96 replies to this topic

[Rhaegar The Chef]

"'The bones help,' said Melisandre. 'The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming.'" -- Melisandre I

This is a quote from the end of Melisandre's chapter from ADWD after she reveals to Jon that Rattleshirt is actually Mance in glamor.  It's interesting that she specifically uses a bag of fingerbones as a description of appropriate glamors.  Why would she say that?  The only person in the entire series that had a bag of fingerbones, is Davos who lost his.  Is it possible that Melisandre could have recovered them?  If so does she intend to make a Davos glamor?

I'm probably grasping at straws here, but very strange phrasing IMO.

[AlexKerscher]

Well, while I can understand the leverage that having someone posing as the Hand of the King can bring, I don't understand why Melisandre would want to make somoene pose as Davos right now. Maybe it's something she's saving for some rainy day. Maybe she doesn't even have that bag, and only mentioned it because it was on her mind. Who knows.

[Dolorous Ed Tollet]

is it her that mentions a hero being reborn from the sea?

[Gingerly Grumkin]

i thought this also but Mel was not at Blackwater, and everything Davos did and thought in ADWD is exactly what we expect. Yet still he lost his luck for a reason...

[hotweaselsoup]

AlexKerscher, on 29 February 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Well, while I can understand the leverage that having someone posing as the Hand of the King can bring, I don't understand why Melisandre would want to make somoene pose as Davos right now. Maybe it's something she's saving for some rainy day. Maybe she doesn't even have that bag, and only mentioned it because it was on her mind. Who knows.

There is one other weird Mel quote, where she says to Davos that he had "already served the king", or something to that effect.  This "service" to which she referred was not his rowing her under the walls of Storm's End, and when she mentioned it, Davos felt uneasy.  (I wish I could find the quote, but I don't remember enough of it to be able to search with keywords.  Does anyone else remember this quote?)  My sense from the passage was that Davos didn't know what she was talking about.

Anyway, it lead me to think that perhaps Mel had switched out his fingerbones before he lost them, and had herself posed as Davos for some nefarious purpose.  I've tried to think at what point in the story would it have been useful for Mel to be Davos, and to what end...but I've drawn a blank.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

hotweaselsoup, on 29 February 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

There is one other weird Mel quote, where she says to Davos that he had "already served the king", or something to that effect.  This "service" to which she referred was not his rowing her under the walls of Storm's End, and when she mentioned it, Davos felt uneasy.  (I wish I could find the quote, but I don't remember enough of it to be able to search with keywords.  Does anyone else remember this quote?)  My sense from the passage was that Davos didn't know what she was talking about.

I think Davos simply felt uneasy because he was ashamed of his role in the whole shadowbaby killing of Penrose. As to Mel's bag of fingers mention...I think this is a good catch. I didn't notice it on my first read, but it really makes me nervous. Davos is one of my favorite characters, and I don't want Mel to get up to any evil shit using his 'luck.'

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Maybe Devan is not Devan? I dont see what this would accomplish thou...

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Maybe Devan is not Devan? I dont see what this would accomplish thou...

I don't think so. IIRC Mel mentions in her POV that she thinks Devan has a thing for her, I doubt she would be saying that about some fake Devan she had glamoured up.

[hotweaselsoup]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 29 February 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

I think Davos simply felt uneasy because he was ashamed of his role in the whole shadowbaby killing of Penrose. As to Mel's bag of fingers mention...I think this is a good catch. I didn't notice it on my first read, but it really makes me nervous. Davos is one of my favorite characters, and I don't want Mel to get up to any evil shit using his 'luck.'

Maybe, but I feel like she was implying that he had done something else.  I'll see if I can find that quote - it's possible that I'm misremembering!

[Hornfoot Manicurist]

OP, I pondered this statement myself, and came to almost the same conclusions as you.

Davos lost his fingerbones after his ship went down and he encountered the boon on the Blackwater. There's just no way that Mel, who was at Dragonstone, retrieved those fingerbones. Right?! Perhaps the prior poster is right, and she had somehow swapped them prior to the battle. It was also explain his bad luck in battle.

As to what purpose she might have for them, Davos isn't that powerful... I just can't imagine. He only has influence over Stannis, and seemingly, Stannis would be able to detect if someone was impersonating Davos, as Davos has very distinct personality traits, very loyal and honest responses.

[Septon Meribald]

I've wondered about that statement as well, but it wasn't until reading this thread that I put this thought together: As was stated Devan has quite an attachment to Mel, perhaps as was speculated she replaced Davos finger bones at some point before the Blackwater and used them to create a glamour for Davos's own son. He would know enough about his father to be able to pass for him to the king while using the glamour. The reasoning behind this would be that Stannis listens to two people, Mel and Davos and they tend to disagree. If there was one thing the Mel knew Davos would never agree with, but she felt Stannis absolutely must agree to, what better way to make it happen than to make Stannis think that both his advisers support it. I don't know yet what this one thing might be, but means and opportunity are there. Obviously without having a sufficient motive this doesn't mean all that much.

[AlexKerscher]

Davos losing two sons and having most of Stannis's fleet being crushed by Tyrion's awesomeness being due to the fact that Melisandre changed his bag of fingerbones with, dunno, chicken ribs?

SEEMS LEGIT.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Septon Meribald, on 29 February 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

I've wondered about that statement as well, but it wasn't until reading this thread that I put this thought together: As was stated Devan has quite an attachment to Mel, perhaps as was speculated she replaced Davos finger bones at some point before the Blackwater and used them to create a glamour for Davos's own son. He would know enough about his father to be able to pass for him to the king while using the glamour. The reasoning behind this would be that Stannis listens to two people, Mel and Davos and they tend to disagree. If there was one thing the Mel knew Davos would never agree with, but she felt Stannis absolutely must agree to, what better way to make it happen than to make Stannis think that both his advisers support it. I don't know yet what this one thing might be, but means and opportunity are there. Obviously without having a sufficient motive this doesn't mean all that much.

I don't think so. If Mel was going to pull this stunt, what was the one thing she wanted from Stannis most of all? Edric Storm burned. But clearly she did not use a fake Davos to convince Stannis to burn Edric. Just doesn't make sense that she would have this fake Davos card to play and not use it on Edric Storm. If Mel has Davos' missing fingerbones, I don't think she has used them just yet.

[Ser Lepus]

Davos now?! Is there still anybody who is NOT AA/PWWP/Rebornamongsaltandsmoke?

Well, truth to be told, I would like Davos to be Azor Ahai reborn; that would be a nice kick to the balls of all the people who think that the saviour has to be a royal from an ancient noble family.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 29 February 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Septon Meribald]

Ser Lepus, on 29 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Davos now?! Is there still anybody who is NOT AA/PWWP/Rebornamongsaltandsmoke?

Well, truth to be told, I would like Davos to be Azor Ahai reborn; that would be a nice kick to the balls of all the people who think that the saviour has to be a royal from an ancient noble family.

Just to be clear I'm not saying anything is fact or even likely, I'm just speculating. Moreover I am not saying that Davos is anyone other than himself. Basically my speculation ends at Mel lying to Stannis in service to R'hllor.

[Septon Meribald]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 29 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I don't think so. If Mel was going to pull this stunt, what was the one thing she wanted from Stannis most of all? Edric Storm burned. But clearly she did not use a fake Davos to convince Stannis to burn Edric. Just doesn't make sense that she would have this fake Davos card to play and not use it on Edric Storm. If Mel has Davos' missing fingerbones, I don't think she has used them just yet.

I agree that would be an ideal time to use them. My thought was that the exchange and the use was before the Blackwater. Also it would be hard to convince Stannis that Davos had changed his mind about Edric since he was dead set against the sacrifice from first mention.

[Michael Jon Snow]

As HWS said above, that line made me think that Mel had swiped Davos's bag before the battle of the Blackwater. Perhaps the ones lost at sea were fakes?
So if Davos shows up at some point fondling a bag around his neck, we can immediately suspect it is a glamour.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 29 February 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I don't think so. IIRC Mel mentions in her POV that she thinks Devan has a thing for her, I doubt she would be saying that about some fake Devan she had glamoured up.

how about, in TWOW Davos will be chilling at the Wall, and do sompthing in Stannis' name because of Mel's advice, and us the reader will be like "i thought he was with Rickon or dead" but it will actually be Devan with his dads fingerbones. She says she kept Devan for the love she bears Davos, which is such an oxymoron...

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 29 February 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[hotweaselsoup]

AlexKerscher, on 29 February 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Davos losing two sons and having most of Stannis's fleet being crushed by Tyrion's awesomeness being due to the fact that Melisandre changed his bag of fingerbones with, dunno, chicken ribs?

SEEMS LEGIT.

Thanks for the chortle.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

how about, in TWOW Davos will be chilling at the Wall, and do sompthing in Stannis' name because of Mel's advice, and us the reader will be like "i thought he was with Rickon or dead" but it will actually be Devan with his dads fingerbones. She says she kept Devan for the love she bears Davos, which is such an oxymoron...

Yea I think this could happen, I do think there might be something to Mel's mention of the bag of fingerbones. I just don't think it's happened yet. I don't really think she could have pulled off a pre-Blackwater switch-out of fake bones for the real ones, but I think she could conceivably have found the real ones (although how I have no clue).

hotweaselsoup, on 29 February 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Thanks for the chortle.

Chortle, excellent word