

Edited by Khal Worthington, 28 February 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

I never thought about this until now, but I think I get it.

Jaime is referring to Tywin, who loves him for killing Aerys for the good of house Lannister, even though he really did it to save the city.

[the savage]

I don't think we know what that kindness is yet.  The quote seems wayyyyyy too important and the things he may be referencing (that we know about) just aren't that good.  Tysha really was saved by Jaime, so he in fact did do that kindness.  So that goes out the window.  Tywin wouldn't "love" Jaime just because he killed Aerys, he loves him already, if anything he is proud that Jaime "did his duty as a Lannister" as he says in the stop motion comic.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I am willing to bet Tysha probably did try to deny it to Tyrion but he instantly believed the worst and refused to give her a chance.

Jaime was a young kid himself at the time and obviously did feel guilt or he would never have even thought about it it to tell Tyrion.