468 replies to this topic

[Pliny]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 28 February 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

This has been discussed many times over the highlights of the Aegon is fake argument:
-Quaithe warns Dany about a 'mummer's dragon'
-In the House of the Undying Dany sees a cloth dragon
-Dany is supposed to be the 'slayer of lies'
-The Golden Company was founded by Bittersteel, a Blackfyre supporter, who vowed to one day seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. The Golden Company is now supporting Aegon
-Varys is said to have contributed to Aerys' madness, leading many to suspect he is a Blackfyre trying to undermine the Targs
-If Illyrio and Varys are all about Targs, why did they do such a shitty job of helping Dany and Viserys, why didn't they reveal Aegon to them? Perhaps because they actually support the Blackfyres
-Illyrio appears to be very attached to Young Griff, suggesting that he is his child with a female Blackfyre

My mind has been blown. This is why I come to these fora. There is so much to take in just one reading... I did not put this together.

[Lord Damian]

reek it rhymes with meek, on 29 February 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Most of you are stupid american idiots and you force water on your windmill. So just because dany reminded illirio of his wife yo usay his wife was some part blackfyre...... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvau einsteins! So did Jorah on his second wife. Hey maybe everysingle character is a secret targ except aegon? You stupid idiots.
And that stupid bullshit...he was introduced so lately in the series? And? Fuck you Jon snow and R+L=J. Fuck arya and all other stupid and farytail characters in this series. Remember Varys suggested to aerys not to let tywin in KL. So Varys is pro Targarien! Varys pro Blackfyre is just your made up bullshit. And you are stupid.
Whoever disagrees with me can go and suck Hodor`s cock.

So, tell us how you really feel.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

atpthornton, on 29 February 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

So now the prophesies have value? Just interesting that they weren't to be trusted till one pointed to the outcome you seem to want.

I don't seem to want that outcome, I do want it.

[Lord Damian]

Josh, on 29 February 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

One thing I don't understand is in GoT, when arya overhears varys and illyrio talking about delaying war because drogo wont stir himself until his son is born and all that...there is no mention of anything even remotely alluding to aegon.  Granted it was early in the series, but it just seems like dany and viserys was their only plan.

I know, this scene makes the Aegon/Young Griff angle completely come out of the blue. This and the fact that they gave Dany 3 dragon eggs makes me think that perhaps they (Varys and Illyrio) might, might have ideas on how to hatch the eggs, I do not know but they seemed, according to what was said to Tyrion to be getting rid of the Targs, which would have been the last legit Targs in the World. Perhaps they were trying to get rid of the Dothraki  from sacking Pentos and other cities in the west of Essos but why the eggs, when they are so valuable. I keep thinking that they were looking to get something more out of the betrothal to Drogo than to simply "off" the Targ kids.

[Queen of the Vale]

I find it strange that it's been left to the last book to reveal him, if he's just going to be yet another pretender to the throne, which makes part of me think he's real. But, that could mean that he is a fake Aegon, but actually some other significant character. I'd like to think he is real though. But I'll reserve my judgement for now As for the motives of Illyrio and Varys, perhaps (if he is real) this is a way of showing us that they do have true loyalty, even if we don't expect it.

[Buried Treasure]

Dany and Viserys had one retainer; Ser Willam Darry. After he died they had no retainers until Jorah Mormont gave his sword to Viserys. The threat of slavery was a very real thing, as it proved to be for Tyrion & Jorah in Dance because despite being  nobleborn they were friendless.

The Blackfyres had 10,000 retainers - all the Golden Company. If a daughter of the Blackyres got taken into slavery the Golden Company would be seeking to rescue her. The officers of the GC we see in Dance are not clued in on any secret plots, but nor do they make any mention of the Blackfyres.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 29 February 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

I don't seem to want that outcome, I do want it.

Fine you want it, so now the prophecies in the HOTU mean something since you found a theory that supports what you want. I just think it is interesting that UNTIL you did find a theory you liked you thought the prophecies had no value.  Either the prophecies have value or they don't, and if they have value there is a good case to be made for Aegon not being who he claims to be (though I firmly believe that regardless of the actual truth both Aegon and Griff genuinely believe that he is Rhaegar's son so they aren't putting him forward as Aegon knowing that he is fake).  Frankly I think it can go either way (though the switch really does only work in hindsight...and no Varys couldn't have crushed the baby's head after the fact b/c Gregor confesses to bashing the kid's head in himself) and still work with the story.

Edited by atpthornton, 29 February 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[reek it rhymes with meek]

Queen of the Vale, on 29 February 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I find it strange that it's been left to the last book to reveal him, if he's just going to be yet another pretender to the throne, which makes part of me think he's real. But, that could mean that he is a fake Aegon, but actually some other significant character. I'd like to think he is real though. But I'll reserve my judgement for now As for the motives of Illyrio and Varys, perhaps (if he is real) this is a way of showing us that they do have true loyalty, even if we don't expect it.

He has not been left to be revealed in last book he was revealed in 5 book which takes place as the 4 book...and books 4/5 were meant to show new players and those who waited in shadows... so lot of other people are fake like arriane etc etc

[Dragonfish]

dtones520, on 29 February 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

My point was more that a lot of peoples theories about Aegon stem from the mummers dragon statement by Quaithe, but those people all seem to think Quaithe is this nice lady helping Dany. I just want to understand her motives and i dont think they are in Danys best interest.

Who is relying on Quaithe's statement? If anything, the prophecy that most people rely on is the one from the House of the Undying, where we first heard of the mummer's dragon. Quaithe's statement is just a reminder of that vision; it is not at all required for the fake-Aegon theory to work.

Quote

I dont know. Im just not convinced that Aegon is fake. It makes more sense to me that he is real based on everything that we know. Mainly being, i dont think Connington is stupid and i think he would notice if Aegon looks nothing like his mother or father. Every other child in this series bears some resemblance to their parents. Conningtons memory of Rhaegar seems to be a pretty important thing to him. Plus, if he is Illyrios son, like people think, wouldnt he bear some resemblance to him? Wouldnt Connington notice that?

I think Syrio's story to Arya about the cat is instructive here. Surely all those who came before him had seen a cat before, yet when told by the sealord that it was a wondrous and rare creature, they came up with all sorts of out-there theories about what it was.

The point being, people see what they want to see. Connington sees Aegon as Rhaegar's son because he needs to. He is desperate for redemption, and Aegon is his path to that.

[Nymphetamine]

reek it rhymes with meek, on 29 February 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Most of you are stupid american idiots and you force water on your windmill. So just because dany reminded illirio of his wife yo usay his wife was some part blackfyre...... uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuvau einsteins! So did Jorah on his second wife. Hey maybe everysingle character is a secret targ except aegon? You stupid idiots.
And that stupid bullshit...he was introduced so lately in the series? And? Fuck you Jon snow and R+L=J. Fuck arya and all other stupid and farytail characters in this series. Remember Varys suggested to aerys not to let tywin in KL. So Varys is pro Targarien! Varys pro Blackfyre is just your made up bullshit. And you are stupid.
Whoever disagrees with me can go and suck Hodor`s cock.

LOL

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

atpthornton, on 29 February 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Fine you want it, so now the prophecies in the HOTU mean something since you found a theory that supports what you want. I just think it is interesting that UNTIL you did find a theory you liked you thought the prophecies had no value.

Ok I'm glad you find it interesting. I did however admit that I spoke too soon before you quoted me.

[Nymphetamine]

Buried Treasure, on 29 February 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

Dany and Viserys had one retainer; Ser Willam Darry. After he died they had no retainers until Jorah Mormont gave his sword to Viserys. The threat of slavery was a very real thing, as it proved to be for Tyrion & Jorah in Dance because despite being  nobleborn they were friendless.

The Blackfyres had 10,000 retainers - all the Golden Company. If a daughter of the Blackyres got taken into slavery the Golden Company would be seeking to rescue her. The officers of the GC we see in Dance are not clued in on any secret plots, but nor do they make any mention of the Blackfyres.

Dany was threatened with being sold into slavery and she is a Targaryen. You really don't think its possible that a descendant of a long dead house could possibly have ended up as a slave? She most likely didn't even use or have the Blackfyre name. I mean its been what, a hundred years since Maelys (sp?) was slain?

Edited by Nymphetamine, 29 February 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[the Remarkable Other]

Nymphetamine, on 29 February 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Dany was threatened with being sold into slavery and she is a Targaryen. You really don't think its possible that a descendant of a long dead house could possibly have ended up as a slave? She most likely didn't even use or have the Blackfyre name. I mean its been what, a hundred years since Maelys (sp?) was slain?

Maelys was slain by Ser Barristan. It's been around 40 years since then.

[Faint]

Does no one else find it suspiciously convenient that the three main characters were all born to mothers that died during their respective births and that they are all Targaryens?

I know people like their fanciful theories and all that, but when the three heads of the dragon end up being the three most obvious choices and the two hidden Targaryens are those that were already being hinted at from the first half of the first book, I think a whole lot of people are going to be feeling really silly.

[Apple Martini]

Fire and Blood!, on 29 February 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

The story with the tavern dragon - Is it really so hard to belive that it's just an entertaining story within the story with no hidden meaning?

It wasn't a purple dragon that turned blue or a black dragon that turned yellow or a yellow dragon that turned red or a black stag that turned red. It was a black dragon that turned red. Is it that hard to imagine that it could mean something or be a clue to something? If it meant nothing, why include it? And why have it coincide with two very specific sigils?

Faint, on 29 February 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Does no one else find it suspiciously convenient that the three main characters were all born to mothers that died during their respective births and that they are all Targaryens?

I do not think Tyrion is a Targaryen. The mothers who died in childbirth might end up being a linking correlation, but I'm not convinced that it has any causality beyond being a coincidence, nor am I at all convinced that Tyrion is Aerys' son and not Tywin's.

[Lummel]

The other way to look at it is to ask what evidence is there that Aegon is real?

Jon Connington & co believe he is real, Varys doesn't say that Aegon is real - but it looks like that's the impression he wants to give Kevan, the Aegon we are shown appears to be about right in terms of age and appearance and the cover story isn't impossible.  Varys only mentions Rhaenys' death to The Ned when he is in the black cells in AGOT.  I think that's about it in terms of supporting evidence.

But if he is real that gives us some problems
What are Varys and Illyrio's motivations in supporting him
Why was only Aegon saved (which leads to a set of sub-problems, when was he saved and how did varys persuade Elia that it was so dangerous that Aegon had to be taken away but at the same time safe enough for her and Rhaenys to stay, why does no word leak out, how actually do they escape)
Why wasn't baby Aegon taken to Dragonstone
Why wasn't a court in exile established
Why were Viserys and dany abandoned
Why when Viserys turns up at Illyrio's to sell Dany are they treated the way that they are
Why is Barristan sent east to Dany instead of being sent to Aegon (who better than Ser Barristan the Bold, a survivor and Aerys' kingsguard to knight and vouch for Aegon)
Why haven't Varys and Illyrio reached out to potential targaryen supporters in westeros (or if they have Connington is unaware, its the Golden Company who have "friends in the Reach")

of course more or less convincing answers can be provided for all these questions, but the point is believing that Aegon is real isn't an ideal solution - it's problematic and there isn't much evidence for it.  Ultimately the whole thing is only potentially believable through the stroke of luck that the corpse of baby Aegon was unrecognisable.

[Spider]

Aegon should take a three-headed red herring as his sigil. just saying.

[Gala]

I would probably sound strange, but it is related to the topic…sort of:

Why on Earth we were reading 4 books and only in the 5th the true heir appeared? It just seem strange to me! It is not an evidence that Aegon is a fake, I just wonder why? All that we were reading before would make no sense, because we haven't even know this guy to like him (I always thought that one of the main character should be a king rather than some stranger).

Don't get me wrong, I do not know whether he is fake or not (although, I prone to think he is a false dragon) and I think his appearance makes a wonderful twist, but it seems a little bit (I don't know even how to call this…well let it be) strange to heir and a PtwP to be discovered almost at the end of a series. it is not logical. Unless GRRM wants to impress us, but frankly I would be disappointed, if is a real heir and will sit on the Iron Throne. I hope that Varys and Illirio fail their purpose, I don't like what they do.

I do think that he is a Blackfyre, but neither he nor his companions know that he is not a Targ. The boy was raised to thinking that he is.

[FanTasy]

kg1982, on 29 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

There are lots of clues throughout ADWD that something isn't right with Aegon's identity.  However, the biggest clue to me is that it would be poor storytelling if Aegon was...  It would make no sense to build up both Dany and Jon over the course of five books and then suddenly say that the most important player was a character who didn't even show up until the fifth book and that the two main characters are no longer important.

I'm not sure Aegon is real. There are some pretty good arguments for that he is not. The bolded one in your text I wonder about though.
If Aegon turns out to be the real thing, why would this lessen the importance of Dany and Jon and their character arcs?
All three of them could have some important role to play and be very important for whatever is the endgame.
I doubt ASOIAF is a story were the climax is just based on who has Targaryen genes.
Or for that matter who will have his or her cheeks on the Iron Throne

[Queen Cersei I]

Turkey Jack, on 28 February 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Im with you, If he is not the real deal I would say Griff is in on it, or completely deluding himself

I'd say with what we've heard from Griff, the self delusion thing might not be all that far off. Dude is clearly clouded by his lifelong obsession with Rhaegar, and his guilt at having "betrayed" his old love. It would be easy for all that guilt, self-hatred, and single mindedness of purpose to lead to self-delusion on a massive scale.

IMO, Griff struck me as the (far, far less pervy and more tragic) version of Littlefinger-- he just can't get over that childhood love. But maybe I'm just dissapointed that our first overtly gay male character didn't include any guy on guy, fantasizing, or even clear evidence of gayness. (Seriously, if GRRM wouldn't have said Jon C. was gay, I wouldn't have guessed.)

But on to the topic-- I highly doubt that Elia would have risked her life running away with a fake replacement baby. Or failed to recognize her own bloody one year old child. There are numerous other issues, but I'll just assume that others here have covered them, since I'm too lazy to read through this entire thread.

Though I've heard that GRRM has dubbed Amazon.com reader reviewers as stupid, useless, etc., imo, one of them had it about right when he summed up the Aegon subplot. She notes that young Griff "represents either the most vibrantly crimson scarlet of red herrings, or George R.R. Martin on waterskis leaping majestically over a great white shark." My feelings exactly.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 29 February 2012 - 03:17 PM.