468 replies to this topic

[Nymphetamine]

ServantOnIce, on 29 February 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

I have heard folks say that, but where is the proof? I know we like to kick around theories on the board . . but two things that I have read in the books support him being fake are

1. The paper dragon in the House of Undying . .

2. Quaithe of the Shadow telling Dany, "The Mummer's Dragon, trust none of them."

Mummer's are known for their tricks and deception those hint as the vision of "The dead man with  a head of a wolf, he was holding a leg of lamb like a king would hold a sceptre."   Folks had to know in "Clash of Kings" that Robb was as good as dead and he would die at a some sort of celebration.

But I don't see any real proof that he is Illyrio's son, but I could be wrong.  Martin will sort this all out for us in Winter . ..

Of course there is no proof, but there is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence. I'm too lazy to post it all so hopefully someone else will.

All I'll say is that the conversation between Tyrion and Illyrio basically confirms it imo. They talk about his wife Serra, the male Blackfyre line ending, The Golden Company and contracts writ in blood. (I seem to remember a piece being removed from the book by GRRM that also gives more credibility to the theory.)

[Buried Treasure]

Do you really believe the Golden Company knows anything? Most of them do not even know Aegon will be turning up until they are sitting neat Volantis & having to turn down offers of contracts from the Yunkai. The GC seems less informed than Jon Connington.

I don't buy speculation that Serra was a daughter of the Blackfyre as she was a slave Illyrio purchased. Why would a Blackfyre be a slave?

Because the male Blackfyre line ended doesn't mean the female line is still around, it has been 40 years.

[Eejit]

Apple Martini, on 28 February 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

The problem with the switch is that it only really works in hindsight. Namely, Varys had no way to know that Gregor would make Aegon unrecognizable. Aegon was very young but still old enough to have certain distinct features (i.e. we know he had the Targ look). If Varys had made a switch and Gregor hadn't destroyed Aegon's face, the jig would've been up. The idea of a switch being plausible "because Aegon was unrecognizable" works because Aegon was unrecognizable. Meaning, Varys can retcon a baby switch and people can go, "Well yeah, it's possible because no one could've recognized Aegon's face." But at the time, it wasn't a guarantee that Aegon would be unidentifiable pulp.

Given Aegon's age when King's Landing was sacked only his most immediate family and closest maid servants would be familiar enough with the toddler to differentiate between him and any half-decent lookalike, no matter the manner of death. His family died, Varys can easily handle a few servants in that chaos.
Aegon wouldn't exactly have been passed from hand to hand among members of court for them to memorise his chubby little face, particularly given the war.

[Lummel]

John Ball, on 28 February 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

...And why lie to Keven Lannister, a dead man?

"Aegon? Dead. He's dead."
"No. He is here."...

Why would he lie is an interesting question, but first is he telling the truth?

Quote

"He is here.  Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk.  He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education.  He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry.  A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them.  He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need.  He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid.  Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right.  Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Remembering what we see of Aegon in the Tyrion and Connington chapters and how Illyrio remembers him how much of this is true, how much is economical with the truth and how much is untrue?  I'd say all of what he says is totally open to interpretation.  Was the Septa really a septa, was Aegon really hungry in a more than 'how much longer 'till dinnertime' kind of way?  Hunted?  Maybe, as an exercise.  The whole speech is built up of implication.  What does can cook mean?  That he is a salt of the earth, lived the life of the smallfolk, knows life from the ground up and inside out kind of kid, well that's what Kevan is meant to understand but on the other hand even Barristan admitts to being able to cook too, after a fashion, so why not Aegon?  Anyway since when was cooking a key skill to enable you to master the iron throne?

From what we've seen would Aegon make a better king than Tommen?  I think unless you are a big fan of beets, Tommen looks like one of the nicest potential kings you can imagine.

It's debatable as to why Varys lies to Kevan but I don't think he is telling him the plain, unvarnished, truth.

[Eejit]

I don't find any of Varys' statements about Aegon's life thus far particularly unbelievable.

We've only seen a small segment of his life, the final months before he reveals his identity. I don't think it's entirely fair to assume this is an accurate representation of his entire upbringing thus far.

[kg1982]

Quote

From what we've seen would Aegon make a better king than Tommen? I think unless you are a big fan of beets, Tommen looks like one of the nicest potential kings you can imagine.

From what we've seen fake Aegon is sort of a brat, so whatever Illyrio, Varys, Connington, etc. was trying to instill in him didn't take.  

There are lots of clues throughout ADWD that something isn't right with Aegon's identity.  However, the biggest clue to me is that it would be poor storytelling if Aegon was...  It would make no sense to build up both Dany and Jon over the course of five books and then suddenly say that the most important player was a character who didn't even show up until the fifth book and that the two main characters are no longer important.

[Eejit]

If you think that you clearly haven't learned anything about the game of thrones in Westeros

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Lummel, on 29 February 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Why would he lie is an interesting question, but first is he telling the truth?

Remembering what we see of Aegon in the Tyrion and Connington chapters and how Illyrio remembers him how much of this is true, how much is economical with the truth and how much is untrue?  I'd say all of what he says is totally open to interpretation.  Was the Septa really a septa, was Aegon really hungry in a more than 'how much longer 'till dinnertime' kind of way?  Hunted?  Maybe, as an exercise.  The whole speech is built up of implication.  What does can cook mean?  That he is a salt of the earth, lived the life of the smallfolk, knows life from the ground up and inside out kind of kid, well that's what Kevan is meant to understand but on the other hand even Barristan admitts to being able to cook too, after a fashion, so why not Aegon?  Anyway since when was cooking a key skill to enable you to master the iron throne?

From what we've seen would Aegon make a better king than Tommen?  I think unless you are a big fan of beets, Tommen looks like one of the nicest potential kings you can imagine.

It's debatable as to why Varys lies to Kevan but I don't think he is telling him the plain, unvarnished, truth.

I would see no reason for Varys to lie to Kevan at that point. What is gained from lying to a dead man?  All the above things you mentioned make a good king. Including cooking, it demonstrates self sufficency. And him living amongst small folk and living like one of them gives him a greater understanding of their suffering so that as king he may be more inclined to take care of them. Tommen is indeed a sweet boy who may make a good king but he has been kept from learning how to rule whereas Aegon has been learning his entire life.
And as for the folks who say Aegon can't possibly be real because Illyrio and Varys were helping Dany and Viserys think of it like this. Is there better way to take attention away from your true plans than keeping King Roberts eye on the two surviving children of the Mad King?

[the Scorpion Knight]

a Thought reappearing in my mind :
what if illyrio bought serra to pose as mother for the boy?
and to counter the argument that illyrio is to fond of aegon to be real:
val grew fond omonster and she knows what he was

kg1982, on 29 February 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

From what we've seen fake Aegon is sort of a brat, so whatever Illyrio, Varys, Connington, etc. was trying to instill in him didn't take.  

There are lots of clues throughout ADWD that something isn't right with Aegon's identity.  However, the biggest clue to me is that it would be poor storytelling if Aegon was...  It would make no sense to build up both Dany and Jon over the course of five books and then suddenly say that the most important player was a character who didn't even show up until the fifth book and that the two main characters are no longer important.

I think the brattynes is mask (he listen to what tyrion said)
actually we have been forewarned the clues didn't come to us (Maester aemon, the house of the undying, melisandre prophecy that other kings will rise and take their place who will takes robb place)

Edited by the Scorpion Knight, 29 February 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I am not sure "brat" is the word I would have chosen, but Aegon is certainly not the paragon of virtue that Varys describes.  Can anyone imagine Rhaegar or Ned upending a cyvasse board in a fit of temper just because he lost the game, then rudely ordering his opponent to clean up the mess he just made?   Conversely, who does he most act like in his impetuous decisions to do away with all his advisers' and caretakers' carefully laid plans and go off in another direction entirely because he thinks he knows better ...Robert and Jaime come to mind.

Just because Illyrio and Varys did their best to instill all these qualities in Aegon (assuming they even did), does not guarantee all or any of them took.  Humility certainly does not seem to have sunk in much.  Which at least convinces me that Aegon has certainly been raised among people who believe him to be a prince.

[dtones520]

Jon Connington isnt a stupid man. You dont think he would notice that Aegon looks nothing like Rhaegar or Elia? All children have some resemblance of their parents. I think he is aware there are a lot of people who have Valyrian traits. But Aegon has to have some resemblance of Rbaegar or i think Connington would figure it out.

Also, as for the Mummers dragon. It is mentiones in the same line as the suns son. Sun being Prince Doran, son being Quentyn. Varys is a mummer, Aegon is a Dragon. I think it is more likely Quaithe is warning Dany about Varys, not Aegon. Whether Dany interprets it that way is another story.

As for the Golden Company and them breaking their contract, the Golden company is made up of a lot of Westerosi who are wanting to win back their lands. Yes, they have backed a lot of Blackfyres in the past, but that was also when the Targs were still sitting the Throne. Now, their best chance of winning their lands back is by backing a Targaryean, sine the Blackfyre line is pretty much gone. Their best shot of getting back their family lands is backing Aegon or Dany and he time is ripe to do that.

Illyrio and Varys do benefit from Aegon being on the Throne, sobthem backing hin and helping him win back his Throne benefit them no mstter how you slice it.

To me, Martin is making you question Aegon being real for a reason, because you should raise an eyebrow when someone who has been "dead" for 17 years pops up out of the blue, that is what happens. It doesnt mean that he isnt real, just because of a random Prophecy from Quaithe, who somehow doesnt have alterior motives of her own...or maybe she does.

[sarah.jenice]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 28 February 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I will work under that assumption until the story is finished.

If you are interested, a while back I posted a topic that talks about the possibility of Dany's visions at the House of the Undying proving Aegon is real. Let me know what you think.

http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

[ServantOnIce]

Back to my Quaithe statement there is something there that really could mean that Aegon is a fakie . . and that is Quaithe calls everyone by their real status except him

Kraken (Vic Greyjoy)
Black Flame (Moqorro)
Griffin (Connington)
Lion (Tyrion)
Mummer's (Actor's) Dragon  . .

I think Quaithe has said in "DWD" what all you are hinting, that this Aegon is a fake and is a Blackfyre, that would make sense why the GC who was formed of companies and vagabounds after the failed attempts to seize the throne .  .   the throne is what Varys and Illyrio want, more than that they want a "Glorious Restoration" like what occurred in 1660 in England.

[FourthofHerName]

My first inclination was to be angry with GRRM for introducing this totally new character after I'd invested so much time in Jon's and Dany's stories.  So I thought Aegon has to be fake - it would just be bad storytelling to have him be real.  But lately, it has occurred to me that it's okay for Aegon to be real.  The question of who is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne is a completely different question than who fulfills the prophecy about AA reborn.  Not to place undue reliance on the House of the Undying, but when Dany sees her vision of Rhaegar, he has Aegon (and we know that's really what the vision is) and still says that there has to be a third, indicating that (1) even if he's real, Aegon doesn't fulfill the prophecy; and (2) at the time of Aegon's birth, if there is going to be literal fulfillment of the prophecy, that person had not yet been born.  Neither Jon nor Dany had been born then, so they could still be AA, but just not be candidates for ruling Westeros.

To me, the battle for the Iron Throne seems, thus far, to have happened independently from what's going on with the Others, etc. north of the Wall.  So I think it makes sense to accept that Aegon could be real, and could be the rightful heir to the throne, but simultaneously believe that someone else will lead the battle against the Others.  I do suspect that it will become important for whoever is on the Iron Throne to believe in the real threat and stop scheming for power.  Maybe a legitimate Targeryan is the only person who can be that unifying force.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

sarah.jenice, on 29 February 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

If you are interested, a while back I posted a topic that talks about the possibility of Dany's visions at the House of the Undying proving Aegon is real. Let me know what you think.

http://asoiaf.wester...__fromsearch__1

That is quite a theory and does reinforce my belief that Aegon is real. You were able to articulate it way better than I could.

[JayDubya]

If he's real, and George can make it seem not contrived and/or pointless, it will be a miracle.    Since I don't really believe in miracles, I would rather assume that Young Griff is a fake for now, and reserve judgement until I read the four remaining books.  (Yes, I think this will take 9 books to complete, since he's still adding major new plot twists)

[sarah.jenice]

ServantOnIce, on 29 February 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

I have heard folks say that, but where is the proof? I know we like to kick around theories on the board . . but two things that I have read in the books support him being fake are

1. The paper dragon in the House of Undying . .

2. Quaithe of the Shadow telling Dany, "The Mummer's Dragon, trust none of them."

Mummer's are known for their tricks and deception those hint as the vision of "The dead man with  a head of a wolf, he was holding a leg of lamb like a king would hold a sceptre."   Folks had to know in "Clash of Kings" that Robb was as good as dead and he would die at a some sort of celebration.

But I don't see any real proof that he is Illyrio's son, but I could be wrong.  Martin will sort this all out for us in Winter . ..

As I said earlier, I want to believe Aegon is real, but whether he is Illyrio's son or not, I think he stayed in Illyrio's home for 4-5 years of his life (until given to Connington). The clothes Tyrion wears in Illyrio's home belonged to a young boy, and I think that young boy was Aegon (real or fake). Why would Illyrio keep the clothes all these years unless the meant a lot to him? He could have just grown fond of Aegon after raising him from infancy, but you don't usually keep all of a little kid's clothes. I think this was meant to be a clue that Tyrion wears a young boys clothing. Illyrio had enough money to buy him clothes, but maybe that would have been suspicious.

On a side note, what age child do you guys think Tyrion would be equal to? He often comments the clothes are tight and musty, but I wonder what age kid's clothes would fit a dwarf. Five? Six? How does Tyrion measure in size to Tommen? I can't remember.

[sarah.jenice]

Arch-MaesterPhilip, on 29 February 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

That is quite a theory and does reinforce my belief that Aegon is real. You were able to articulate it way better than I could.

Thank you! That was my first and one of my only topics I've posted. I'm rereading Clash for the third time now to get ready for Season Two of the show, and it's amazing how much stands out that you can only understand once you've read all of the books.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

sarah.jenice, on 29 February 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Thank you! That was my first and one of my only topics I've posted. I'm rereading Clash for the third time now to get ready for Season Two of the show, and it's amazing how much stands out that you can only understand once you've read all of the books.

I totally agree with that. I'm reading Clash for the second time and the Red Wedding jumped out at me.My father used to tell me that about the Lord of the Rings. I've picked up so many things that I missed the first time through. I can't wait for season 2.

[Nymphetamine]

Buried Treasure, on 29 February 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Do you really believe the Golden Company knows anything? Most of them do not even know Aegon will be turning up until they are sitting neat Volantis & having to turn down offers of contracts from the Yunkai. The GC seems less informed than Jon Connington.

I don't buy speculation that Serra was a daughter of the Blackfyre as she was a slave Illyrio purchased. Why would a Blackfyre be a slave?

Because the male Blackfyre line ended doesn't mean the female line is still around, it has been 40 years.

Dany was threatened with being sold into slavery, and she is a Targaryen. Not a long thought to be dead house with no known support. Not hard for me to believe considering Essos is a rough place.