96 replies to this topic

[Tourniquet]

Gravey, on 02 March 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I know the 2 bolded things have been seen in the books, has anyone been wandering around with a lock of hair?

I'm thinking she most likely saw the things in a vision, she is repeating what she saw. Mel knows Davos had his fingerbones, wouldn't know about Arya and the boots, and I can't think of anyone with some hair.

Yes, the Archmaester of the Citadel that Pate steals the key from for the Alchemist.

[7V3N]

How are the boots in Arya's story connected to Mel?

[Roughspun]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

How are the boots in Arya's story connected to Mel?

Through the fevered minds of overinterpreting readers – that is, not at all.

[chris999]

hotweaselsoup, on 29 February 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

There is one other weird Mel quote, where she says to Davos that he had "already served the king", or something to that effect.  This "service" to which she referred was not his rowing her under the walls of Storm's End, and when she mentioned it, Davos felt uneasy.  (I wish I could find the quote, but I don't remember enough of it to be able to search with keywords.  Does anyone else remember this quote?)  My sense from the passage was that Davos didn't know what she was talking about.

Anyway, it lead me to think that perhaps Mel had switched out his fingerbones before he lost them, and had herself posed as Davos for some nefarious purpose.  I've tried to think at what point in the story would it have been useful for Mel to be Davos, and to what end...but I've drawn a blank.

It would be extremely usful for Mel to use her powers and present herself as Davos.

Stannis trusts Davos more than anyone, because Davos is the only one who will tell him the truth, instead of just telling the king what he wants to hear.

If at any point during the story Mel wanst to do something, but Stannis dissagrees, she can present herself as Davos and persuede Stannis to change his mind.

A perfect example would be something along the line of killing a child for king's blood or something along those lines.

I think this is a cool subject because I have never trusted Mel. She has somekind of alterior motive. She is going to end up being very evil, I am sure of it.

[Gravey]

The Shadow Fox, on 05 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

How are the boots in Arya's story connected to Mel?

It was just an example of what I theorized has happened. Janos Slynts boots were bought up after my post. I'm thinking Mel saw these 3 things in her fires, and was using them as an example when talking about glamouring.

I was asking where we had seen the 3 things Mel mentions.
Fingerbones = Davos.
Dead Mans Boots = The guy Arya kills, and then Janos Slynt's boots.
Lock of Hair = Hotweaselsoup theorizes Mel has some of Ygrittes hair, Varamy apparently has a collection of hair from wildling women, and Tourniquet up above you says the Archmaester has some hair too.

[Silver Spearwife]

I assumed she was just listing various items that usually work for such a glamour, but wasn't referring to any specific boots or hair - except the fingerbones, because quite frankly how many people own a bag of fingerbones?

But yeah, I always found that line a little unsettling. If Davos had heard her say it, he probably would have been beside himself trying to figure out what she meant.

But then, there is something to the theory that the boots and the hair are something specific. I like (though don't really buy) the idea of Ygritte's hair - that's very dark and bizarre. I just can't imagine when she would have gotten a hold of it. And it would add more meaning than a mourning youth to that scene when Jon mistakes Mel for Ygritte. Interesting.

So basically, the idea here is that she's collecting various items for additional uses with glamours?

[7V3N]

Psychobabble6, on 09 March 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I assumed she was just listing various items that usually work for such a glamour, but wasn't referring to any specific boots or hair - except the fingerbones, because quite frankly how many people own a bag of fingerbones?

But yeah, I always found that line a little unsettling. If Davos had heard her say it, he probably would have been beside himself trying to figure out what she meant.

But then, there is something to the theory that the boots and the hair are something specific. I like (though don't really buy) the idea of Ygritte's hair - that's very dark and bizarre. I just can't imagine when she would have gotten a hold of it. And it would add more meaning than a mourning youth to that scene when Jon mistakes Mel for Ygritte. Interesting.

So basically, the idea here is that she's collecting various items for additional uses with glamours?

I agree that when I first read it as her just stating things... then fingerbones. But who knows at this point.

And yes, that seems to be the theory here. Davos' fingerbones could provide great use.

Does Davos himself ever recall telling Stannis to head North? I think Stannis gives the credit to Davos for the idea, but could it have been Mel?

[bemused]

It seems to me , too , that the bag of finger bones is the one significant stand-out. You know...one of these things is not like the others.. ..the others being just generally the type of items that could be used.

I do think she's got them , but probably hasn't used them yet. The really influential actions Davos has taken to date still seem too much like Davos , too unrelated to Mel's agenda ( as far as we can tell ) to be Mel's glamoured agent. It would not have been in Mel's interest to spirit Edric Storm away , and it's Davos who would know that once Stannis was aware of the letter from the wall , he was likely to do the right thing.

Mel tells Stannis what he should do..then works to convince or manipulate him into it , usually by arranging some "proof " of her power. Do we really think any of the reported deaths were the result of her burning leeches, or were the leeches her way of taking credit and pulling Stannis further under her control ?

Davos, OTOH , just points out the salient facts and trusts Stannis ,with his rigid sense of justice , to make the "right" choices. As in the case of Edric , if he feels Stannis is going to choose wrongly , and Davos has any way of preventing it , he will..even at his own risk... In that instance, he seems to have been acting not only to save Edric , but also to save Stannis from damning himself further.

Stannis didn't need to be told to head North , he's enough of a tactician to see the value in it..once he was aware of the situation -  while Davos seems too much like himself to have been Mel's agent since the Blackwater . No-one else would have written the letters to his family from White Harbour.

She may well have reason to believe he's still alive , though , or some other reason to think they could still prove useful.

And I don't think we'd have been given a Davos POV ,if it was really someone else, without making it clear within the text..as GRRM does with Reek.

Edited by bemused, 09 March 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[7V3N]

I think if Mel was pretending to be Davos, we would not see it. I think that any Davos POV we get is in fact Davos. But who knows when Mel has snuck over to Stannis as "Davos" to give him a few "tips."

[Not Only But Also]

Gravey, on 09 March 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

It was just an example of what I theorized has happened. Janos Slynts boots were bought up after my post. I'm thinking Mel saw these 3 things in her fires, and was using them as an example when talking about glamouring.

I was asking where we had seen the 3 things Mel mentions.
Fingerbones = Davos.
Dead Mans Boots = The guy Arya kills, and then Janos Slynt's boots.
Lock of Hair = Hotweaselsoup theorizes Mel has some of Ygrittes hair, Varamy apparently has a collection of hair from wildling women, and Tourniquet up above you says the Archmaester has some hair too.

Then, there's Rattleshirt.......bone and more bones, and conveniently burned by Mel up at the wall . . .

Edited by Know Nothing, 09 March 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Ladywhiskers]

The Shadow Fox, on 02 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Mel switched the real fingerbones with fakes. She then probably acted as Davos in some occasions to persuade Stannis. Davos lost the fake fingerbones at the Blackwater.

But would a glamor make you believe you were someone else? It would make him look like Davos, but would it give him Davos' memories, personality, and sense of identity?

Rattleshirt never for a minute believed himself to be Mance Rayder, did he?

Edited by Ladywhiskers, 10 March 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[7V3N]

Ladywhiskers, on 10 March 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

But would a glamor make you believe you were someone else? It would make him look like Davos, but would it give him Davos' memories, personality, and sense of identity?

Rattleshirt never for a minute believed himself to be Mance Rayder, did he?

That does not mean we witnessed it. A foolish assumption. Davos POV=Davos. Mel could be acting as Davos when we are not witnessing it.

[Gravey]

@Knownothing

Quote

Then, there's Rattleshirt.......bone and more bones, and conveniently burned by Mel up at the wall . . .

This is exactly why I think those 3 things have a little more significance than at first glance though.
She already has an example right there in front of her. Rattleshirt's bony blouse. What reason does she have to bring up even more? It might just have been a way for GRRM to insert the fingerbones, but it might be more too.

[7V3N]

I think the presence of Mance as Rattleshirt raises suspicion. Could Mel have others among her that are not who they appear? Could some of the Queen's men actually be agents of Mel in disguise?

[unBloodraven]

Ser Lepus, on 29 February 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Davos now?! Is there still anybody who is NOT AA/PWWP/Rebornamongsaltandsmoke?

Well, truth to be told, I would like Davos to be Azor Ahai reborn; that would be a nice kick to the balls of all the people who think that the saviour has to be a royal from an ancient noble family.

Could be Brown Ben Plumm. The Dragons did like him after all...

[Capon Breath]

Jadiecat, on 02 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Like!

You set me to wondering about all the other body parts that are kicking around, and how they might come in to play.

I've been racking my brain (as did Tyrion) over Illyrio's motivation to put Dany and Griff on the throne--he is intensely emotionally involved, he's put in long and enormous effort as well as treasure.

He has money. He has everything he needs, he's not especially power hungry. The only thing he can't have is Sera back.

I have a sense that he thinks Dany and Griff in power will lead to some outcome in which he will have access to the magic needed to bring Sera back from the dead.

Using her hand, that he keeps in his bedroom. Just for this purpose, I'm thinking. A different sort of magic. (Body parts may be multifunctional).

Anyway, I've gone far afield. I think it's quite an interesting idea that Mel may in fact have Davos's finger bag.


I wonder if Varys has held onto his balls? Does anybody have "Reek's" little Reek? Jaime's hand? What other body parts are out there to cause potential mischief in the right magical hands?

I just noticed last night that Roose Bolton gets Jaimies Hand from Vargo Hoat. He gives it to one of his men I think to "dispose of" !

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Ladywhiskers, on 10 March 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

But would a glamor make you believe you were someone else? It would make him look like Davos, but would it give him Davos' memories, personality, and sense of identity?

Rattleshirt never for a minute believed himself to be Mance Rayder, did he?

You mean Mance doesn't think of himself to be Rattleshirt?  Because he is very Mance-ish and not like the man he is glamoured to be.

[Uncat]

jarl the climber, on 29 February 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Well the weird thing about this is that Melisandre burned Lord Sunglass and two other men who tried to protect the Sept on Dragonstone during or right after the Blackwater battle, its not clear why she did this. We know that Davos woke up on his little rock with his bag of fingerbones gone next to a swollen corpse. His last memories were of being underwater drowning but when he is talking to Salla Saan in the next chapter he tells him that he swum under the the chain and to the rock which is unusual because it contradicts his inner monolougue and is the only instance in the book where he lies. My theory is that the disappaerance of his bone bag and Mels burning these men, the deaths of his sons, and his own survival are tied together somehow but I don't know if we will ever get the truth about it. For all we know the swollen corpse was the real Davos and the new one is an illusion given form by his fingerbones and sustained by his faith and the sacrifice of his sons and the men who tried to defend the sept on Dragonstone.

Well, as long a we get Davos whining about his lost lucky bones, we will know that we have the real guy. And for all I know, there is not a single POV from him, where he is not lamenting his lost luck. So for now he is real. And what ever he did between drifting into the burning barrickade and ending up on his rock, the living guy on the rock is still our good ols chap Davos. And when he returned to Dragon ston no one was wondering, the he had already seen Davos elsewhere. As for the uneasy feeling, this is just because he knows that he did have a part in the Killer-Shadow-Episode eventhough he tries to convince himself, that he had nothin to do with it.

Maybe Mel has Davos bones and maybe she'll use them. But she did not do it yet.

[7V3N]

Uncat, on 29 March 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Well, as long a we get Davos whining about his lost lucky bones, we will know that we have the real guy. And for all I know, there is not a single POV from him, where he is not lamenting his lost luck. So for now he is real. And what ever he did between drifting into the burning barrickade and ending up on his rock, the living guy on the rock is still our good ols chap Davos. And when he returned to Dragon ston no one was wondering, the he had already seen Davos elsewhere. As for the uneasy feeling, this is just because he knows that he did have a part in the Killer-Shadow-Episode eventhough he tries to convince himself, that he had nothin to do with it.

Maybe Mel has Davos bones and maybe she'll use them. But she did not do it yet.

As I have said before, assuming that Mel as Davos would be in a POV chapter is silly. It likely happened while we were not "watching." It could even be during a Davos POV. But if we get a POV, then we can assume it is the real Davos.

[Armstark]

The Shadow Fox, on 29 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

As I have said before, assuming that Mel as Davos would be in a POV chapter is silly. It likely happened while we were not "watching." It could even be during a Davos POV. But if we get a POV, then we can assume it is the real Davos.

What would be the benefit of something we as readers dont get to see and never hear about? Just makes no sense.I think the mention of fingerbones is just a red herring by GRRM. At the very best it could foreshadow somethin in the future, but certainely nothing has happened yet.