85 replies to this topic

[Fabrice Robin]

The Shadow Fox, on 09 March 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

But he had no reason to think it was paramount. The discussion of his heir could have waited until after the wedding. He had no reason to suspect that he would encounter any danger traveling through his territory, the Riverlands to the Twins, with an army. Cat even discussed the Guest Rights, and that only helped strengthen Robb's feeling of security. It was unexpected by everyone, but Cat had a suspicion which I find so ironic considering she is labeled by fans as the biggest idiot of the series.

Yeah, she did many mistakes, the worst beeing releasing Jaime Lannister, even if he seems to improve himself after his trip with the wench of Tarth.

I really expect he made the necessary for Jon being his heir. Well, he has divided his army before the wedding (the Mormont Lady went another way) if I recall right, so maybe there is still hope that his will remains in someone's memory

[nachoproblem]

The Shadow Fox, on 09 March 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

But he had no reason to think it was paramount. The discussion of his heir could have waited until after the wedding. He had no reason to suspect that he would encounter any danger traveling through his territory, the Riverlands to the Twins, with an army. Cat even discussed the Guest Rights, and that only helped strengthen Robb's feeling of security. It was unexpected by everyone, but Cat had a suspicion which I find so ironic considering she is labeled by fans as the biggest idiot of the series.

It was pretty clear that Cat and Robb both expected some treachery from Walder Frey before they left Riverrun, Guest Rights notwithstanding. They relaxed after the introductions at the Twins went so smoothly, as they were meant to do. But before he set out, if you read between the lines, Robb had a mind to set his affairs in order. He even said that he was going to declare his succession right away, even though he walked off and Catelyn didn't witness whatever happened after that. And whenever GRRM doesn't tell us that something happened, it did and it's important. So not having read far enough to know any better, I am positive that Robb declared his heir and dispatched the messages. (I'm not positive it's Jon though, because that would be just the place for another trick. What if he went out on a limb and assumed that Arya was still alive? Or what if he had intelligence on her that he didn't share with Catelyn?)

[nachoproblem]

I like the name of this thread, because it's exactly what I said when I read the Red Wedding and the chapter immediately after.

GRRM is really good at developing characters and getting people to care about them. But after enduring three volumes of the clunky ultra-suspended cliffhanger pace just to find out if the suviving members of House Stark would ever be reunited, for THIS... like somebody else here said, I am still reading, but not at the same determined pace as before. What I would really like to do is find out where GRRM lives, go to his house, PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE, and then go back to reading. (Please, I kid.)

(PS, I reiterate, don't take this the wrong way. I'm just griping for the frustration of all the tension built up, and then the shock of this "payoff.")

Edited by nachoproblem, 11 March 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[nachoproblem]

The Medievalist, on 29 February 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I do like the idea of Robb's story.  Very Alexander the Greatish.  A young Prodigy cut down in his youth never suffering true defeat.  The way Robb died pissed me off at first... but then when I started thinking of it as "It was the only way they could get to him, to attack him some place other than on the battlefield" it helps show just how great a strategist and commander he was at such a young age... it also shows what great parents he had.

That is true, although it's also what made me really angry, that a shining star like Robb could be killed, so easily even, by a wretched old pissant like Walder Frey. I almost wanted to accuse the author of cheating, I was so mad. But it's really the other way around, of course. This is reality.

I was actually surprised that Walder would go so far. Regardless of Guest Right I was pretty sure he would be up to something, kidnapping maybe, but I didn't think he would go so far as to kill everyone. Although, in this situation I suppose that's the only thing he could do and get away with it. It's still a bit hard to swallow. Granted, he probably doesn't care that his House will be cursed for generations by this, because he doesn't expect to live long anyway and he's such a miserably selfish old muck-dweller. But in retrospect I'm a little surprised that his sons and minions went through with it, knowing the consequences would fall to them. They all hated him anyway, and it would be as easy as a pillow in the night for him to pass "naturally." Compared to that, how would it be worth paying the price of his outrageous petty revenge? On the other hand, the support of House Lannister... feh. Scumbags.

I guess I can see where all this is going. Now we won't mind so much when Danaerys shows up with all her dragons and killer eunuchs and whatnot, and kills EVERYBODY.

[nachoproblem]

Aroban, on 28 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Robb, Catelyn, and Arya all died within three chapters? This just pissed me off more than I could've imagined.

Two chapters, actually but as for Arya... (not spoilers, I'm about where you are)

When [the Hound's] axe "took her in the head," I figure there has to be a reason it was phrased like that. An axe has flat bits too. Robb and Cat are Dead-dead, because specifically one was stabbed in the heart and the other's throat cut. But when GRRM doesn't tell us something, there's a reason. We were tricked before about Bran and Rickon, and furthermore I can only believe the Hound would have knocked her out. He would have nothing to gain from killing her in that situation, and it doesn't seem like he ever wastes energy to hurt anybody, unless he's berserk. He never cared enough to be that angry at Arya. However, he he could well have a reason to knock her out and drag her off to whatever his new plan is. So I'm going to assume Arya is alive until I find out otherwise. (And I also assume it'll be another hundred pages until then. "Meanwhile, in the other book, Danaerys has dragons!" *sigh*)

[Fabrice Robin]

Yeah it seems it will happen this way, We all can read that Danaerys is strengthening herself before coming back to westeros and I bet a part of the rest of the story will lay more in the free cities. Wait and see.

But I just care for the Starks and am looking forward to see them reunited.

[Tw1ster]

nachoproblem, on 10 March 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Two chapters, actually but as for Arya... (not spoilers, I'm about where you are)

When [the Hound's] axe "took her in the head," I figure there has to be a reason it was phrased like that. An axe has flat bits too. Robb and Cat are Dead-dead, because specifically one was stabbed in the heart and the other's throat cut. But when GRRM doesn't tell us something, there's a reason. We were tricked before about Bran and Rickon, and furthermore I can only believe the Hound would have knocked her out. He would have nothing to gain from killing her in that situation, and it doesn't seem like he ever wastes energy to hurt anybody, unless he's berserk. He never cared enough to be that angry at Arya. However, he he could well have a reason to knock her out and drag her off to whatever his new plan is. So I'm going to assume Arya is alive until I find out otherwise. (And I also assume it'll be another hundred pages until then. "Meanwhile, in the other book, Danaerys has dragons!" *sigh*)

I'm quite enjoying the Dany chapters especially the latest twist I've read. Not a huge one, but surprising nonetheless

[Justice for Elia]

Aroban, on 28 February 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Spoilers, so please don't read on if you haven't gotten past half the book yet or to the Edmure Roslin wedding, to be specific.

Robb, Catelyn, and Arya all died within three chapters? This just pissed me off more than I could've imagined.

Not to spoil anything, but the Red Wedding has the potential to be a short-term gain but at a long-term expense.

And it is not as bad as you fear.

[The Roaring Bear]

Justice for Elia, on 10 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Not to spoil anything, but the Red Wedding has the potential to be a short-term gain but at a long-term expense.

And it is not as bad as you fear.

I disagree, I believe that it is as bad.

[LadyJSnow]

The Medievalist, on 10 March 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

I disagree, I believe that it is as bad.

I concur with your disagreement.

[7V3N]

LadyJSnow, on 10 March 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I concur with your disagreement.

I think he means it is not as bad as it initially seems.

Spoiler

Arya is still alive

[Justice for Elia]

The Shadow Fox, on 10 March 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I think he means it is not as bad as it initially seems.

Spoiler

Arya is still alive

Yes, thank you. Trying to be subtle!

[The Roaring Bear]

The Shadow Fox, on 10 March 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I think he means it is not as bad as it initially seems.

Spoiler

Arya is still alive

Spoiler

True.  I forgot that he thought Arya was dead.  I was referencing the fact that everyone told me it got better and things weren't so bad (but then I never for a second thought that Arya was dead) so it never did get better, and those people who said it got better just ended up being liars.  The events that follow are good, and enjoyable, worth reading et cetera, but not as good as before the above mentioned chapters.

Edited by The Medievalist, 10 March 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[7V3N]

The Medievalist, on 10 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Spoiler

True.  I forgot that he thought Arya was dead.  I was referencing the fact that everyone told me it got better and things weren't so bad (but then I never for a second thought that Arya was dead) so it never did get better, and those people who said it got better just ended up being liars.  The events that follow are good, and enjoyable, worth reading et cetera, but not as good as before the above mentioned chapters.

ADWD:

Spoiler

The Frey pies at least put a smile on my face.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

LadyJSnow, on 29 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Robb's death made me so angry. I felt like he shouldn't have gone done like that. It was brilliant because I didn't see it coming, but I liked Robb. I thought for Catelyn, though, that it was the best death she could have had. Instead of complaining about the role she was playing in everything, she showed her true strength as a mother.

Dude, it's so true.  Women are actually likable once they die. Nothing so proper as a mother sacrificing herself, as all mothers should.  You let them go too long and soon they'll start having their own emotions ...

Edited by Xerox in 4 Parts, 11 March 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[nachoproblem]

Tw1ster, on 10 March 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I'm quite enjoying the Dany chapters especially the latest twist I've read. Not a huge one, but surprising nonetheless

Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy the Dany chapters too, especially lately. It's just comically annoying how they come up when I really want to know about something esle.

[The Roaring Bear]

nachoproblem, on 11 March 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy the Dany chapters too, especially lately. It's just comically annoying how they come up when I really want to know about something esle.

This.
Even though I enjoy Dany and what she is up to, her chapters are always right after something cool is going on in Westeros and when I turn the page and see her name I just go "Damnit..." then count how many pages she has in her chapter to decide if I want to get to reading it right then or not (but again, I do always end up enjoying them once I do, but theyre not something that I look forward to).

[Tw1ster]

nachoproblem, on 11 March 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoy the Dany chapters too, especially lately. It's just comically annoying how they come up when I really want to know about something esle.

I completely agree with that then. I feel the same way

[Xtopher]

it always makes me smile when i turn the page and it says "DAENERYS".
nothing much else to say.

[SummerGhostofNymeria]

That makes me sad seeing as I may be the only person who has read the books and finished ASOS and couldn't STAND Daenerys. I feel like she's completely lost sight of her initial goal, and has gotten too caught up in "saving" everyone and everything.

When I finished ASOS I felt like I could lay a rabbit with a broken leg in front of her with armor, and a sign that says "I used to be a warrior, but that guy over there trapped me for days without food and is trying to capture me again and use me for food" and she would take it and claim it as one of her "people."

Sorry, the frustrations of Dany came out. I really did used to love her and her chapters, but eh... the love went away. I'm hoping she redeems herself. I'm halfway through AFFC, so she has ADWD to redeem herself and get her crap together before I go postal.