87 replies to this topic

[Dragonfish]

the savage, on 08 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I don't think we know what that kindness is yet.  The quote seems wayyyyyy too important and the things he may be referencing (that we know about) just aren't that good.  Tysha really was saved by Jaime, so he in fact did do that kindness.  So that goes out the window.

No one is saying the "kindness he never did" was saving Tysha, they're claiming that it was arranging for Tyrion to lose his virginity (which seems to me to be the clear and obvious answer).

[Prince of the North]

I think we do know what Jaime means by "loved by one for a kindness he didn't do".  The story dreamed up by Tywin (because he felt Tysha was beneath the Lannisters) was that Jaime found the "whore" Tysha and got her to pretend she was just a peasant girl who really loved Tyrion.  Of course, the tragic irony is that Tysha actually was just a commoner and really did love Tyrion.

So the "one" in this case is Tyrion and the "kindness" was trying to make him feel good or happy through the masquerade of him actually being loved.  Of course, as Jaime says he didn't actually do it - that's not what happened

[the savage]

Dragonfish, on 08 March 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

No one is saying the "kindness he never did" was saving Tysha, they're claiming that it was arranging for Tyrion to lose his virginity (which seems to me to be the clear and obvious answer).

It's not the answer because you're wrong.  Tysha actually was a common girl that Jaime saved from rapers.  Tywin commanded Jaime to lie about it all being a ploy after the fact; Jaime tells Tyrion this after setting him free in ASOS, remember?!

[Dragonfish]

the savage, on 08 March 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

It's not the answer because you're wrong.  Tysha actually was a common girl that Jaime saved from rapers.  Tywin commanded Jaime to lie about it all being a ploy after the fact; Jaime tells Tyrion this after setting him free in ASOS, remember?!

Uh, yes, that's my point. Tyrion thinks that Jaime arranged to have him lose his virginity, when in reality he did no such thing. Thus it was a "kindness" he never did.

[the savage]

Dragonfish, on 08 March 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Uh, yes, that's my point. Tyrion thinks that Jaime arranged to have him lose his virginity, when in reality he did no such thing. Thus it was a "kindness" he never did.

I don't think Tyrion thought of it as a kindness seeing how that incident has scarred him for life

[Dragonfish]

the savage, on 09 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I don't think Tyrion thought of it as a kindness seeing how that incident has scarred him for life

Tyrion was scarred because of what Tywin did to him. That doesn't mean he can't recognize that what Jaime was trying to do for him was a kindness.

[Fearsome Fred]

the savage, on 09 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I don't think Tyrion thought of it as a kindness seeing how that incident has scarred him for life

I think he does.  He feels grateful to Jaime for having procured for him an abused teenaged virgin for him to rape, abuse and then discard.  This shows how deeply wicked Tyrion is.  Yes, he (selfishly) wants to be loved too, but that does not make him a decent person.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Tyrion was scarred because of what Tywin did to him. That doesn't mean he can't recognize that what Jaime was trying to do for him was a kindness.

As long as we understand that the "kindness" for which Tyrion feels grateful is the procurement of a teenaged virgin for him to use and then discard.  Tyrion is analogous to a wicked man-eating giant, who feels grateful to his brother giant for giving him a child to devour as a gift.

Tyrion's desire to be loved is just another aspect of his hunger.  It is not as though he actually loved Tysha - he was merely enamored of the idea that she loved him.  He feels betrayed when he realises that perhaps she did love him.  It makes him wish he had devoured her more slowly.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

I think he does.  He feels grateful to Jaime for having procured for him an abused teenaged virgin for him to rape, abuse and then discard.  This shows how deeply wicked Tyrion is.  Yes, he (selfishly) wants to be loved too, but that does not make him a decent person.

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

As long as we understand that the "kindness" for which Tyrion feels grateful is the procurement of a teenaged virgin for him to use and then discard.  Tyrion is analogous to a wicked man-eating giant, who feels grateful to his brother giant for giving him a child to devour as a gift

I don't know where you're getting that she had been abused before she met Tyrion, as the books don't mention anything about that. Nor do I understand what you're referring to when you speak of Tyrion abusing and raping her (Tyrion only raped her when his father ordered him to; he never raped her when he thought she was just a random crofter's daughter). I especially don't understand your reference to Tyrion "discarding" her, given that he actually ended up marrying her. I do, however, agree that Tyrion is a bit too selfish and self-centered with his constant "woe-is-me" attitude. It is possible to criticize Tyrion without making things up, you know.

Edited by Dragonfish, 09 March 2012 - 03:35 PM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

I don't know where you're getting that she had been abused before she met Tyrion,

She was abused WHEN she met Tyrion.  She was teenaged virgin girl, starving and desperate.  He got her drunk, and took advantage of her.  Afterwards, he decided to do right by her by marrying her (but only for selfish reasons).  But then, when he decided she did not really "love" him, he raped her and discarded her.

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(Tyrion only raped her when his father ordered him to; [...]

No.  Also, his cock made him do it.  Tyrion is full of excuses.

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he never raped her when he thought she was just a random crofter's daughter).

So you admit it was not just because his father (and his cock) "made him do it".  It was for the crime of not really loving him.  The crime of being a starving desperate virgin girl cynically procured for him by his evil brother, probably with the help of some evil pimp, as distinct from being a starving desperate virgin girl who "really loved him".

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I especially don't understand your reference to Tyrion "discarding" her, given that he actually ended up marrying her.

What he ended up doing was rape her, and then spend the next 14 years not lifting a finger to find out what happened to her, while feeling grateful to his evil brother for having orchestrated the whole mess.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 04:10 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

She was abused WHEN she met Tyrion.  She was teenaged virgin girl, starving and desperate.  He got her drunk, and took advantage of her.  Afterwards, he decided to do right by her by marrying her (but only for selfish reasons).  But then, when he decided she did not really "love" him, he raped her and discarded her.

No, his father forced him to rape her and discard her. You are imputing your own beliefs about Tyrion's motives onto him without a shred of evidence.

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No.  Also, his cock made him do it.  Tyrion is full of excuses.

Seems to me you're full of excuses for hating Tyrion. Once again you make something up for which you have not a shred of evidence.

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So you admit it was not just because his father (and his cock) "made him do it".  It was for the crime of not really loving him.

Uh, no, I admitted no such thing. I simply pointed out that Tyrion never did anything to hurt her of his own volition.

In any event, do you have any evidence that Tyrion actually raped her for the "crime of not really loving him"?

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What he ended up doing was rape her, and then spend the next 14 years not lifting a finger to find out what happened to her, while feeling grateful to his evil brother for having orchestrated the whole mess.

Jaime did not orchestrate the whole mess. What he (suppsedly) did was arrange for Tyrion to sleep with a whore, which, in the world of Westeros, is perfectly normal. It was Tywin who had Tysha gang-raped by guards and then by Tyrion, yet interestingly enough you have not typed one word criticizing him for it. All you have done is criticize Tyrion, who is actually one of the victims in this story (though by no means is he the one who suffered the most). You are very quick to ascribe evil motives to Tyrion and Jaime, yet ignore the man who is quite clearly the most evil in this story. So I'm sorry, but I think you've got your priorities backwards.

Edited by Dragonfish, 09 March 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[Silver Spearwife]

Will you stop it with this virgin stuff? There are one of two options here: Either you are deliberately making things up or you clearly don't remember what happened, so I'm going to enlighten you.

A crofter's daughter named Tysha was attacked and raped. She escaped and came across Jaime and Tyrion. Jaime went to find help for her and Tyrion comforted her. She was grateful and they fell in love. They then ran off together and got married. They lived in a small shack for the following few weeks until Tywin found them. Tywin told Tyrion that it was a scheme that Jaime devised for Tyrion to lose his virginity and that Tysha was a hired whore. Tywin forced Jaime to confirm this story. Tywin then gave each of the men in his guard a silver to rape Tysha, finalized by giving Tyrion a gold coin to do the same. For years, Tyrion was led to believe that the deceit was true, and was not informed of the truth until years later, at which point he swore vengeance on the whole lot of them.

I am guessing that Tyrion did that last bit because he was a thirteen-year-old boy who was shit scared of his father. Even if he came to hate Tysha because of it, and he didn't, he does not remember the act with any anger - he remembers being depressed. You do not rape someone because you are sad.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

No, his father forced him to rape her and discard her. You are imputing your own beliefs about Tyrion's motives onto him without a shred of evidence.

"Forced" is your word, which you impute to the situation without evidence, in your desperate attempt to imply Tyrion had no choice.  But all Tyrion said is that his father TOLD him to do it.  That Tyrion had no choice but to obey is YOUR conclusion, illogical and unsubstantiated as it is.

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Uh, no, I admitted no such thing. I simply pointed out that Tyrion never did anything to hurt her of his own volition.

You have a strange definition of "volition".  Was Tyrion's father WARGING poor Tyrion when he raped Tysha?

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In any event, do you have any evidence that Tyrion actually raped her for the "crime of not really loving him"?

Why don't you first explain what YOU meant, when you tried to justify the rape by saying she was not "some random crofters daughter", as if it makes any difference WHOSE daughter she was.

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Jaime did not orchestrate the whole mess. What he (suppsedly) did was arrange for Tyrion to sleep with a whore, which, in the world of Westeros, is perfectly normal.

A "whore" who was, in this case, a starving teenager, and a virgin.  Your claim that Tyrion regards such abuse and exploitation as "perfectly normal" only demonstrates Tyrion's moral depravity.  Your attempt to justify it demonstrates your own moral depravity as well.

Believe it or not, it is possible, in Westeros, to find people who oppose such exploitation.  The High Sparrow, for instance.

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It was Tywin who had Tysha gang-raped by guards and then by Tyrion, yet interestingly enough you have not typed one word criticizing him for it.

Who gives a damn!  Who cares!  They are all rapists.  They all deserve to burn in Hell.

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All you have done is criticize Tyrion, who is actually one of the victims in this story

Oh sure.  Let's all buy into Tyrion's self pity.  POOR POOR TYRION.  POOR LITTLE RICH BOY.  He just HAD to obey his dad.  Else, his dad might have disinherited him, ... or something.

But if he was such a victim, why does he feel grateful to Jaime?

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So I'm sorry, but I think you've got your priorities backwards.

Oh no.  I am quite satisfied that I see things clearly.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Psychobabble6, on 09 March 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

Will you stop it with this virgin stuff? There are one of two options here: Either you are deliberately making things up or you clearly don't remember what happened, so I'm going to enlighten you.

What am I making up?  She was a virgin, and Tyrion knew she was a virgin.  She cried when he took her maidenhood.  She was starving, when he fed her and got her drunk on wine.  He remembers this clearly.  Please check the text.

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A crofter's daughter named Tysha was attacked and raped.

She was not raped by the people pursuing her.  She was still a virgin, when Tyrion had sex with her.  She was also starving, when he fed her, got her drunk, and took adantage of her.  She cried when he took her maidenhood.

He knows these things, regardless of whether he believes she was a virgin procured for him by his brother.  Even Jaime said she was a virgin.  He said he paid double for that, presumably to the pimp.

Regardless of whether you decide to justify her abuse and expoitation by calling her a "whore", there was never any doubt about her being a starving, desperate virgin girl.

Edit:  But perhaps I should not make too much of her virginity.  Even prostitutes who are already "soiled" have a right to be protected from further exploitation.   Hence, the High Sparrow doubtless has the right idea when he sought to ban prostitution entirely.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

"Forced" is your word, which you impute to the situation without evidence, in your desperate attempt to imply Tyrion had no choice.  But all Tyrion said is that his father TOLD him to do it.  That Tyrion had no choice but to obey is YOUR conclusion, illogical and unsubstantiated as it is.

The text says this: "Lord Tywin had me go last." Given what we know of Tywin, do you really think he gave him a choice?

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You have a strange definition of "volition".  Was Tyrion's father WARGING poor Tyrion when he raped Tysha?

Apparently you have no understanding of the concepts of "intimidation" and "coercion." You think Tyrion was free to choose not to rape Tysha? You think if he refused, then Tywin would simply have thrown his hands up and said "oh well, nothing to be done about it"? Or do you think Tyrion was positively jumping at the chance to rape his wife?

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Why don't you first explain what YOU meant, when you tried to justify the rape by saying she was not "some random crofters daughter", as if it makes any difference WHOSE virgin daughter she was.

I never tried to justify rape. I did not claim it was fine and dandy that Tyrion raped her when he found out she was a whore. What I said was that no rape occurred when Tyrion thought she was just a crofter's daughter, which was meant to be a reference to a time before Tywin got involved.

Now, I am going to have to ask my question again: what is your basis for saying that Tyrion raped Tysha because "his cock told him to"?

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A "whore" who was, in this case, a starving teenager, and a virgin.  Your claim that Tyrion regards such abuse and exploitation as "perfectly normal" only demonstrates Tyrion's moral depravity.  Your attempt to justify it demonstrates your own moral depravity as well.

You are really, really going to have to calm down.

What I said was that prostitution is mostly regarded as a normal thing in Westeros (though there are exceptions, as you rightly point out). This doesn't mean that I agree with prosititution or wish to see it legal in our own world. I just think that when we analyze the "morality" of people in the story, we have to account for the mores and values of the society in which they grew up, at least to some extent.

In any case, I'm curious if you have an equal amount of disdain for the many, many other characters who regard prostitution as normal? Also, do you have an equal amount of disdain for every male character who has entered into an arranged marriage, given that arranged marriages are basically a form of institutionalized rape?

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Believe it or not, it is possible, in Westeros, to find people who oppose such exploitation.  The High Sparrow, for instance.

It is also possible to find people like Chataya, who view sex and prostitution in a more "liberal" light.

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But if he was such a victim, why does he feel grateful to Jaime?

It is possible to feel grateful for somone's else's attempts to do you a "kindness", even if you find their intentions misguided, and even if something horrible resulted that was out of your or their hands.

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

The text says this: "Lord Tywin had me go last."

So?

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Given what we know of Tywin, do you really think he gave him a choice?

He had a choice, whether Tywin "gave" him one or not.  Is there any evidence he even TRIED to disobey?

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You think Tyrion was free to choose not to rape Tysha?

I see no evidence to the contrary.

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You think if he refused, then Tywin would simply have thrown his hands up and said "oh well, nothing to be done about it"?

I have no idea what Tywin would have done.  Tyrion, filthy coward that he was, did not have the guts to find out.

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Or do you think Tyrion was positively jumping at the chance to rape his wife?

He SAYS his cock made him do it.  It's right there in the text.

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Now, I am going to have to ask my question again: what is your basis for saying that Tyrion raped Tysha because "his cock told him to"?

"I would have defied him but my cock betrayed me".

So it was not FEAR that prevented him from defying Tywin.  Nor did FEAR play any role in his decision to keep seeing Shae after Tywin threatened to hang his next whore.  It was not his OWN life that was on the line.

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I just think that when we analyze the "morality" of people in the story, we have to account for the mores and values of the society in which they grew up, at least to some extent.

No we don't.  If we did, we would never be able to make moral judgments at all.

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In any case, I'm curious if you have an equal amount of disdain for the many, many other characters who regard prostitution as normal?

Yes.  Particularly if they consider it "normal" to have sex with starving virgin 14-year olds procured for them by pimps.

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Also, do you have an equal amount of disdain for every male character who has entered into an arranged marriage, given that arranged marriages are basically a form of institutionalized rape?

I do not agree that an "arranged marriage" is even remotely equivalent to "institutionalized rape", except, perhaps, in some very rare extreme cases.

Edit:  Tyrion thought Tysha was adequately paid for what he did by the gold piece he gave her.  That's right there in the text too.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

He had a choice, whether Tywin "gave" him one or not.  Is there any evidence he even TRIED to disobey?

In what way did he have a choice? "Do this or suffer punishment" is no choice at all.

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I have no idea what Tywin would have done.  Tyrion, filthy coward that he was, did not have the guts to find out.

Tyrion was a 13-year-old boy who, for his entire life, had suffered mental abuse and ridicule from his father and others for his physical deformity. He was, like all people under Tywin's thumb, psychologically cowed by him. I would therefore not describe him as a coward, but instead as a scared and scarred little boy.

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He SAYS his cock made him do it.  It's right there in the text.

"I would have defied him but my cock betrayed me".

I don't see anything in that line about Tyrion wanting to rape Tysha, only that he became aroused againts his will and thus had no "excuse" to point to in order to get out of it.

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Yes.  Particularly if they consider it "normal" to have sex with starving virgin 14-year olds procured for them by pimps.

It is normal in Westeros to have sex with 14-year-old girls in general. If you were to apply your argument equally, then you ought to have disdain for literally every character in the story, which would make me wonder why you even bother reading it.

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I do not agree that an "arranged marriage" is even remotely equivalent to "institutionalized rape", except, perhaps, in some very rare extreme cases.

Women have absolutely no choice in whom they marry, and thus have no choice in whom they have sex with. How is that not rape?

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

In what way did he have a choice? "Do this or suffer punishment" is no choice at all.

It is indeed a choice, for anyone who is not a coward.  But you have no evidence he was threatened with punishment.

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I don't see anything in that line about Tyrion wanting to rape Tysha, only that he became aroused againts his will and thus had no "excuse" to point to in order to get out of it.

One does not need an "excuse" for defiance.  He said, "I would have defied him ...".  Not "I would have feigned impotence so I could pretend I was not really defying him."

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Women have absolutely no choice in whom they marry, and thus have no choice in whom they have sex with. How is that not rape?

Because the woman can say no to the arranged marriage.  Just as Arianne did to all her father's "attempts" at an arranged marriage.  Arranged marriage is a very common practice in the world, and it is not, in 99% of cases, even remotely equivalent to rape.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Fearsome Fred, on 09 March 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

It is indeed a choice, for anyone who is not a coward.  But you have no evidence he was threatened with punishment.

The manner in which he tells the story clearly shows that he was coerced. Note that Bronn responds by swearing he would kill any man who did that to him, which clearly belies your argument that Tyrion was a willing participant.

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One does not need an "excuse" for defiance.

You do when the man you're about to defy is lord Tywin.

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Because the woman can say no to the arranged marriage.  Just as Arianne did to all her father's "attempts" at an arranged marriage.  Arranged marriage is a very common practice in the world, and it is not, in 99% of cases, even remotely equivalent to rape.

Uh, women do not have a choice in the matter. Arianne is the exception, because Dorne is a more gender-equitable society. No one ever asked for Sansa's input when they arranged her marriage to Joffrey (or to Tyrion, for that matter), nor did anyone ask for Catelyn's when she was betrothed to Brandon and Ned, or Lyanna's when she was betrothed to Robert. The power to betrothe is generally the exclusive province of the family patriarch, and if women ever have any input in the matter, it is because the patriarch deigns to give it to them.

So again, I must ask: do you have an equal amount of disdain for all the characters who participate in arranged marriages? And do you have any disdain for every character in Westeros who views sex with a 14-year-old as normal (which is basically every character)?

[Fearsome Fred]

Dragonfish, on 09 March 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

The manner in which he tells the story clearly shows that he was coerced.

No.  It does not.

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Note that Bronn responds by swearing he would kill any man who did that to him, which clearly belies your argument that Tyrion was a willing participant.

What?  Is Bronn a witness?

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Uh, women do not have a choice in the matter. Arianne is the exception, because Dorne is a more gender-equitable society. No one ever asked for Sansa's input when they arranged her marriage to Joffrey (or to Tyrion, for that matter), nor did anyone ask for Catelyn's when she was betrothed to Brandon and Ned, or Lyanna's when she was betrothed to Robert.

We don't know that, except arguably in the Sansa/Tyrion case.  Sansa was perfectly willing, even eager, to marry Joffrey, so coercion is not an issue.

But whether or not coercion is the norm in Westeros (which it may well be, considering how much GRRM loves the subject of rape) an arranged marriage is NOT synonymous with arranged marriage.  And if coerced marriage is the norm in Westeros, I naturally disapprove of it, as all decent people would.

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The power to betrothe is generally the exclusive province of the family patriarch, and if women ever have any input in the matter, it is because the patriarch deigns to give it to them.

In the Christian world, at least, it had been the tradition that the patriarch cannot or should not force a daughter to marry against her will.  This is why marriages, whether arranged or otherwise, required the bride to publicly say "I do".  A coerced marriage was grounds for annulment.

But even putting that aside, the "patriarch" is the woman's father.  Most parents love their children, and do not force them to marry against their will.

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Arianne is the exception, because Dorne is a more gender-equitable society.

Why should I assume that?  Medieval Europe was not gender equitable, but they still frowned on coerced marriages (but not arranged marriages).

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So again, I must ask: do you have an equal amount of disdain for all the characters who participate in arranged marriages?

No.  I reject the analogy, for reasons already explained.  An arranged marriage is not equivalent to rape, except in extreme cases.

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And do you have any disdain for every character in Westeros who views sex with a 14-year-old as normal (which is basically every character)?

The age of the victim, per se, is not even the issue.  Common sense tells you that when you pay a pimp to have sex with a starving 14-year old virgin, you are, for all practical purposes, a party to rape (and, for all you know, to kidnapping as well).  Comparing this to an arranged marriage is ludicrous.  And if you prefer starving 18 year old virgins, and tell the pimp as much, it hardly changes the situation.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 09 March 2012 - 07:15 PM.