87 replies to this topic

[Fearsome Fred]

....

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 10 March 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Sand Snake NO. 9 wrote:

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"Moral depravity" in a 13-year-old who married the first girl he slept with because she cried when he deflowered her (and himself)?  That's a little extreme.

Is this some kind of JOKE!!!???  Marrying her is obviously not what I am criticizing him for.  

Sheesh!

As I have said before, I would give him brownie points for repentance had he shown any, in the 14 years thereafter, for the sins, follies and weaknesses of his youth.  But he hasn't.  He is not sorry for the crime he committed, only for the illusion of love that he lost.  So yeah.  I agree he has gotten worse.  He has progressed from gang-raping his victims to strangling them.

So if I am going to give a former monster brownie points for heading in the right direction, they will (probably) go to the likes of Sandor, not to Tyrion.

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You think the High Sparrow wants to ban prostitution for the benefit of the WOMEN? That's ludicrous.

It is POSSIBLE that your cynical attitude is right.  Especially if GRRM shares it (which is only too likely - he seems just a little too fond of the subject of whores).  But, in the real world, a little non-PC premodern sexism is by no means proof that a person has no care or interest in the wellbeing of women.

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This High Sparrow probably hates all those brazen Jezebels who lead po' weak men astray, because, if you can't tell from his dialogue with Cersei, he hates female sexuality. In fact, I think he hates women, full stop, not unlike the real life clerics and church upon whom the Faith, its Septons, Septons and High Septon are based.  

Oh great.  I am Roman Catholic.  Thanks for equating EVERYBODY associated with my religion with the pathological hatred of women.   Is is so much FUN to be preached bigotry by the likes of you.

But I would suspect that the poor women of Kings Landing would prefer the High Sparrow's "hatred" to the kind of "love" offered by the kind of folks you evidently prefer.  He lives in poverty, and sold all the riches of his office, so he could feed the poor of Kings Landing, women among them.  But no doubt you feel that Chataya is doing a better service to the women of King's Landing.

I also seem to recall that it was a previous High Septon, who taught Lancel that he must learn to forgive Cersei.

[Winter's Knight]

Fearsome Fred, on 10 March 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Sand Snake NO. 9 wrote:


Is this some kind of JOKE!!!???  Marrying her is obviously not what I am criticizing him for.  

Sheesh!

As I have said before, I would give him brownie points for repentance had he shown any, in the 14 years thereafter, for the sins, follies and weaknesses of his youth.  But he hasn't.  He is not sorry for the crime he committed, only for the illusion of love that he lost.  So yeah.  I agree he has gotten worse.  He has progressed from gang-raping his victims to strangling them.

So if I am going to give a former monster brownie points for heading in the right direction, they will (probably) go to the likes of Sandor, not to Tyrion.



It is POSSIBLE that your cynical attitude is right.  Especially if GRRM shares it (which is only too likely - he seems just a little too fond of the subject of whores).  But, in the real world, a little non-PC premodern sexism is by no means proof that a person has no care or interest in the wellbeing of women.



Oh great.  I am Roman Catholic.  Thanks for equating EVERYBODY associated with my religion with the pathological hatred of women.   Is is so much FUN to be preached bigotry by the likes of you.

But I would suspect that the poor women of Kings Landing would prefer the High Sparrow's "hatred" to the kind of "love" offered by the kind of folks you evidently prefer.  He lives in poverty, and sold all the riches of his office, so he could feed the poor of Kings Landing, women among them.  But no doubt you feel that Chataya is doing a better service to the women of King's Landing.

I also seem to recall that it was a previous High Septon, who taught Lancel that he must learn to forgive Cersei.

If prostitution were to be ended in KL you'c be left with women who could not support themselves in a medieval environment that offers no employment opportunities.

Whether or no his motives are misogynistic, he is not likely to to  be looked on favourably by women in-verse or out.

It would be nice if we could keep modern day politics out of this forum.

[DornishKnight]

Turkey Jack, on 28 February 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Jamie strikes me as a dreamer much like Sansa he has heard all the stories and desperately wants to be the hero, but more often than not ends up the villain and as he says himself it all gos back to Aerys.

Jaime seems to have entered the Kingsguard as a decent (if incestuous) young man with a high value on honor.  The man we see in the books had to (at what, 15 or 16?) stand by as a madman burned innocent people alive and the "true knights" of the Kingsguard just and let it happen. Such circumstances would disillusion anyone.
The man we see in the opening books believes honor is absolute sh*t, and as such, indulges in vice because (according to him) life has no point.

Edited by DornishKnight, 10 March 2012 - 01:33 AM.

[Angalin]

<mod>
Other threads already exist dealing with the notion of rape and consent.  Move the discussion over there, and leave this thread for Jaime and what he did or didn't do, thanks.  And the personal attacks on other posters can go right away, too.
</mod>

Edited by Angalin, 10 March 2012 - 02:32 AM.

[Fearsome Fred]

Angalin, on 10 March 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

<mod>
Other threads already exist dealing with the notion of rape and consent.  Move the discussion over there, and leave this thread for Jaime and what he did or didn't do, thanks.  And the personal attacks on other posters can go right away, too.
</mod>

Since this thread is about what Jaime DID NOT do, it is barely about Jaime at all.

The "kindness" that Jaime DID NOT do was pay someone (a pimp, presumably) to procure for Tyrion a starving desperate common maiden for Tyrion to use on a temporary basis, and then discard and abandon after taking her maidenhood.  Tyrion feels grateful for this "kindness", which essentially reflects Tyrion's attitude that common girls are objects to be consumed and discarded by "Giants" like himself, and gifted to each other like disposable birthday presents.

I have taken the position that this "kindness" (which Jaime did not do) is in fact a morally repulsive act.  He who commits such an act becomes an accomplice to the victimization of women and young girls, and (very often) rape.

If you want to get this back to Jaime, his exploitation of the girl raped at Harrenhall, by pimping her to his own men, reflects his own repulsive attitudes.  But I am sure lots of people will be jumping up with outrage, trying to portray Jaime as some kind of saint because he is a kinder, gentler abuser than the girl's previous abusers.

Winterbreath, on 10 March 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

If prostitution were to be ended in KL you'c be left with women who could not support themselves in a medieval environment that offers no employment opportunities.

I cannot speak for Westeros, which is a fantasy world.  There are some (ambiguous) indications that GRRM may have an unrealistically positive and idealized view of prostitution.  But as to "medieval environment" or any other real-world environment, your statement is nonsense.  It is fantasy, not reality.

Real-world communities, in any age, have never had difficulty coming up with activities for women to contribute to the wellbeing of the community.  In a just society, these women will be sufficiently recompensated for their activities so that they not vulnerable to destructive exploitation.  But Prostitution is not one of these productive activities.  Prostitution grows no food.  Prostitution produces no goods that can be used or sold.  Prostitution produces nothing except venerial disease and abandoned or unwanted babies, sometimes cared for by alcoholic mothers with syphyllis.

If a community is so desperate that it cannot feed its own members, then prostitution will not help the situation.  Economic disparatity and desperation among the poor does, however, facilitate the exploitation and trafficking of women by pimps, johns, thugs, slavers and kidnappers.

Now it is true that real-world communities often have vast inequalities in the distribution of wealth, and this often means that women without money are coerced into prostitution by men who take advantage of the economic realities.   This does not mean society (or women as a whole) benefit from the exploitation.

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Whether or no his motives are misogynistic, he is not likely to to  be looked on favourably by women in-verse or out.

Well, he is certainly not going to be looked upon favorably by pimps, johns, thugs and kidnappers.  It is possible that some of the more successful prostitutes will resent him too.  But most women do not like it when their husbands, brothers, or fathers spend family resources on prostitution, and then come home with venereal diseases.  And I imagine that is no less true in the ancient world than it is today.

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It would be nice if we could keep modern day politics out of this forum.

I understand.  You are telling me that moral relativism and/or nihilism is the official religion of this board, and that anyone with inconsistent views should get lost.  But as I have said before, my moral views have nothing to do with "modern day politics".

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 10 March 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

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Real-world communities, in any age, have never had difficulty coming up with activities for women to contribute to the wellbeing of the community. In a just society, these women will be sufficiently recompensated for their activities so that they not vulnerable to destructive exploitation. But Prostitution is not one of these productive activities. Prostitution grows no food. Prostitution produces no goods that can be used or sold. Prostitution produces nothing except venerial disease and abandoned or unwanted babies, sometimes cared for by alcoholic mothers with syphyllis.

I don't know Fred, some, um, experts on pubic welfare might disagree with you; for example St. Augustine wrote: "Suppress prostitution, and capricious lusts will overthrow society." And St. Thomas Aquinas thought prostitution was very important to a community: "Prostitution in the towns is like the cesspoolin the palace: take away the cesspool and the palace will become an unclean and evil-smelling place."

Just sayin'.

I find it hard to believe that even Jaime would think that procuring Tysha for Tyrion was a kindness considering the horrible outcome of the whole affair, but I can't think of any time when Jaime did a kindness for anyone up to that point in the stories. Anyone have any ideas?

[Fearsome Fred]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 10 March 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

I don't know Fred, some, um, experts on pubic welfare might disagree with you; for example St. Augustine wrote: "Suppress prostitution, and capricious lusts will overthrow society." And St. Thomas Aquinas thought prostitution was very important to a community: "Prostitution in the towns is like the cesspoolin the palace: take away the cesspool and the palace will become an unclean and evil-smelling place."

I do not think Aquinas and Augustine are disagreeing with me that patronising prostitutes is morally unacceptable behavior that damages society and causes all kinds of evil.  They are saying that, as a matter of public policy, if you suppress it, human evil may express itself in even worse ways.  Which may be true for all I know.  Certainly, no attempt to suppress prostitution has ever been entirely successful.

But why don't you look a little futher, and see if you can find a quote where Aquinas or Augustine comment on ASOIAF and disagree with me that the "kindness that Jaime never did", in paying some pimp a premium to procure a 14-year old starving virgin,  was a morally reprehensible act.  Not that it would matter if you did find such a quote.  I am perfectly free to disagree with Aquinas or Augustine, if I choose.

Edit:  In fact, one of the reasons often given for tolerating prostitution is that it makes government oversight easier and prevents the worst abuses, like, for instance, Jaime's "kindness".

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I find it hard to believe that even Jaime would think that procuring Tysha for Tyrion was a kindness considering the horrible outcome of the whole affair, but I can't think of any time when Jaime did a kindness for anyone up to that point in the stories. Anyone have any ideas?

I think that's it.  But good luck finding another explanation.

Edited by Fearsome Fred, 10 March 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

@ Sand Snake No. 9

Well thank you for that post!  On the first page of this thread I said I didn't know what he meant, and I thought I had missed something, but everyone seemed to think it was Tyrion/Tysha.

I don't think we know yet what the kindness was, and I would really like to know, because ever since I read that line I have been thinking about it.  I think this is going to be a surprise GRRM springs on us.

[facelessgrl]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 10 March 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

I find it hard to believe that even Jaime would think that procuring Tysha for Tyrion was a kindness considering the horrible outcome of the whole affair, but I can't think of any time when Jaime did a kindness for anyone up to that point in the stories. Anyone have any ideas?

Who loves Jamie for a kindness?  His quote is something like 'I am loved by one for a kindness I never did'

Cersi loves him but not for a kindness, kin-ness maybe.

Is he loved by Rikon's wife (Ned's mother) because she thinks he killed Aery's because of the murder of Rikon and Brandon?  That is my guess because it fits in with the conversation best.

[Jamie Lannister]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 28 February 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I never thought about this until now, but I think I get it.

Jaime is referring to Tywin, who loves him for killing Aerys for the good of house Lannister, even though he really did it to save the city.

Huh, this is logical. I quite like this.

[bloodymime]

I've always thought the kindness he never did involved the lie he told Tyrion. He loves his big brother as one of the very few who have shown any kindness to him, as badly as it turned out it never soured him towards Jaime. Tyrion's bright and he knows nobody but Jaime cares enough about him to arrange that kind of charade to try and give him some illusion of dignity as a man.

I'm sure I remember a line early in the books from Tyrion that he's willing to forgive Jaime anything which I think makes it telling that the one unforgivable thing Jaime does end up doing is telling him the truth about Tysha.

[Fragile Bird]

facelessgrl, on 25 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Who loves Jamie for a kindness?  His quote is something like 'I am loved by one for a kindness I never did'

Cersi loves him but not for a kindness, kin-ness maybe.

Is he loved by Rikon's wife (Ned's mother) because she thinks he killed Aery's because of the murder of Rikon and Brandon?  That is my guess because it fits in with the conversation best.

Just so you know, Ned's father's name is Rickard.  Rickon is Ned's son.  As far as we know, Rickard's wife was dead by then.

[Castel]

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I never thought about this until now, but I think I get it.

Jaime is referring to Tywin, who loves him for killing Aerys for the good of house Lannister, even though he really did it to save the city.

Wasn't Tywin rushing to KL to stop this exact thing happening?

Quote

Real-world communities, in any age, have never had difficulty coming up with activities for women to contribute to the wellbeing of the community. In a just society, these women will be sufficiently recompensated for their activities so that they not vulnerable to destructive exploitation. But Prostitution is not one of these productive activities. Prostitution grows no food. Prostitution produces no goods that can be used or sold. Prostitution produces nothing except venerial disease and abandoned or unwanted babies, sometimes cared for by alcoholic mothers with syphyllis.

[/background]

Sometimes the action is an end to itself.

It produces money, which is why some people go into it. And it does create goods, but that's it's cousin pornography.And I'm not just talking about the poor people here, I mean people with other options. As for the poor,  well some people don't have many options and for whatever reason the government isn't willing to help, yet it's willing to remove an option that they should have, it's kinda like denying men use of their physical strength because they're poor and their supervisor may or may not be ethical, especially since you do not like the supervisor.

Edited by Castel, 28 April 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[bloodymime]

When you add,

"I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did"

To,

"And Tyrion, his little brother, who loved him for a lie."

It makes hard to think there's anyone else he's talking about but Tyrion in the first as well.

[larrytheimp]

Jaime isnt' the one to tell Tywin that Tyrion married Tysha.  What a tongue twister.  i think the kindness was that he didn't rat out Tyrion. ...

[Dragonfish]

larrytheimp, on 14 July 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Jaime isnt' the one to tell Tywin that Tyrion married Tysha.  What a tongue twister.  i think the kindness was that he didn't rat out Tyrion. ...

But the kindness is supposed to be something that Jaime never actually did. I think it's pretty clear from the following quote from ASOS that Jaime is referring to Tyrion's belief that he hired a prostitute for him:

"The wench had the right of it. He could not die. Cersei was waiting for him. She would have need of him. And Tyrion, his little brother, who loved him for a lie."

[Summerqueen]

I think it's clear that the kindness is Jaime's pretend reveal about the sham love Tysha felt. So, removing the scales from his eyes, thus making him more astute about how the world works.

The fact is that this is not the truth but the lie.

[Francisco R. Fonseca]

I'm pretty sure it refers to Tyrion/Tysha and this has been resolved. I thought the same thing when I read it (what's that?) but Jamie discusses this in ASOS.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

maybe its just something that we haven't learned about yet. I doubt we have learned everything there is to know about Jaime's past, so maybe one person loves him for something that we haven't seen.