400 replies to this topic

[Renasko]

Seeing as how no one has opened a new thread yet, and the old one is dead and on the next page, I figured I'd open this one with something I wrote on another site...nostalga heavy...

I was reading this article concerning editing in Football Manager and it got me feeling nostalgic. Considering how I love going back to old management sims just to manage the stars of the 90's and early to late 2000 years, in particular, this is really up my street. I find myself really missing the old teams. Hell, I even give the RM Galacticos a bash, even though it's no challenge whatsoever and I'm no fan of the club.

The team they had was unreal:

Casillas

Salgado, Ivan Helguera, Walter Samuel, R.Carlos

Claude Makelele
Figo, Zidane, Guti

Ronaldo, Raul

Then you consider they had guys like Woodgate, Michael Owen, Beckham, Morientes, Solari, etc.

At other clubs, you had players like Shevchenko, Veira, Henry, Ronaldinho, Van Nistlerooy, Keane, Gerrard, Nesta, Stam, Lucio, Ballack, Totti, Del Piero, Gatusso, Elber, Kluivert, Larsson, Inzaghi, Crespo, Veron, Makaay, Nedved, ...


Best football final in terms of personnel, in my experience, was the Euro 2000 final. France had just won the WC two years before, at home, and were favourites going into the tournament, but I'm not sure if anyone really expected them to do the Double.

EURO 2000 France 2 Italy 1 - YouTube

Trezeguet winning it with the golden goal was unbelievable. One of the best sporting moments of the 2000 decade, in my opinion. I'll never forget that goal.

Nor this one:

Ryan Giggs v Arsenal (FA Cup Semi-Final Replay 1999) - YouTube

Just a couple of years before, and a piece of skill like it you'll struggle to find. Not that that was even the best United moment of the late 90's (a time when the club were actually admirable)...

Manchester United V.S Bayern Munich 1999 UEFA final - YouTube

Everyone remembers that moment!

Another great example of past footballing excellency was our own club's efforts in Europe. The pinnacle of that being MON's campaigns, with the UEFA Cup final run being the finest. The resulting game was the biggest heartbreak I've ever felt over a football game.

UEFA Cup Final 2003 : Celtic vs Porto - Highlights - YouTube

"Larsson scores! Of course he does, he always scores."

As the saying goes, 'the likes of which we'll never see again'.

At Liverpool, they had one of the greatest CL finals of all time, a couple years later.

Liverpool vs Ac Milan Uefa Champions League final 2005 - YouTube

I recall having a discussion with a diehard Reds fan about that final, who had to be pulled out of the bathroom sobbing at half-time...boy how a game of football can change.

The last 5, 6, 7 years have really decreased the importance of football in my eyes. There's not the same passion, the rivalries are all strange. City-United? Laughable not so long ago! Celtic-Rangers? Walk in the park for the Hoops. Madrid-Barca? Doesn't really matter: two-horse race, the other teams in Spain are a class below. Ajax - who? Juve - who?

I think a sign of football deteriorating was the 2006 WC. The 2010 WC was no better, either. Here's hoping the tournament in Brazil raises the standard of the game. With the potential of seeing the likes of Ganso and Neymar, the boys from Santos, leading the home boys, you'd have to fancy them. And Spain have done their country credit with the standard of play they've adopted, mostly born from the Barca/Cruffy project.

Maybe this summer we'll see Germany set the standard of the Euros, as the personnel in their squad is dazzling. They have the potential to give one of the best tournament showing recent years.

But who'll ever forget the Keane/Veira rivalry, or the Wenger/Ferguson war of the previous decade?

I'll never forget the MON days at Celtic. Strachan failed to accomplish what he did, in my eyes, despite his achievements. Lennon will struggle to replicate such a team.

I want to bang out a 'it's just not the same!'...

Was football better then, or did it all happening in my youth (at least) mean it set a picture of how football should be, and thus has affected my perspective?

Will it get better?

Edited by Jhogo, 28 February 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Renasko]

PS. I hate the international break.



So, win: http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/17191931

[MercenaryChef]

the simple answer to 'was football better' is this:

i simply think that the overall level of skill was not as high. i have a couple sweet videos one being the top goals and saves of the first 10 years of the premiership and the top goals in champions league history. you see some simply staggering bits of play in this highlight videos. but, they are typically by a handful of players.

henry makes me giggle when i see some of his near effortless goals as a youngster for the gunners. shearer could seemingly do anything he wanted. ronaldo, zidane, etc, etc.

now you have an enormous crop of studs. sure, you have your upper tier of ronaldo and messi. but, there is a tier beneath that is also fantastic. not to mention i think defenders have improved dramatically.

[Iskaral Pust]

I think football is played at a higher standard now but the improvement in organization raises the bar for individual ability capable of beating the defence.  We also have more teams now who sit more deeply, reducing the number of attacking players present in any given attack and therefore reducing opportunties to score.  This is a reasonable reaction to greater disparity in finances to buy the highest quality attackers but it definitely reduces entertainment value.

Income inequality does not help football either.

[Onion Smuggler]

It's not that long ago though some of the things you're talking about, half the players you listed still play.

I think there has been an increase in overall ability, but it's not happened recently, it happened a while ago, when the game became more commercialised and money started pouring in, which effectively made it into a business, and this caused the bar to start being raised. Money started pouring into the game and it became much more professional.

Football probably wasn't better then, but there was less of a divide between the best and the rest. Now you have Barcelona and Real, who are just streets ahead of other teams, whilst teams that used to compete on a European scale; Liverpool, Arsenal, Valencia, Juventus and Milan to name a few, whilst they are still good teams, just aren't able to keep up with the elite sides. Liverpool and Arsenal were in the Champions League final a few years ago, pretty inconceivable either getting anywhere near to that any time soon.

[Renasko]

Money has indeed warped things, but the standard hasn't improved that much when the richest team in the world are going back to old pros like Veira (last year) and Hargreaves (this year), and you have managers like Neil Lennon lamenting the lack of characters in the game, nowadays.

How would the City team compare to the Madrid Galacticos?

Are Silva, Aguero, Nasri, Dzeko, Balotteli and co. that great? I don't think so...

[Onion Smuggler]

Yes they may be rich, but that doesn't automatically mean they can attract the best players in the world. Real Madrid, as much as I dislike them, have a massive club stature, any player in the world would want to play for the most successful Club ever in Europe and potentially, the biggest club in the world.

I think David Silva is that great to be honest, I don't know if you watch the premier league, but he is the best player in it at the moment by a distance.

Yes they have gone to signed some older players, but mainly for cover of other positions. I think Hargreaves has played one game for them?
You can't really compare Man City and Real Madrid either to be honest, they are on nowhere near the same scale in terms of fan base, history and stature.

[MercenaryChef]

the city side is nothing compared to that team of madrid. however, give that city side two more seasons together and they will rival any team europe has to offer. it pains me to predict that.

those players you mentioned are really good. add to it tevez and toure, clichy, barry, lescott, milner, kompany, de jong. once this team gels under mancini they will be something to fear on the pitch and to laugh at in the world of finances.

[Renasko]

I merely wished to drive home my point of the difference in class of the rich teams, these days, to the ones of the past. City do have an awesome CD pairing, though, and Yaya Toure is a gifted midfielder. David Silva is a lovely player to watch, but Zidane and Figo were superior players. The rest of their players would struggle to get onto the teams of top clubs of the 90's and 2000 decade.

Inevitably the team that is foremost in people's minds now would be Barcelona, but is not theirs a success of team play and work rate, rather than blinding skill, drive and will? They're a fantastic team, but a different model than other greats of European football.

Edited by Jhogo, 28 February 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[MercenaryChef]

jhogo, players like iniesta, xavi, danny alves and messi would find a place on all teams in all eras i think.

[Renasko]

Messi is a singularly awesome player, and Xavi and Puyol would get in any team, across the decades, but that's about it.

Iniesta is a good argument, but was he any better than Guti, for example? Zidane was a better player than him, to continue with my RM comparison. If you wanted to move it to another team, is Iniesta better than Veron or Scholes were? I'd say not. Better than Gerrard at his best? Or Totti? Or Ballack?

[polishgenius]

Onion Smuggler, on 28 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I think David Silva is that great to be honest, I don't know if you watch the premier league, but he is the best player in it at the moment by a distance.

Pfft. Imo Van Persie is not only the best player in the league but, this season, the best in the world.

[lessthanluke]

Puyol would not get in any team accross the decades. Don't overate him.

[MercenaryChef]

Jhogo, on 28 February 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Messi is a singularly awesome player, and Xavi and Puyol would get in any team, across the decades, but that's about it.

Iniesta is a good argument, but was he any better than Guti, for example? Zidane was a better player than him, to continue with my RM comparison. If you wanted to move it to another team, is Iniesta better than Veron or Scholes were? I'd say not. Better than Gerrard at his best? Or Totti? Or Ballack?

i want to help you tout ballack, i really do. i used to really love him. but, iniesta holds the ball and creates as well as he ever did. scholes is a world unto himself. he always impresses. i truly hope he and giggs are capable of playing into their 50's. football deserves them. and yes, iniesta is better than gerrard at his best.

but, i back luke in saying puyol is terribly overrated. he is a great player in the spain/barca system. but, i could see him totally getting exploited on a premiership team.

[Renasko]

I don't want to argue, as he's really a player I hold in high esteem. His best days are behind him, of course, but you still get first-class performances from him. Such a solid defender. Spanish Richard Dunne.

[Stubby]

Football in Australia is about to be thrown into turmoil.  The FFA has cancelled the licence of one particular team, Gold Coast United, largely due to the antics of the club's owner.

Linky

The FFA says the owner and the club have brought the game into disrepute.  The owner says he is immediately going to the Courts.

Not good for anyone.

Edited by UnStubby, 28 February 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[lessthanluke]

Puyol would get exposed in any team that isn't Spain/Barca IMO. One of the most over rated players of this generation but we've had this argument many times in these threads. I think on the whole the standard of football and therefore defences has increased so its harder for individual players to stand out.

[Teng Ai Hui]

Calibander said:

Indeed. It's a two-horse race now, but then I guess most agreed it always was. Still, Spurs play United next week, if they win, they're back in, somewhat. And that is not an impossible feat against this United side.

Hopefully, god will forgive this one sacrelige because I intend to root for Utd this time. I'd much rather see Arsenal beat Liverpool and gain another 3 points against Spurs. Then hopefully Wenger will shut up about how "getting 4th place will be our trophy this year" and start convincing the players that 3rd place is still achievable.

Edited by Teng Ai Hui, 29 February 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[Soylent Brown]

UnStubby, on 28 February 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Football in Australia is about to be thrown into turmoil.  The FFA has cancelled the licence of one particular team, Gold Coast United, largely due to the antics of the club's owner.

Linky

The FFA says the owner and the club have brought the game into disrepute.  The owner says he is immediately going to the Courts.

Not good for anyone.

Admittedly, I 've not read too far into this, but at the moment I'd be more inclined to side with the club, given that football organisations seem to be numpty-magnets.

I mean, one of the issues the FFA has is that the club displayed 'Freedom of Speech' logos on their shirts. Really?

[mormont]

Soylent Brown, on 29 February 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Admittedly, I 've not read too far into this, but at the moment I'd be more inclined to side with the club, given that football organisations seem to be numpty-magnets.

I posted about this in the last thread, so you can go back and take a look at the link for more info. But the short version is, it's not about 'the club' - it's about the owner, a guy who forced his manager to name a 17-year-old captain on his debut and then sacked said manager for suggesting that the appointment was largely symbolic. And this is amongst the least of his sins. A knee-jerk 'football administrators are all bad' reaction is pretty silly anyway, but in this case it's really not backed up by even a casual acquaintance with the facts.