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If Illyrio did not want Tyrion to know anything about his wife he could have just not told him anything about her. Making up a story about rising to the top of Pentoshi society then being barred because the wife was a common slave was not necessary.
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Why can't Aegon be the real deal?
Started by
mtwebster
, Feb 28 2012 04:11 PM
468 replies to this topic
#342
Ice Turtle
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:21 PM
IIlyrio told Tyrion that:
Statue in garden is him.
That there was never a nobler lad than YG.
About Serra and probably more.
He told Grif that Tyrion was Yollo.
Of course it was not necessary, but IIlyrio talks too much, and as Tyrion noticed his less then clever lies would have been end of him, if not for Varys.
Statue in garden is him.
That there was never a nobler lad than YG.
About Serra and probably more.
He told Grif that Tyrion was Yollo.
Of course it was not necessary, but IIlyrio talks too much, and as Tyrion noticed his less then clever lies would have been end of him, if not for Varys.
#343
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:43 PM
If Illyrio were lying with everything he says to Tyrion, I may as well argue that he was lying about even having a wife and that proves the 'Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son' theory can't be right.
But I actually think he is probably only lying where he has a reason to, and that the rest of the time he is likely telling the truth. So when Illyrio is talking about Westeros, the GC, Dany or his plans I question what he is saying, when he is talking about subjects Tyrion has no more than a passing curiousity about (such as his wives) I guess he's probably being truthful.
When Illyrio says the statue in the garden is him he could be just boasting, but it matches with the story he later tells of being a bravo.
He might have a motive to lie to Tyrion about YG, this is his candidate for a throne. But Tyrion notices he is emotional so he may genuinely believe there is no nobler lad. That suggests to some people that they are blood relations but it is not proof, he might have just been impressed by the boy from fostering him.
He has motive for lying to the Duckfield and the half-maester about Tyrions name. He does not want Tyrions true name being known until Griff has read the letter Illyrio sent (which does explain who Tyrion is and why he is in exile).
Serra is mentioned as part of Illyrio telling Tyrion his own life story.
- He was a poor bravo that teamed up with Varys to steal and win back property. Tyrion does want to know how Illyrio teamed up with Varys, but this part of the tale matches some of what we already know of Varys. Varys was cut young and left to fend for himself, he has his little birds and here we are offered an explanation of how that system evolved.
- Illyrio became so rich he was able to marry into the city's elite. No motive to lie about this.
- As a widower he had bed-slaves, one he loved so much he married, and was therefore cast out of the elite. He expresses feelings of loss for Serra, which would be enough reason for him to talk about her to Tyrion.
If Serra was a Blackfyre, one would have to ask, who knew?
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
But I actually think he is probably only lying where he has a reason to, and that the rest of the time he is likely telling the truth. So when Illyrio is talking about Westeros, the GC, Dany or his plans I question what he is saying, when he is talking about subjects Tyrion has no more than a passing curiousity about (such as his wives) I guess he's probably being truthful.
When Illyrio says the statue in the garden is him he could be just boasting, but it matches with the story he later tells of being a bravo.
He might have a motive to lie to Tyrion about YG, this is his candidate for a throne. But Tyrion notices he is emotional so he may genuinely believe there is no nobler lad. That suggests to some people that they are blood relations but it is not proof, he might have just been impressed by the boy from fostering him.
He has motive for lying to the Duckfield and the half-maester about Tyrions name. He does not want Tyrions true name being known until Griff has read the letter Illyrio sent (which does explain who Tyrion is and why he is in exile).
Serra is mentioned as part of Illyrio telling Tyrion his own life story.
- He was a poor bravo that teamed up with Varys to steal and win back property. Tyrion does want to know how Illyrio teamed up with Varys, but this part of the tale matches some of what we already know of Varys. Varys was cut young and left to fend for himself, he has his little birds and here we are offered an explanation of how that system evolved.
- Illyrio became so rich he was able to marry into the city's elite. No motive to lie about this.
- As a widower he had bed-slaves, one he loved so much he married, and was therefore cast out of the elite. He expresses feelings of loss for Serra, which would be enough reason for him to talk about her to Tyrion.
If Serra was a Blackfyre, one would have to ask, who knew?
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
#344
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:57 PM
Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:
If Illyrio were lying with everything he says to Tyrion, I may as well argue that he was lying about even having a wife and that proves the 'Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son' theory can't be right.
But I actually think he is probably only lying where he has a reason to, and that the rest of the time he is likely telling the truth. So when Illyrio is talking about Westeros, the GC, Dany or his plans I question what he is saying, when he is talking about subjects Tyrion has no more than a passing curiousity about (such as his wives) I guess he's probably being truthful.
When Illyrio says the statue in the garden is him he could be just boasting, but it matches with the story he later tells of being a bravo.
He might have a motive to lie to Tyrion about YG, this is his candidate for a throne. But Tyrion notices he is emotional so he may genuinely believe there is no nobler lad. That suggests to some people that they are blood relations but it is not proof, he might have just been impressed by the boy from fostering him.
He has motive for lying to the Duckfield and the half-maester about Tyrions name. He does not want Tyrions true name being known until Griff has read the letter Illyrio sent (which does explain who Tyrion is and why he is in exile).
Serra is mentioned as part of Illyrio telling Tyrion his own life story.
- He was a poor bravo that teamed up with Varys to steal and win back property. Tyrion does want to know how Illyrio teamed up with Varys, but this part of the tale matches some of what we already know of Varys. Varys was cut young and left to fend for himself, he has his little birds and here we are offered an explanation of how that system evolved.
- Illyrio became so rich he was able to marry into the city's elite. No motive to lie about this.
- As a widower he had bed-slaves, one he loved so much he married, and was therefore cast out of the elite. He expresses feelings of loss for Serra, which would be enough reason for him to talk about her to Tyrion.
If Serra was a Blackfyre, one would have to ask, who knew?
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
But I actually think he is probably only lying where he has a reason to, and that the rest of the time he is likely telling the truth. So when Illyrio is talking about Westeros, the GC, Dany or his plans I question what he is saying, when he is talking about subjects Tyrion has no more than a passing curiousity about (such as his wives) I guess he's probably being truthful.
When Illyrio says the statue in the garden is him he could be just boasting, but it matches with the story he later tells of being a bravo.
He might have a motive to lie to Tyrion about YG, this is his candidate for a throne. But Tyrion notices he is emotional so he may genuinely believe there is no nobler lad. That suggests to some people that they are blood relations but it is not proof, he might have just been impressed by the boy from fostering him.
He has motive for lying to the Duckfield and the half-maester about Tyrions name. He does not want Tyrions true name being known until Griff has read the letter Illyrio sent (which does explain who Tyrion is and why he is in exile).
Serra is mentioned as part of Illyrio telling Tyrion his own life story.
- He was a poor bravo that teamed up with Varys to steal and win back property. Tyrion does want to know how Illyrio teamed up with Varys, but this part of the tale matches some of what we already know of Varys. Varys was cut young and left to fend for himself, he has his little birds and here we are offered an explanation of how that system evolved.
- Illyrio became so rich he was able to marry into the city's elite. No motive to lie about this.
- As a widower he had bed-slaves, one he loved so much he married, and was therefore cast out of the elite. He expresses feelings of loss for Serra, which would be enough reason for him to talk about her to Tyrion.
If Serra was a Blackfyre, one would have to ask, who knew?
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
Bittersteel and the GC didn't lift a finger to help Daemon II Blackfyre with his rebellion, and this was when it was still the GC's main goal to sit a Blackfyre on the throne. It is perfectly possible that the commander of the GC after Maelys death didn't even care about the female line. So I don't agree that they would try to free any Blackfyre descendant who was a slave.
#345
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:03 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:
Bittersteel and the GC didn't lift a finger to help Daemon II Blackfyre with his rebellion, and this was when it was still the GC's main goal to sit a Blackfyre on the throne. It is perfectly possible that the commander of the GC after Maelys death didn't even care about the female line. So I don't agree that they would try to free any Blackfyre descendant who was a slave.
#346
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:08 PM
Ser Lepus, on 03 March 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:
What could Bittersteel have done? Daemon II Blackfyre was discovered and captured in Westeros when he was preparing his new rebellion, and Bittersteel was in Essos (maybe preparing his attack?). Once Daemon II was in Bloodraven hands, there was little he could do to help him, and attacking would have ended only in defeat and maybe in the death of Daemon.
I'm talking about how Bittersteel and the GC didn't even help him before he was captured. They didn't support Daemon's claim and never game him the Blackfyre sword iirc.
#347
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:17 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:
I'm talking about how Bittersteel and the GC didn't even help him before he was captured. They didn't support Daemon's claim and never game him the Blackfyre sword iirc.
#348
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:20 PM
Ser Lepus, on 03 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:
Well, they were working in secret. Daemon II sailed to Westeros and started contacting those who fought for his father, so maybe publicy supporting him (drawing Bloodraven attention towards him) before they were ready to start the new rebellion would have been dangerous. Or maybe Daemon II was impatient and started without Bittersteel approval.
Perhaps. My point is that not the GC didn't support Daemon II's claim so It wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that the GC after Maelys death didn't care to support the female line until Blackheart who honors the contract writ in blood.
This shows its possible the GC didn't care that a Blackfyre descendant ended up being a slave.
Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 08:22 PM.
#349
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:31 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:
Perhaps. My point is that not the GC didn't support Daemon II's claim so It wouldn't be much of a stretch to think that the GC after Maelys death didn't care to support the female line until Blackheart who honors the contract writ in blood.
This shows its possible the GC didn't care that a Blackfyre descendant ended up being a slave.
This shows its possible the GC didn't care that a Blackfyre descendant ended up being a slave.
#350
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:46 PM
Ser Lepus, on 03 March 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:
I´m not sure the current GC cares too much about any Blackfyre line (many, perhaps most of them are commoners that have stealed an old name, and not real descendants of Blackfyre loyalists or even real descendants of westerosi nobles)...it´s just part of their history, something that makes them feel they are something more than a mere mercenary company, but I´m not sure they would have supported Aegon if he had gone to them claiming to be the son of the daughter of the daughter of Maelys Blackfyre.
Oh I completely agree that the men of the GC don't particularly care about the Blackfyres at all, they probably just care about getting money and going home. However, I believe Blackheart Toyne is a Blackfyre loyalist. He is the one who honors the contract writ in blood.
#351
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:52 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:
Bittersteel and the GC didn't lift a finger to help Daemon II Blackfyre with his rebellion, and this was when it was still the GC's main goal to sit a Blackfyre on the throne. It is perfectly possible that the commander of the GC after Maelys death didn't even care about the female line. So I don't agree that they would try to free any Blackfyre descendant who was a slave.
I do agree that somebody not associated with the Golden Company but with a drop or two of Blackfyre blood could end up as a slave, I agreed upthread that pretty much anybody can end up a slave if they don't have money, power or friends.
#352
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:57 PM
Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:
If a Blackfyre descendent is not important enought to be worth freeing from slavery then their son would not be important enough to back for a kingship is the point I am trying to make.
I do agree that somebody not associated with the Golden Company but with a drop or two of Blackfyre blood could end up as a slave, I agreed upthread that pretty much anybody can end up a slave if they don't have money, power or friends.
I do agree that somebody not associated with the Golden Company but with a drop or two of Blackfyre blood could end up as a slave, I agreed upthread that pretty much anybody can end up a slave if they don't have money, power or friends.
So because one GC commander didn't care enough about a Blackfyre descendant to rescue her from slavery, that means Blackheart wouldn't support one? I'm not really sure how you can think that.
I'm not saying that Aegon is the only rightful Blackfyre heir. I'm saying that Aegon just has Blackfyre blood in him.
Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 09:06 PM.
#353
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:26 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:
So because one GC commander didn't care enough about a Blackfyre descendant to rescue her from slavery, that means Blackheart wouldn't support one? I'm not really sure how you can think that.
The Golden Company didn't rescue anybody from slavery. Illyrio freed Serra because he loved her.
If Serra were of Blackfyre lineage, and taken into slavery, the Golden Company would not have decided 'we won't bother rescuing her, but we will monitor her to see who she gets sold to'. If somebody is taken into slavery and not worth saving then they have been written off - and from the perspecive of the Golden Company that would be the point when the Blackfyre line ceases to exist.
So when Blackheart becomes commander it doesn't matter if he has a different attitude to the Blackfyres - there are no more Blackfyres to support.
Why would the GC believe that a son of Illyrio by a former slave is a legitimate Blackfyre when he turns up years later? What proof would Illyrio be offering them?
Edited by Buried Treasure, 03 March 2012 - 09:28 PM.
#354
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:34 PM
Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:
The Golden Company didn't rescue anybody from slavery. Illyrio freed Serra because he loved her.
If Serra were of Blackfyre lineage, and taken into slavery, the Golden Company would not have decided 'we won't bother rescuing her, but we will monitor her to see who she gets sold to'. If somebody is taken into slavery and not worth saving then they have been written off - and from the perspecive of the Golden Company that would be the point when the Blackfyre line ceases to exist.
So when Blackheart becomes commander it doesn't matter if he has a different attitude to the Blackfyres - there are no more Blackfyres to support.
Why would the GC believe that a son of Illyrio by a former slave is a legitimate Blackfyre when he turns up years later? What proof would Illyrio be offering them?
If Serra were of Blackfyre lineage, and taken into slavery, the Golden Company would not have decided 'we won't bother rescuing her, but we will monitor her to see who she gets sold to'. If somebody is taken into slavery and not worth saving then they have been written off - and from the perspecive of the Golden Company that would be the point when the Blackfyre line ceases to exist.
So when Blackheart becomes commander it doesn't matter if he has a different attitude to the Blackfyres - there are no more Blackfyres to support.
Why would the GC believe that a son of Illyrio by a former slave is a legitimate Blackfyre when he turns up years later? What proof would Illyrio be offering them?
That is the one hole in the Blackfyre theory, figuring out how Blackheart knows that Aegon is a Blackfyre. Obviously we have to wait for the other books to come out to give us more information. I believe Aegon is a Blackfyre because there is circumstantial evidence for it, and it explains Varys and Illyrio's actions completely. The shit Varys does/has done just doesn't make sense if he is a Targaryen loyalist.
Aegon may not be a Blackfyre, but he definitely isn't Rhaegars son.
Edited by Nymphetamine, 03 March 2012 - 09:36 PM.
#355
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Posted 03 March 2012 - 10:48 PM
Nymphetamine, on 03 March 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:
Aegon may not be a Blackfyre, but he definitely isn't Rhaegars son.
I think this is an important point. I think some posters think that if you believe the latter, you also buy into the former. While I actually do think he's a Blackfyre, I'm perfectly willing to hear other ideas. But he's not Rhaegar's Aegon.
#356
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:21 AM
Buried Treasure, on 03 March 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:
If Serra was a Blackfyre, one would have to ask, who knew?
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
1. Serra, obviously. For her to be a legitimate Blackfyre she would have has to have been born free (as I do not believe slaves in Essos are permitted to marry). She would have needed to be at least a few years old when taken to know her true identity (~4?).
2. NOT the Golden Company. They were Blackfyre loyalists and would have tried to free any Blackfyre taken as a slave.
3. NOT the slavers who sold her to Illyrio. They could have gotten a better price for the last Blackfyre than they did for a bedwarmer sold to a Pentoshi cheese-merchant.
4. Illyrio, but not til after he purchased her. She would not have had any proof but I suppose he might have loved her enough to believe her anyway.
It would be possible that Aegon is Serra's Blackfyre son, if all the above were true. And if by some coincedence Serra gave birth to a son at about the same time Elia did And after the true Aegon and Serra were both dead Illyrio decided to send his beloved son away to gamble all on a dangerous plot instead of raising him in his own household as heir to his own vast (and secure) fortune. I just think it is a weak theory.
2) The Golden Company is more concerned with reclaiming their lands in Westeros. The Blackfyre cause has been (apparently) abandoned by the Golden Company.
3) Illyrio could have easily lied about Serra's past to protect his plot. Everything else could be true, but we must take everything with a grain of salt.
4) With how slick Varys is, he could have been tracking her for a long time. Love may have been an indirect consequence of their plan.
^Just playing devil's advocate.
Illyrio could be trying to seat Aegon on the throne because it was the wish of Serra. Maybe she would tell Illyrio her dreams of Fire and Blood and how much she would love to seat her family on their "rightful" throne. We see through Dany how important "home" is, despite knowing nothing about home.
Also, read The Mystery Knight. Glendon Flowers showed that he could represent the figure of Fireball's son, even if he was a bastard or not even Fireball's son at all. He played the part because he believed he was and it meant so much to him to be the son of Quentyn Ball.
My point: There may always be a Blackfyre Rebellion since the line faded and became untracked, and anyone (esp with Valyrian features) could rise up to be that Blackfyre to lead the next rebellion. This brings me to my theory that Varys wants to wed a Targaryen and Blackfyre as King and Queen of the Seven Kingdoms so that there may be closure. Until the Blackfyre line is untracked, it is impossible to verify claims. This ensured that the only closure would be through acceptance, since the Blackfyre Rebellions always seemed to inevitably return.
Edited by The Shadow Fox, 04 March 2012 - 01:23 AM.
#357
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:38 AM
Arriving late and not trying to hatch up the kevan argument but I do believe he is real and the part with varys and kevan is a reason why buy by no means the strongest indicator in my opinion. I feel bad for the people who think he is fake and have to defend against the argument that is presented from that scene. If I thought he was fake that would not change my mind.
I think that what we are told about varys smuggling baby aegon out of the city is true. I think there came a point prior to the royals actually losing the war that it seemed a strong possibility, if not likely, that the war was lost. This would give varys time to see an opportunity and plot to switch out aegon. I'm sure Elia knew of rhaegars hopes for aegon so she was in on it for her husband and sons sake. There's also a good chance that she did not think she and rhaenys would be butchered but that the heir(rhaegars son) would be. Now of course we cannot trust varys but I think he saw this as a type of very long and meticulous plot with ilyrio, to, when aegon come of age seat him on the throne. I don't think they were banking on ilyrios son growing up to look so much like a targaryen. I saw viserys as either a backup plan or a diversion. And who's to say varys wasn't loyal to the targs. He advised aerys not to open the gates to the lannister army. And he just did his job as master of whisperers. The job is a double edged sword. He drives a wedge between Father and son by doing his job but if he doesn't pass on his knowledge he's bad at his job and maybe aerys hears from someone else and varys loses his head. One part that I perhaps put too much stock in is when Jon connington is remembering rhaegars visit to griffins roost and he says " your fathers lands are beautiful" and when aegon rides up after they take over the castle he says " your fathers lands are beautiful". Simple statement and the lands probably are beautiful but I took as an " apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree" moment. I didn't provide much actual text for my argument but as of now he is presented as aegon and the little subtle clues that are dropped I think are to cause people to think him fake. A conspiracy in a conspiracy....but I can empathize with the frustration the fake aegon believers feel with the whole kevan part.
I think that what we are told about varys smuggling baby aegon out of the city is true. I think there came a point prior to the royals actually losing the war that it seemed a strong possibility, if not likely, that the war was lost. This would give varys time to see an opportunity and plot to switch out aegon. I'm sure Elia knew of rhaegars hopes for aegon so she was in on it for her husband and sons sake. There's also a good chance that she did not think she and rhaenys would be butchered but that the heir(rhaegars son) would be. Now of course we cannot trust varys but I think he saw this as a type of very long and meticulous plot with ilyrio, to, when aegon come of age seat him on the throne. I don't think they were banking on ilyrios son growing up to look so much like a targaryen. I saw viserys as either a backup plan or a diversion. And who's to say varys wasn't loyal to the targs. He advised aerys not to open the gates to the lannister army. And he just did his job as master of whisperers. The job is a double edged sword. He drives a wedge between Father and son by doing his job but if he doesn't pass on his knowledge he's bad at his job and maybe aerys hears from someone else and varys loses his head. One part that I perhaps put too much stock in is when Jon connington is remembering rhaegars visit to griffins roost and he says " your fathers lands are beautiful" and when aegon rides up after they take over the castle he says " your fathers lands are beautiful". Simple statement and the lands probably are beautiful but I took as an " apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree" moment. I didn't provide much actual text for my argument but as of now he is presented as aegon and the little subtle clues that are dropped I think are to cause people to think him fake. A conspiracy in a conspiracy....but I can empathize with the frustration the fake aegon believers feel with the whole kevan part.
#358
Lummel
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 02:07 AM
Screaming Knight, on 04 March 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:
...One part that I perhaps put too much stock in is when Jon connington is remembering rhaegars visit to griffins roost and he says " your fathers lands are beautiful" and when aegon rides up after they take over the castle he says " your fathers lands are beautiful". Simple statement and the lands probably are beautiful but I took as an " apple doesn't fall far fromthe tree" moment...
#359
Buried Treasure
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:23 AM
Apple Martini, on 03 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:
I think this is an important point. I think some posters think that if you believe the latter, you also buy into the former. While I actually do think he's a Blackfyre, I'm perfectly willing to hear other ideas. But he's not Rhaegar's Aegon.
I think Varys and Illyrio are opportunists who saw in the manner of Aegon's death a chance to put in their own pretender.
The Shadow Fox, on 04 March 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:
1) Slaves were bred throughout history. Serra might have been popular for breeding because of her Valyrian-ish hair (it is believed that Valyrian blood brings a stronger immune system). Also, a slave can cover their heritage when it risks their life (Tyrion when he is enslaved) so Serra could have known even if she was born into slavery.
2) The Golden Company is more concerned with reclaiming their lands in Westeros. The Blackfyre cause has been (apparently) abandoned by the Golden Company.
3) Illyrio could have easily lied about Serra's past to protect his plot. Everything else could be true, but we must take everything with a grain of salt.
4) With how slick Varys is, he could have been tracking her for a long time. Love may have been an indirect consequence of their plan.
2) The Golden Company is more concerned with reclaiming their lands in Westeros. The Blackfyre cause has been (apparently) abandoned by the Golden Company.
3) Illyrio could have easily lied about Serra's past to protect his plot. Everything else could be true, but we must take everything with a grain of salt.
4) With how slick Varys is, he could have been tracking her for a long time. Love may have been an indirect consequence of their plan.
1)The theory is that Aegon is a Blackfyre, which means he has to be legitimate (if I+S=A, he is) and that his Blackyre parent had be legitimate. Serra if born in slavery would not have been legitimate. If you are arguing not that Aegon is a Blackyre, but that has Blackfyre blood, they yes Serra could have been born in slavery.
2)Previous posters have argued that the GC is secretly in on an Aegon is a Blackfyre plot. I think the GC was loyal to the Blackfyres up until there were no more Blackfyres, but that the line died out.
3) It’s a complicated lie to be telling when he could have just not mentioned Serra if she needed protection.
4) How is Varys? Surely not old enough to be tracking Serra through years of slavery.
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My point: There may always be a Blackfyre Rebellion since the line faded and became untracked, and anyone (esp with Valyrian features) could rise up to be that Blackfyre to lead the next rebellion. This brings me to my theory that Varys wants to wed a Targaryen and Blackfyre as King and Queen of the Seven Kingdoms so that there may be closure. Until the Blackfyre line is untracked, it is impossible to verify claims. This ensured that the only closure would be through acceptance, since the Blackfyre Rebellions always seemed to inevitably return.
Screaming Knight, on 04 March 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:
Arriving late and not trying to hatch up the kevan argument but I do believe he is real and the part with varys and kevan is a reason why buy by no means the strongest indicator in my opinion. I feel bad for the people who think he is fake and have to defend against the argument that is presented from that scene. If I thought he was fake that would not change my mind.
1- It's Varys speaking. 'Because Varys said so' does not make my top ten most persuasive arguements of all time.
2- Real of fake, the kids name is Aegon. and Varys is bigging Aegon up as a well-educated king, not as blood of the dragon.
#360
Screaming Knight
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Posted 04 March 2012 - 08:58 AM
Lummel, on 04 March 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:
Except it is Rhaeger who says *your father's lands are beautiful", Aegon says "I like your castle".
