468 replies to this topic

[Silmarien]

Ygrain, on 03 March 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

I agree that Varys definitely didn't save Gendry out of kindness, and your reasoning seems plausible.
Knowing and presenting publicly evidence are two different things. The folk of KL had little love for Cersei, and as such were prone to believe the worst of her. However, cutting down the support of nobles would require more than just some juicy gossip, and no attempt at presenting proof has been done so far.


Yeah, that was a wonderful slip of tongue

I understand what you're saying.  It's like something everybody whispers about but has no proof of, and Tommen still is King of the Iron Throne.....for now.  

[7V3N]

The mummer's dragon is one hint. The Theon WoW chapter gives a hint of foreshadowing for a Blackfyre. The Blackfyres have all of the Targaryen traits because at Daemon (the original Blackfyre) had Targ blood through both parents. It makes a connection between Varys and Illyrio's plan. Varys is the only one who can give any evidence as to whether or not YG is Aegon.

[Shay Baratheon]

This is one of the most fascinating threads I've read, and after reading all, the Aegon Blackfyre theory seems most solid. I don't like prophecies, but I'm sure they are right, as many prophecies have been, especially those exhibited in the Tales of Dunk and Egg.

[Buried Treasure]

Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Because becoming a slave in Essos is incredibly easy. Dany herself was threatened with being sold into slavery. It isn't hard to believe that somewhere down the line a Blackfyre descendant became a slave.

It's true Dany might have become a slave:
- When she and her brother were penniless and friendless in the free cities. If that had for some reason happened she would have fetched a high price because of her royal blood, and would have had no friends to pay her ransom or free her through arms.
- Or, after she became a queen and conqueror. She was threatened with slavery which would have only have happened after  her Unsullied and dragons and free-men had been defeated in war - and they were already committed to fighting her in war because she was destroying the slave trade. If she has been defeated she would have had no friends to pay her ransom or free her through arms.

A Blackfyre could have at some point been take as a slave, in which case either: -
- the Golden Company didn't know. So they couldn't be in on a secret plot.
- or they would have tried to free said Blackfyre through ransom or force of arms, so the Blackfyre would have been freed again.

[7V3N]

Oh, and I forgot to mention the foreshadowing of the tale from Septon Meribald.

[Nymphetamine]

Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

It's true Dany might have become a slave:
- When she and her brother were penniless and friendless in the free cities. If that had for some reason happened she would have fetched a high price because of her royal blood, and would have had no friends to pay her ransom or free her through arms.
- Or, after she became a queen and conqueror. She was threatened with slavery which would have only have happened after  her Unsullied and dragons and free-men had been defeated in war - and they were already committed to fighting her in war because she was destroying the slave trade. If she has been defeated she would have had no friends to pay her ransom or free her through arms.

A Blackfyre could have at some point been take as a slave, in which case either: -
- the Golden Company didn't know. So they couldn't be in on a secret plot.
- or they would have tried to free said Blackfyre through ransom or force of arms, so the Blackfyre would have been freed again.

We have no idea if the commander of the GC after Maelys even knew about the female line, or if he even cared. Blackheart is the one who honors the contract writ in blood. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that since the GC didn't know that a Blackfyre descendant somewhere became a slave, that means they couldn't be in on a plot to put a Blackfyre on the throne. Once again, Blackheart Toyne is the important one here.

Thats all fine about Dany, point it she still could have been a slave. So a descendant of a long dead house becoming a slave in Essos isn't a stretch at all. I'm not sure how this is so hard to believe.

Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Nymphetamine]

double post

Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[kg1982]

The Unborn, on 03 March 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

He's bossy because he wants to lead the battle? He's knows you can't be a king if you don't lead your own battles and he needs to be seen. That doesn't make him bossy at all.
He's an ass because he makes Tyrion clean up his mess, but that doesn't make him a bad king.

This is a book, not real life.  In real life, one could argue that there is too little known about fake Aegon's character from one incident.  However, it is most definitely enough information to form an opinion on him as a literary character, especially a secondary one.  The cyvasse temper tantrum was added by George to point out that perhaps Young Griff is a spoiled brat, not a well brought up young man.  It strikes me as something that Joffrey or Robert Arryn would do and it makes Varys speech at the end all the more ironic.  It's all lies.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

kg1982, on 03 March 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

This is a book, not real life.  In real life, one could argue that there is too little known about fake Aegon's character from one incident.  However, it is most definitely enough information to form an opinion on him as a literary character, especially a secondary one.  The cyvasse temper tantrum was added by George to point out that perhaps Young Griff is a spoiled brat, not a well brought up young man.  It strikes me as something that Joffrey or Robert Arryn would do and it makes Varys speech at the end all the more ironic.  It's all lies.

This is an excellent point. GRRM puts the cyvasse tantrum into the text to reinforce the idea that no matter how you try to shape a person, power changes them. So you can make sure Young Griff gets all the education you can in religion, history, war, and that he lives among commoners and works with his hands- but you tell him he is the King of Westeros he is going to be a prick in spite of it all, because power corrupts.

Edit: I should say that power usually/often corrupts. Egg from Dunk and Egg seems to have been a truly nice fellow, although we have yet to see him as king. It takes a very special person to resist the ego inflation that power gives.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 03 March 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Buried Treasure]

Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

What? We have no idea if the commander of the GC after Maelys even knew about the female line, or if he even cared. Blackheart is the one who honors the contract writ in blood. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that since the GC didn't know that a Blackfyre descendant somewhere became a slave, that means they couldn't be in on a plot to put a Blackfyre on the throne. Once again, Blackheart Toyne is the important one here.

Thats all fine about Dany, point it she still could have been a slave. So a descendant of a long dead house becoming a slave in Essos isn't a stretch at all. I'm not sure how this is so hard to believe.

Isn't this particuraly version of the Blackfyre theory arguing that the Golden Company at the present time has links to Illyrio because he was married to Serra who was a Blackfyre? There are other Blackfyre theories, but this is the one I am arguing against at the moment.

Yes a Blackfyre could have become a slave if the GC were ignorant of that Blackfyre. What I have a problem with is the GC being presented with the child of a slave and a Pentoshi merchant and being told 'he is actually a Blackfyre heir through a branch of the family you did not know existed, we should launch a secret plot to steal the throne of Westeros'.

I agree anybody can become a slave, but slaves are by definition friendless and powerless. The Golden Company is a powerful friend and nobody associated with them would remain a slave for long.

[Nymphetamine]

Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Isn't this particuraly version of the Blackfyre theory arguing that the Golden Company at the present time has links to Illyrio because he was married to Serra who was a Blackfyre? There are other Blackfyre theories, but this is the one I am arguing against at the moment.

Yes a Blackfyre could have become a slave if the GC were ignorant of that Blackfyre. What I have a problem with is the GC being presented with the child of a slave and a Pentoshi merchant and being told 'he is actually a Blackfyre heir through a branch of the family you did not know existed, we should launch a secret plot to steal the throne of Westeros'.

I agree anybody can become a slave, but slaves are by definition friendless and powerless. The Golden Company is a powerful friend and nobody associated with them would remain a slave for long.

Your second paragraph is the biggest hole in the theory, I agree with that. The commander of the GC after Maelys could have known about the female line, he just might not have cared. He could have thought the female line wasn't important enough to support. Blackheart is the one who chose to support the female line and honor the contract writ in blood.

And one more thing, we only have Illyrio's word that Serra was a slave (iirc) so we don't even know for sure if that's true. Illyrio could just say she was a slave to cover up her Blackfyre heritage.

Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[Nymphetamine]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 03 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

This is an excellent point. GRRM puts the cyvasse tantrum into the text to reinforce the idea that no matter how you try to shape a person, power changes them. So you can make sure Young Griff gets all the education you can in religion, history, war, and that he lives among commoners and works with his hands- but you tell him he is the King of Westeros he is going to be a prick in spite of it all, because power corrupts.

Edit: I should say that power usually/often corrupts. Egg from Dunk and Egg seems to have been a truly nice fellow, although we have yet to see him as king. It takes a very special person to resist the ego inflation that power gives.

Martin put the tantrum in to show that Aegon has flaws, and that he isn't as perfect as Varys says he is.

[Gala]

Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Martin put the tantrum in to show that Aegon has flaws, and that he isn't as perfect as Varys says he is.

Agree, I can't see, for example, person like Jon doing such a thing, but a little spoiled young man (or the one that can't stand loosing) definitely can.

[Ser Lepus]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 03 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

This is an excellent point. GRRM puts the cyvasse tantrum into the text to reinforce the idea that no matter how you try to shape a person, power changes them. So you can make sure Young Griff gets all the education you can in religion, history, war, and that he lives among commoners and works with his hands- but you tell him he is the King of Westeros he is going to be a prick in spite of it all, because power corrupts.

Edit: I should say that power usually/often corrupts. Egg from Dunk and Egg seems to have been a truly nice fellow, although we have yet to see him as king. It takes a very special person to resist the ego inflation that power gives.

It must be a very difficult task to prepare somebody who is living in obscurity among commoners to be a future king; for somebody raised in palace as a royal prince, that´s his normalcy, it´s nothing special, but, for somebody who is living as a commoner, being told he has to become king is as being told he has to become an astronaut, something so beyond his experience that barely can be grasped.

You have to reinforce his sense of self worth and confidence so he feels he can live up the task, but wihout inflating his ego so much he thinks himself some kind of super-man above mere mortals.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 03 March 2012 - 03:37 PM.

[Dark Rider]

Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Why do you believe it is highly possible Serra was a Blackfyre with connections to the GC when she was sold as a common bed-slave?

I get what you're saying though that if she had connections to the Gold Cloaks why would she become a slave? Why wouldn't the Gold Cloaks look out for her?

I don't know, but then I'm not 100% sure she was a common bed-slave. Of course, I've only read through aDwD once though so maybe I need to go through it again.

[Dark Rider]

Ser Lepus, on 03 March 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

It must be a very difficult task to prepare somebody who is living in obscurity among commoners to be a future king; for somebody raised in palace as a royal prince, that´s his normalcy, it´s nothing special, but, for somebody who is living as a commoner, being told he has to become king is as being told he has to become an astronaut, something so beyond his experience that barely can be grasped.

You have to reinforce his sense of self worth and confidence so he feels he can live up to the task, but wihout inflating his ego so much he thinks himself some kind of super-man above mere mortals.

I think the best way to handle the transfer of power from previous King to the next would be for the Prince to be crowned King while his father was still alive allowing his father to go into retirement and serve as an advisor.  Had Ned been made protectorate of the realm long enough and been willing to steer Joffrey not knowing he was a product of incest than Joffrey would have had the benefit of that Father Figure and advisor even though I don't think it would have been enough to make Joffrey a good king it might have kept him from being an absolute tyrannt.  Griff has Connington, but he's not going to be around long now thanks to the Greyscale.  Griff will just have to be put his place with Varys reminding him that all of this has been given to him and all of it can be taken away if he starts to go mad with power.

[Ser Lepus]

Dark Rider, on 03 March 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I think the best way to handle the transfer of power from previous King to the next would be for the Prince to be crowned King while his father was still alive allowing his father to go into retirement and serve as an advisor.

Yes. That has been made by some of the most powerful and sucessful monarchs of history: Charles I Habsburg did that, and Tokugawa Ieyasu too. The roman emperors even created a special title for that purpose (the senior emperor was the Augustus, and the junior emperor, who shared his power, was the Caesar; when the old Augustus died, the Caesar was promoted to Augustus and had to name a new Caesar to share his power. If the new Augustus didn´t have any adult son or son in law ready to take the title, he just adopted somebody.

Dark Rider, on 03 March 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Had Ned been made protectorate of the realm long enough and been willing to steer Joffrey not knowing he was a product of incest than Joffrey would have had the benefit of that Father Figure and advisor even though I don't think it would have been enough to make Joffrey a good king it might have kept him from being an absolute tyrannt.

Or he could pretend he was going to do that, and once he had the reins of power capture Joffrey and hand him to Stannis...but poor Ned wasn´t good at subtley.

Dark Rider, on 03 March 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Griff has Connington, but he's not going to be around long now thanks to the Greyscale. Griff will just have to be put his place with Varys reminding him that all of this has been given to him and all of it can be taken away if he starts to go mad with power.

Varys has not power to do that; if Aegon is ever crowned, Varys can assassinate him, but not dethrone him, and if he dares to threaten him, he will be toast...heck, I would kill Varys the minute I seized the throne, even if he kissed my ass and promised undying loyalty! He is too dangerous.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 03 March 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Buried Treasure]

Dark Rider, on 03 March 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I get what you're saying though that if she had connections to the Gold Cloaks why would she become a slave? Why wouldn't the Gold Cloaks look out for her?

I don't know, but then I'm not 100% sure she was a common bed-slave. Of course, I've only read through aDwD once though so maybe I need to go through it again.

I don't really trust much of anything we are told by Illyrio but I think it makes sense to believe the story he tells of Serra.

Illyrio says that he was allowed into the upper class of Pentoshi society because his first wife was well-born. But when he freed and married Serra he was barred from the palace because she had been a lowly slave. If she was not a common slave but known as a daughter of a noble lineage fallen on bad times then Illyrio freeing and marrying her would not be so shameful. There is no advantage in making up this whole complex story just to tell Tyrion so I don't think Illyrio is lying here.

[Ice Turtle]

Ser Lepus, on 03 March 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

It must be a very difficult task to prepare somebody who is living in obscurity among commoners to be a future king; for somebody raised in palace as a royal prince, that´s his normalcy, it´s nothing special, but, for somebody who is living as a commoner, being told he has to become king is as being told he has to become an astronaut, something so beyond his experience that barely can be grasped.

Problem with Aegon is that he probably never seen anyone rule. Even Davos has more experience in this, just from observing Stannis. Bad luck that he couldn't pass as high lord's bastard with same education as the heir....

[Ice Turtle]

Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I don't really trust much of anything we are told by Illyrio but I think it makes sense to believe the story he tells of Serra.

Illyrio says that he was allowed into the upper class of Pentoshi society because his first wife was well-born. But when he freed and married Serra he was barred from the palace because she had been a lowly slave. If she was not a common slave but known as a daughter of a noble lineage fallen on bad times then Illyrio freeing and marrying her would not be so shameful. There is no advantage in making up this whole complex story just to tell Tyrion so I don't think Illyrio is lying here.

What about making Tyrion believe Aegon is Targeryen. He may have been a little suspicious if Illyrio told him she was Blackfyre. I think that there was no need to tell any story, and this one was made just in case like Wylla, but one of Illyrio's faults is clearly that he talks too much