400 replies to this topic

[ericxihn]

Bayern relies too much on moments of brilliance from Robben/ Ribery and doesn't really have a system that ties the team together.

[Calibandar]

Well, Toni Kroos and before him Schweinsteiger have played an important role as well. Certainly you shouldn't overlook Gomez who has been instrumental on his own, 25 bundesliga goals and counting, not to mention many other goals in other competitions, and then there's Mueller as well. A very good team when they are on form.

Dortmund is very good as well, but to me, not as nice a team to watch. It feels like they are a more coherent team though.

Polish

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I don't hate Bayern (only Ribery) and I'm with Jon. Dortmund are about the most entertaining team to watch that there is when they're on the game, imo. Them or Bielsa's Athletic.

You know, Athletic isn't *that* great a team really. They certainly ran circles around United this season, that's true, and twice. But in the Spanish division they are genuinely a second tier side. And that ties into your United comment.

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Yes, it has often been scrappy and unpretty but we just went 12 games unbeaten

Yes it has been, continiously so. And we've lost quite a few matches as well, let's not forget that. We didn't win the Carling Cup, we've been knocked out of the FA cup, we've been knocked out of the CL group stage, and then we were knocked out, with no chance whatsoever, in the UEFA cup. In the meantime we also got destroyed by City, who have certainly been the more attractive side of the two Manchester teams, this season. That must be a first.

Which just leaves the EPL, in a year that is characterized by greater poverty of the big teams than in any year in the past decade that I can recall. And all of that, along with those very small scrappy and unpretty wins colour my picture.

You on the other hand are extremely forgiving of United, because apparently, football is all about statistics, and look at that, we might be over 80 points in the impoverished EPL this year. Wow.

I'm negative because they have been either shit ( like against Wigan) , or just good enough to win a lot of matches by the skin of their teeth. I'm not impressed, at all.

Edited by Calibandar, 13 April 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Jon AS]

Man, letting Harnik go must be counted as one of the stupider decisions by Werder in recent years. Ye gods, this team is in desperate need of a general overhaul. Fingers crossed they can make it work.

Calibandar, on 13 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Well, Toni Kroos and before him Schweinsteiger have played an important role as well.

Yet when Kroos was sorely needed against Dormund to provide a threat through the centre he didn't do anything. Of course that was partly due to Dortmund pressuring Bayern's defense so early they played most of their passes to the wingers, which had already been neutralised. Can we at least agree that Klopp is a superior tactician to Heynckes, then?

Calibandar, on 13 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Certainly you shouldn't overlook Gomez who has been instrumental on his own, 25 bundesliga goals and counting, not to mention many other goals in other competitions, and then there's Mueller as well.

Müller is having an indifferent season, and Gomez doesn't create anything on he's own, his mostly a poacher. He's damn good at that, but if he doesn't get any service you don't need to worry about him at all.

[polishgenius]

Calibandar, on 13 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

You know, Athletic isn't *that* great a team really. They certainly ran circles around United this season, that's true, and twice. But in the Spanish division they are genuinely a second tier side. And that ties into your United comment.

Yeah but 'best' and 'most entertaining' are assuredly not the same thing because if it was, Arsenal would be regular winners of doubles and trebles. That's not to say Madrid or Barcelona are boring but Bielsa's madman philosophy (have you ever seen one of their players let the ball run for a corner, goal kick or throw in or attempt to play it off the opposition for the same? It just doesn't happen, they try to pass no matter what or where they are on the pitch; you regularly their players busting out Cruyff turns on their own goal line and Chile were the same) means I find them more fun to watch.

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You on the other hand are extremely forgiving of United, because apparently, football is all about statistics, and look at that, we might be over 80 points in the impoverished EPL this year. Wow.

I am quite forgiving, yeah, but don't get me wrong, I don't think we have any laurels to rest on; improvement is needed badly and the record with/without Scholes shows just how badly we need a possession midfielder in the summer.
But the way you go on about it it's as if we were Liverpool or even Wolves and our position at the top of the table was pure fluke.

[mormont]

Every time I hear Cali complain about how Man U are playing, I flash to Chico and Groucho arguing over horse tips:

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"Sun-up is the worst horse on the track!"

"I notice he wins all the time."

"Eh, that's just because he comes in first."

"Well, I don't want him any better than first. Two dollars on Sun-up."

As it is, yes, Man U have edged out some scrappy wins - as they have done each and every year they've won the title. They've also had some stylish, attractive, dominant wins, again as they do every year they've won the title. They've had a very poor year in Europe, but again this is not unprecedented, particularly with a squad that's in transition. The notion that the Premier League is in some way uniquely bad this year is hard to stand up: Chelsea and Liverpool are having bad years, Arsenal had a bad half season followed by a good one, but Tottenham, Newcastle and of course Man City are having extremely good years. In fact, not since the early days of Abramovich have Man U faced a challenge like that coming from City this year. Yet Man U are leading them all, despite the fact that Man City in particular have a squad of players that stands comparison with any in the world.

Winning the League this year will represent a successful season for Man U and a notable achievement, even if the performance in other competitions has been poor.

[Calibandar]

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Every time I hear Cali complain about how Man U are playing

Well look, I commented that we played shit against Wigan, and that it was unworthy of a champion, and that nobody seems to want to win the title this year. That seems fair enough to me.

Polish then challenges me on that so I am forced to explain yet again what I feel about United as a whole. I could have ignored it of course.

But Mormont, yes, Man U are leading City, Newcastle and Spurs in the league. Statistically, we have at least played a good EPL season, evem if we failed at everything else. But aside from statistics, and having seen 90% of the games, it just hasn't been up to snuff.

On the whole the guys posting in this thread seem very forgiving of United, yourself included. Some mates of mine in the UK who count themselves as longstanding United fans are much more critical of the team's performance.

Edited by Calibandar, 14 April 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[Maltaran]

So you'd prefer United to lose but play attractive football instead of winning ugly?

[mormont]

I understand the mentality, to an extent. United fans are not only used to success, they're used to gilt-edged, diamond-encrusted success. It leads to people being over-critical when a year like this comes along: one that is by any sane measure successful, but not as successful as some of the fans expect, or not successful on the terms some of the fans would like.

But there are a couple of things to bear in mind. One is that nobody gets those gilt-edged years every year. Eventually every 'big team' hits a bump. If your team's hit one and is still winning, particularly in the competition that matters most, the rational reaction is 'thank fuck we're still winning', rather than 'this isn't good enough for me'. Because plenty of big teams, when they hit that inevitable bump, end up with a season more like the one Chelsea are having rather than the one Man U are having.

The other thing is that there are nineteen managers in the Premier League alone who would trade their left testicle to be where Man U are. At least eighteen of them would trade the other one to have the players Man U have got, and to have their teams performing and playing as Man U are doing.

In the end, your position doesn't come off (to me at least) as a clear-eyed refusal to be carried away by mere statistics: it comes off as the complaint of a man whose palate is jaded by a constant diet of success.

[polishgenius]

Calibandar, on 14 April 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

that nobody seems to want to win the title this year.

This is the real thing that I had a problem with in that particular quote. It implies that you think that we should never ever lose to the 'lesser' teams and that in the course of a normal United season, that doesn't happen.
I probably wouldn't have batted an eye if it wasn't for our previous discussions but with such repetition of criticism - after the aforementioned 12 game unbeaten run, natch, of which 11 were wins - you really do come off as... well, frankly, spoiled.

[polishgenius]

And in more important and tragic news, Piermario Morosini, of Livorno, collapsed and died of a heart attack on the pitch in their game today.

Some really disturbing reports that the ambulance was delayed by six minutes by a police car parked in the entranceway. And honestly if one looks at the footage that's around the refereeing is terrible, he's down for a good few seconds with players near him screaming at the ref for attention and medics to come on but he's so intent on the play that even though he's looked over his shoulder and seen he's down, he doesn't stop the game.

[Flayed Starkman]

The federations need to take this increasing problem more seriously. If there is even the smallest possibility of a player having cardiac problems, the game needs to be stopped and medics rushed on the field.
What happenend in Italy was not good enough, even if they say they couldn't have saved him

[Renasko]

Pisses me off when games are decided by hilariously awful decisions by referees. I don't want to despise them, but I do.

Also turns me right off the game when a team, who's philosophy is anti, negative, dull football, wins and gets the glory.

Fuck right off. Nothing fair about that result at all.

Edited by Jhogo, 15 April 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[mormont]

Jhogo, on 15 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Pisses me off when games are decided by hilariously awful decisions by referees.

Some confusion here: the Celtic goal was a hilariously awful decision, yes. Miles offside and should never have been given. But that didn't decide the tie, happily - the penalty decision cancelled it out.

We might also mention the ref's curious reluctance to penalise several dives by Celtic players in the last ten minutes of the second half, but for once, we don't need to, since the result didn't depend on that, either.

The better team won.

Now for the really big one. Either we win for the third time in fifteen years, and condemn Hibs to their 110th year without a Scottish Cup (and their tenth final defeat in the last century): or we lose, and Hibs throw off their hoodoo in the most satisfying way imaginable. It's either glorious victory or the most crushing defeat imaginable: nothing in between! I'll be on the edge of my seat!

[Flayed Starkman]

Jhogo, on 15 April 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Pisses me off when games are decided by hilariously awful decisions by referees. I don't want to despise them, but I do.

Also turns me right off the game when a team, who's philosophy is anti, negative, dull football, wins and gets the glory.

Fuck right off. Nothing fair about that result at all.

Are you referring to the Barcelona penalty? If so, I couldn't agree more

[Inigima]

West Ham 6 - 0 Brighton, and Doncaster relegated. The world is in its proper order.

I'm still bitter that there is no good way for me to watch West Ham games here, but I am going to make the effort and give Major League Soccer a go (I know, I know). From here in Baltimore, DC United is obviously going to be my team. Everyone will hate me, but as a West Ham supporter I'm used to that.

[Renasko]

mormont, on 15 April 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Some confusion here: the Celtic goal was a hilariously awful decision, yes. Miles offside and should never have been given. But that didn't decide the tie, happily - the penalty decision cancelled it out.

We might also mention the ref's curious reluctance to penalise several dives by Celtic players in the last ten minutes of the second half, but for once, we don't need to, since the result didn't depend on that, either.

The better team won.

Now for the really big one. Either we win for the third time in fifteen years, and condemn Hibs to their 110th year without a Scottish Cup (and their tenth final defeat in the last century): or we lose, and Hibs throw off their hoodoo in the most satisfying way imaginable. It's either glorious victory or the most crushing defeat imaginable: nothing in between! I'll be on the edge of my seat!

Mormont, no way were you the better team. What did you do besides score a hit and rush goal quickly into the second-half? Your team were an embarrassment to the country with their stance during the 99% of the game. Everyone back in your half, keeping it narrow, soaking up pressure and relying on a fluke chance to win the game.

On one hand, you could say, it's okay. Your team is conceding we're the better side. But you need to have more ambition than that in a knockout game with so much riding upon the defeat, especially when we're fielding a relative newcomer at RB, two terrible centre-halfs and Mulgrew in his worst position. Not to mention Wanyama (our best ball-winner) sitting the game out.

It was ridiculous how deep your side sat. That's why the attack that produced the goal was so potent. We did not expect you to actually come out and have a go.

Flayed Starkman, on 15 April 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Are you referring to the Barcelona penalty? If so, I couldn't agree more

Sorry, was referring to Hearts being awarded a penalty in the 90th minute of a Scottish semi-final cup game...for a handball. Perfect example of ball to hand, as well. Of course, there was one at the other end that wasn't awarded soon after.

Typical football.

[mormont]

Jhogo, on 15 April 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Mormont, no way were you the better team.

I know one way, at least.

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What did you do besides score a hit and rush goal quickly into the second-half? Your team were an embarrassment to the country with their stance during the 99% of the game. Everyone back in your half, keeping it narrow, soaking up pressure and relying on a fluke chance to win the game.

We had four shots on target, and numerous other chances. Yes, it was counterattacking football: but in a cup semi-final against a team with vastly greater resources, playing counter-attack is a reasonable tactic. It was a long way from Inter vs Barcelona, I'll tell you that. (And the stats will bear that out.)

As for 'embarrassment to the country', I don't know if I'd want to raise that in a match where your players flopped to the ground all over the place when they ran out of ideas, and your manager ran halfway across the pitch to have a public temper tantrum at the ref after the final whistle...

The refereeing was a sideshow: one goal given that (as a matter of fact) should not have been given, one penalty awarded that (as a matter of opinion) was perhaps a little soft. You can argue the penalty however you like, but the fact is that at worst it balanced out the offside 'goal'. In the end you guys lost because Lennon got it tactically wrong and Sergio got it tactically right. That's the story here. As much as you might prefer Sergio to have played different tactics so that your team could have won, I think your time would be more usefully spent wondering why Lennon didn't do the same. (As I've said before: whatever other qualities he might have, Lennon really isn't a great tactician.)

ETA

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Wanyama (our best ball-winner) sitting the game out

That's the same Wanyama that played the last 20 minutes, right?

Edited by mormont, 15 April 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[lessthanluke]

I dont know why you bother mormont. Jhogo has no objectivity when it comes to Celtic. Probably the least impartial fan on the board.

[Renasko]

Aye? Hearts should've been down to 10 men, anyway, and I didn't even mention that: https://twitter.com/...7001216/photo/1

We played into Paulo Sergio's hands today and got punished, that's that. We dominated possession. Final stat was 60/40 in our favour, and was 70/30 for most of the match. We had twice as many attempts on goal. Our setup was more attack-minded. How is this bias stating things like this? Perfectly obvious to anyone who watched the game.

If Ki received any kind of training when it comes to headers, we would've been 2-nil up. Two free headers that he pathetically hits off the posts.

I'm more passionate than most on here, which may be why it comes across as impartiality. I don't know...I watched the game with a neutral today who was equally as infuriated with what she was seeing.

[Renasko]

You don't follow a team Luke, so I'm not surprised by your belief that I have no objectivity. Anyone who is a fan of a club will feel slighted at some stage or another, hence Neil's tweet just now:

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Neil Lennon ‏ @OfficialNeil

• Close

Referee told players he thought Wanyama handled...feel so sorry for players and fans..I think it's personal myself

That's how it feels. Of course it's irrational, but that's football. I try to remove myself from these things and judge the game fairly, and I feel I do.

I'm not even pissed off with Craig Beattie!