127 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

So when Dany kills it wrong but when Ned or Robb or Jon kills its honorable right?
Ned killed a dude who ran away from zombies and winter
Robb killed his cuz because Karstark wanted revenge for the death of his kids
Jon killed because some dude didn't want to follow his instructions.
How was Dany's so much worse?

1. Ned, Robb and Jon each did their own executions. Dany has yet to actually kill anyone by her own hand. What is it that Ned says ... If you can't kill a guy yourself, maybe he doesn't deserve to die.

2. There was no question that the men Robb, Jon and Ned executed were guilty of what they were accused of. There is, I think, at least some reason to doubt that all 163 people whom Dany ordered crucified were guilty, if only because Dany herself never attempts to ascertain individual guilt or even individual identity.

3. Ned, Robb and Jon do not engage in torture.

4. Ned, Robb and Jon gave their guys a quick death. Jon even told Slynt how to arrange his head to make it go easier. That's a far cry from a crucifixion, which is, as I understand it, one of the worst possible ways to die. Were children subjected to crucifixion? Yes. Is Dany morally superior for stooping to the slavers' level and giving them that same punishment — crucifying to prove that crucifying is wrong? I don't believe so, no.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Gala, on 29 February 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

Somebody argues what is good and what is wrong? I didn't see that. As for me the difference is in extent (or scale?) of killing. Plus all of those you bring to the subject did killing with their own hands (they looked in the eyes of those they were going to kill) not only to fulfill their orders/duty, but to take responsibility for this killing, which is also quite different with killing thousands or distorting the city…but that's just me, I mean my point of view. no offense intended.

none taken!

Lady Olenna, on 29 February 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

What do you think will happen if her dragon children decide to go on a BBQing expedition?
This is what I always wonder about her situation. She has to figure out how to get them under her control if she really wants to conquer anything. Without them I don't think she will get too far.
But she seems pretty bonded to Drogon so maybe she will figure out how to do it.

yea i wonder that all the time. I tell myself that the kid wasn't burnt by the dragon and he was killed by the Sons of the Harpy(to help me sleep). But even if thats true... The dragons faced extinction for a reason 300 years ago... but they were also reborn for a reason to

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Apple Martini, on 29 February 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

1. Ned, Robb and Jon each did their own executions. Dany has yet to actually kill anyone by her own hand. What is it that Ned says ... If you can't kill a guy yourself, maybe he doesn't deserve to die.

2. There was no question that the men Robb, Jon and Ned executed were guilty of what they were accused of. There is, I think, at least some reason to doubt that all 163 people whom Dany ordered crucified were guilty, if only because Dany herself never attempts to ascertain individual guilt or even individual identity.

3. Ned, Robb and Jon do not engage in torture.

4. Ned, Robb and Jon gave their guys a quick death. Jon even told Slynt how to arrange his head to make it go easier. That's a far cry from a crucifixion, which is, as I understand it, one of the worst possible ways to die. Were children subjected to crucifixion? Yes. Is Dany morally superior for stooping to the slavers' level and giving them that same punishment — crucifying to prove that crucifying is wrong? I don't believe so, no.

1. So just because they take the blame for it makes them blameless? And she killed Drogo and that witch
2.idk i think those sons of bitches were guilty of crucifying kids, and Janos Slynt died because...
3. No... they didn't, but Karstarks were treated like shit, but i guess they deserved it
4.your right, that ordeal was... complicated

[tze]

The problem is that Westeros is filled to the brim, not only with challenges Dany's never had to deal with (winter, competent military commanders, etc.), but also with challenges and realities that I don't think she's ever contemplated. Religion is the most obvious: the religion of Slaver's Bay appears to be female-centric (are there even any male priests?), and Dany seems to very much see religious figures as sources of wisdom and counsel, but always subordinate to the Queen. The High Septon is going to make her life a living hell. The Faith is heavily misogynistic at the best of times, and now the HS believes he has the authority to imprison, judge, and punish a Queen of Westeros for moral "crimes". And I don't think Dany has any idea of how misogynistic the Faith truly is (she thought the story of Baelor imprisoning his three sisters wasn't true), or understands the kind of power the Faith wields in the South, especially vis a vis a Queen.

(Not to mention, this is someone who named, as one of the three rulers of Astapor, a "priest". Given that this person was a priest, not a priestess, and the religion of the Graces doesn't appear to have male priests, not to mention this person's status as a slave . . . Dany seemingly named a person from a non-Astapori religion as one of Astapor's leaders. You simply don't do that if you truly understand the impact and power of religion on a population.)

The reason the Targs had to disband the Faith Militant---which took generations---was because the FM opposed Targ incest and opposed having people born of incest sitting on the throne. Cersei's kids are being cursed as "abominations born of incest." They're not just called bastards, they're called abominations. Aegon can get a pass here because his parents weren't related, but Dany? People are going to throw that exact same curse at her, and I think she's going to be completely unprepared for it.

[Apple Martini]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

1. So just because they take the blame for it makes them blameless? And she killed Drogo and that witch

I didn't say it made them blameless, just that they took full, personal, hands-on responsibility for what they did.

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2.idk i think those sons of bitches were guilty of crucifying kids, and Janos Slynt died because...

And you know this how? Dany asked for 163 people and got them. She doesn't know who specifically murdered the children. She doesn't even know that she got actual nobles. She later MARRIES a nobleman from the same caste from which she drew crucifixion victims. Maybe Hizdahr nailed a few children up himself, who's to say.

Janos Slynt died because insubordination is punishable by death. It's not unusual at all in a military setting, even in our own history. It's also a crime that everyone is aware of (I'm sure Slynt was willing to execute someone in the City Watch who wouldn't take orders), unlike the slavers in Astapor who were no doubt surprised that slaving should be punishable by death.  

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3. No... they didn't, but Karstarks were treated like shit, but i guess they deserved it

No, they didn't practice torture. Not once, let alone multiple times and for no actual reason other than frustration and spite.

[Nev yn]

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Dany asked for 163 people and got them. She doesn't know who specifically murdered the children. She doesn't even know that she got actual nobles.

This just can't be emphasized enough.  These are people who crucified 163 kids.  Dany tells them "I want another 163 people crucified, otherwise we will not have peace".  Do you really think they crucified people from their own ranks?

[jarl the climber]

Lady Olenna, on 29 February 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

What do you think will happen if her dragon children decide to go on a BBQing expedition?
This is what I always wonder about her situation. She has to figure out how to get them under her control if she really wants to conquer anything. Without them I don't think she will get too far.
But she seems pretty bonded to Drogon so maybe she will figure out how to do it.

She does seem to have a special bond with Drogon, whether she controls the dragon or the dragon controls her is a different matter but as far as we know nobody has ever ridden more than one dragon so I don't think that she will have the same relationship with the other two dragons, it kind of seems up in the air with them. Its seems in the realm of possibility that one of these dragons could wander or off or be stolen from her and get to Westeros before her. We have all ready seen the destruction they caused in Mereen because of Danys neglegence, Barristan beleived that Rhaegal and Viserion might have burned down the entire city if it wasn't for some fortunate rainstorms. If the same thing should happen in Westeros it could very well poison the water for her.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Apple Martini, on 29 February 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

I didn't say it made them blameless, just that they took full, personal, hands-on responsibility for what they did.



And you know this how? Dany asked for 163 people and got them. She doesn't know who specifically murdered the children. She doesn't even know that she got actual nobles. She later MARRIES a nobleman from the same caste from which she drew crucifixion victims. Maybe Hizdahr nailed a few children up himself, who's to say.

Janos Slynt died because insubordination is punishable by death. It's not unusual at all in a military setting, even in our own history. It's also a crime that everyone is aware of (I'm sure Slynt was willing to execute someone in the City Watch who wouldn't take orders), unlike the slavers in Astapor who were no doubt surprised that slaving should be punishable by death.  



No, they didn't practice torture. Not once, let alone multiple times and for no actual reason other than frustration and spite.

*sigh*oh Sweetling, i dont wanna talk about Hizdahr. lol. No, your right thou. She is a complex character, she means well but at the end of the day she is a 15 year old girl who is learning how to rule. What did she say in ASOS? "The Dragons have to learn how to fly..." But calling her evil, or saying that trying to change the wrongness of Essos is flawed is just incorrect.

Yo Tze! good post i agree mostly. I dont think it was about the incest thou (if it is then our sweet cersei is fucked) i think it was that the faith wanted to play AGOT. But because she is prob Azor-Ahai she will def have to fight the faith... hmmm maybe thats why she will team up with the Starks?

Edited by Ndrew of Typhgarian, 29 February 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

To all the reasonabe people that have been posting here and making perfectly valid arguments.

"Don't argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

[jarl the climber]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

*sigh*oh Sweetling, i dont wanna talk about Hizdahr. lol. No, your right thou. She is a complex character, she means well but at the end of the day she is a 15 year old girl who is learning how to rule. What did she say in ASOS? "The Dragons have to learn how to fly..." But calling her evil, or saying that trying to change the wrongness of Essos is flawed is just incorrect.

Yo Tze! good post i agree mostly. I dont think it was about the incest thou (if it is then our sweet cersei is fucked) i think it was that the faith wanted to play AGOT. But because she is prob Azor-Ahai she will def have to fight the faith... hmmm maybe thats why she will team up with the Starks?

I'm under the impression that the HS does know that Tommen is Jamies son but for political reasons he doesn't want to expose this at this time. Danys heritage will count against her with the faith, Aegons supposed parents were not closely related and the HS isn't afraid to play loose with the facts, so in the long run I think he will lean towards Aegon. Where the Starks fit into this I can't say, I actually beleive that if R+L=J is true and if it comes out and is proven definitively that the HS would probaly support him, I think that the suffering that all the Stark children have gone through will make them appealing to him as rulers, the Stark children were brought up worshiping the old and the new gods. I don't think that the Starks and the Faith are natural enemies the way some people do the HS could very well end up being an ally to them, and they could both end up being hostile towards Dany.

[Ice Turtle]

No way HS is going to support Jon Snow, worshiper of the old gods, warg, friend of giants and wildlings and supporter of Stannis. I think that whole North may have problem with faith gaining control, it's one of the main reasons why I think that 7 kingdoms can't be reunited, at least till someone burn whole KL to the ground.  

Dany may well be able to rule Westeros, but it depends on Tyrion being her hand. And even then she is going to be tyrant because really look at her PR and people surrounding her:

+
Barrastian Selmy

-
Tyrion the kingslayr, kinslayer, Lannister and dwarf  
Jorah Mormont - accusted of slavery
dothraky
and army of eunuchs
possible ironborn husband in the future

[jarl the climber]

lazy turtle, on 29 February 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

No way HS is going to support Jon Snow, worshiper of the old gods, warg, friend of giants and wildlings and supporter of Stannis. I think that whole North may have problem with faith gaining control, it's one of the main reasons why I think that 7 kingdoms can't be reunited, at least till someone burn whole KL to the ground.  

Dany may well be able to rule Westeros, but it depends on Tyrion being her hand. And even then she is going to be tyrant because really look at her PR and people surrounding her:

+
Barrastian Selmy

-
Tyrion the kingslayr, kinslayer, Lannister and dwarf  
Jorah Mormont - accusted of slavery
dothraky
and army of eunuchs
possible ironborn husband in the future

Don't forget the red preist Moquorro and Maester Marwyn dabbles in magic and Danys enemies might try to pin King Roberts death on Ser Barristan so even he might not be a plus. Its hard to say what happens once the situation at the wall with the others becomes widely known and beleived.

[JKeats]

The writing has been on the wall for some time now.  Dany will be instrumental viz-a-viz the Others.  Azor Ahai, prophecy, blah blah blah

Fine.  It sucks, but fine.

That doesn't mean she gets to be queen though.  Let's hope GRRM gives some heroic death so we can be spared Queen Daenerys.  

[just an Other]

Despite being a fuck up in Slaver's bay, I think she would do good in a stable environment. She takes council, keeps distance and balance and generally has good intentions.

The problem is that Westeros is not a stable environment at the moment. She's going to meet with heavy resistance by wanting to take all power into her hands while leaving nothing to the high lords. And all she knows about Westeros is what Visreys told her.

[winterdirewolf]

I think that if Dany started thinking a little less about some situations it would do a world of good for her.  The girl thinks to much and never takes enough action.  It's like she doesn't follow through. Remember when that one Frey (I forgot his name sorry) kept threating to hang that one Tully every day but never did it?  That's what I feel like Dany will be like.

She needs to start making decisive action and not rely on everyone's opinion of her. That's what will help her hold the Iron Throne. Maybe I'm misinterepting it but that's what I think of her.  By the way I love Dany.  She is my favorite character.  If she would grow up a little and stop being so...well dumb... she would be even more awesome.

Edited by winterdirewolf, 29 February 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Dark Rider]

Dany just wants to go home. It's not so much that she wants the Iron Throne or to rule Westeros, but that she understands that in the Game of Thrones either you win or you die. If she doesn't place a Targ back on the throne then she'll forever be in danger and I think she's just reached the point where she's sick of being weak and being in danger. In A Dance With Dargons she definitely gets too comfortable where she is at, because the security of the throne there is more than she's ever known, which is sad considering how little security there really is for her.  I think by the end of the book though she realizes that it's not going to be a safe place for her to put down roots and that she has to continue going for Westeros, which is the only home she can have.

[Gala]

Dark Rider, on 29 February 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Dany just wants to go home. It's not so much that she wants the Iron Throne or to rule Westeros, but that she understands that in the Game of Thrones either you win or you die. If she doesn't place a Targ back on the throne then she'll forever be in danger and I think she's just reached the point where she's sick of being weak and being in danger. In A Dance With Dargons she definitely gets too comfortable where she is at, because the security of the throne there is more than she's ever known, which is sad considering how little security there really is for her.  I think by the end of the book though she realizes that it's not going to be a safe place for her to put down roots and that she has to continue going for Westeros, which is the only home she can have.

I agree. The problem is Westeros is not her home and never was, I presume never will be.

Let's look from another perspective: Dany is young queen, who was raised in another civilization with her brother's whispers and stories about 'home', which Westeros has never been for her, she was almost in slavery of her brother, later he even sells her to the savage king to get an army, then she became a khalesi and understands how to deal with dothraki, then she 'gives birth' to dragons and her all "dragon blood" thing became very true for her and she thinks nothing can harm her (fire, diseases etc) because of her blood, then she tries to free people (honorable and definitely good intention, and understandable as well),not mentioning that slavery was her sensitive issue all the time she became a queen at Mereen, but brought nothing but fire and blood to the cities she visits, then she learn a little bit how to play the game, but stays ignorant to Westerosi rules, traditions, truth about events and so on. I think that Dany is very brave, sensitive and generally good person (and character), who came a long way and suffered a lot too, but she deals with all her problems  like she deals with her dothraki and rules this way too.

I must admit Westeros is not heaven and Westerosi people are not angels and saints, but dealing with them like she would deal with dothraki or slavers is not an option. She is a queen of another culture not westerosi culture. The only way she can establish her power and her "foreign views" is fire and blood, which is once again is not an option, because of the state of 7 Kingdoms are in. Plus she had never seen a Winter before and never dealt with it. And as I understand it is a big deal and problem in Westeros. She would probably fight the fanatic faith in Westeros (which is good, because fanatism is nothing good and the 7the faith won't help with the Others, like, I believe, the Old Gods will), but she won't be a good queen for Westeros (unless she learns about Westeros, her own family history more closely etc and would be able to rule it without rivers of blood and dragon flames).

It's actually kind of sad: trying to reach home, and in the end realize that  the place you desired is not your home and is not your place; Dany is lost, and I think the dothraki sea with Drogo was her real home.

I confess I haven't liked Dany since 3rd book and I don't her be the only one savior of the world, it seems just unfair, but I want her to find peace in the end, I don't know why, probably I sympathy her, when she in convinced that she is goddess.

Edited by Gala, 01 March 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[The Drunkard]

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 29 February 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

*sigh*oh Sweetling, i dont wanna talk about Hizdahr. lol. No, your right thou. She is a complex character, she means well but at the end of the day she is a 15 year old girl who is learning how to rule. What did she say in ASOS? "The Dragons have to learn how to fly..." But calling her evil, or saying that trying to change the wrongness of Essos is flawed is just incorrect.

No, calling Dany evil is one of the most justifiable things in the series. She might mean well, but that doesn't take away from the evils she has comitted.

[boojam]

If the Others are defeated will Winter go away?
If not who would want to rule a place that looks like Antarctica?
If the Others are defeated and Winter goes away, Westeros will be trashed by all the chaos of war, who would want to rule that?
It think if Dany does return to Westeros as a ruler she should establish a parliamentary democracy and try to leverage George's alternate universe Earth out of the dark ages.

[CC-Kingmaker]

boojam, that is wishful thinking. But dany better learn, However besides winter, i dont think the HS will be the biggest issue. Westeros is exhausted. A war is gone but leads to another, the ironborn, aegon and still stannis are threatening everything. Plus, people will be hunting dany from across the narrow sea for the pleasure of the green grace, xaro and others. Dany will bring more issues, plus the pale mare