401 replies to this topic

[brashcandy]

Lykos, on 26 March 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

brashcandy congrats to 4000 th post.
That makes it most likely that Roose will play Ramsay against Jon.  Then turning against Ramsay, his only heir, to gain the support of the North.  If that´s not enough he planed to present Rickon (but Davos has smuggled Rickon away in the meantime) to ensure the North´s loyalty.

Thank you, Lykos! I like your theory that Roose may have been planning on handing over Rickon. It makes sense given what Lady Dustin says about it all being a game for him, and especially if Roose is counting on an alliance with the Others, and not with the North.

[Bran Vras]

I tend to agree with Brashcandy that the friendship of Roose and Barbrey Dustin is genuine. She makes pronouncements in front of the northern lords which entirely for Roose's benefit (when she put the blames on the Freys for the Red Wedding, for instance).

Since we are discussing the situation in Winterfell, I have outlined four or five conjectures about what Roose intends to do (these are only a descriptions of intentions, not predictions). From the banal to the horrorful.

Plan 1 (complete political victory): Roose intends to defeat Stannis, thus cementing his political domination. Ramsay will be undisputed as lord of Winterfell. The north will be forced to support Lord Bolton. Depending on the situation in King's Landing, Roose will crown himself King of Winter. Optional: get rid of the Freys and wed Lady Dustin.

Plan 2 (political victory, with a well calculated compromise): Same as above, with the deliberate sacrifice of Ramsay and the Freys to appease the northern lordsa. There is the option of reinstalling a Stark in Winterfell, well under control, and, in any case, as a lord of a fallen house. Roose will promise a return to the "old ways of the North" (first night, no maester, Manderly go home to the Mander etc) to get the support of the Umbers, the Glovers, the Flints etc. Lady Dustin, with the Ryswell, will be useful to praise Roose as the rightful defender of the ancient traditions.

Plan 3 (disinterest for politics, concern only for survival in the Long Night): Roose knows that he can't hold the North: the power of the great lords is too entrenched as is their support of House Stark. However, Roose knows that a long Winter is coming, and that the Game of Throne does not matter much. The cold winds are rising. The Wall might fall. Cold and dead things will hunt warm blooded creatures everywhere. Roose knows how to survive by being leeched, by giving to the woods the sons born of his fertile wife and perhaps by using something to be found in the crypts of Winterfell. Ramsay is too stupid to matter in all this. Lady Dustin might matter though.

Plan 4 (manipulation by the tall willowy woman): Roose is still unknowingly under the spell of Ramsay's mother, who plans to have her son made King of Winter. Roose will regret Domeric more and more, and hate Ramsay more and more. Nevertheless, he will give his bastard more and more power until Ramsay finally prevails. With Craster, we saw what kind of autocracy can come out of such black blood.

Plan 5: combination of 3 and 4, with Ramsay's mother an agent of the cold and dead things.

Wild card: a relationship with Mance.

Edited by Bran Vras, 26 March 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[brashcandy]

I'm definitely leaning towards Plan 3 (with a bit of 4) On the friendship between Roose and Lady Dustin, I think he has promised her a return to those old ways that she might desire - no maesters, no involvement in Southron schemes, etc etc. She had terrible experiences all around, first with the maester who influenced Lord Rickard, and then when her husband went to support Ned in Robert's Rebellion.

Edited by brashcandy, 26 March 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Frey Pie]

Id say plan three.Roose is in a bad spot at the moment going up against Stannis.If he does have an ace up his sleeve he will be forced to use it early in TWOW.Unless all he plans is survival until the Others come

[brashcandy]

A few more curious notes on Lady Dustin:

1. Similarity to Ramsay:

He told me that my lord had died an

honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest

beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his

sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests …

but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest

beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

Theon did not understand. “His … his bones … ?”

Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile, a smile that

reminded him of Ramsay’s. “Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord

Eddard’s bones north before the Red Wedding, but your

iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have

been watching ever since. Should those bones ever

emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than

Barrowton.” She threw one last lingering look at the

likeness of Eddard Stark. “We are done here.”

2. Clearly enjoys her status and power despite her plain dress:

“You,” said Theon. “There is you. The Lady of Barrowton,

a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth.”

That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes

sparkling, and said, “The widow of Barrowton … and yes, if I

so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose

sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.”

3. Seeming unconcern for the threat of Stannis and his army:


“Lord Stannis is lost in the storm,” said Lady Dustin. “He’s

leagues away, dead or dying. Let winter do its worst. A few

more days and the snows will bury him and his army both.”

And us as well, thought Theon, marveling at her folly. Lady

Barbrey was of the north and should have known better.

The old gods might be listening.

Edited by brashcandy, 26 March 2012 - 04:56 PM.

[MtnLion]

Theon is known to be Ramsay's toad, and possibly Roose's as well.  I do not see anyone saying anything against Ramsay or Roose within earshot of Theon (as Reek).  With that in mind, Lady Barbrey has to talk to Theon, because she wants to visit the crypts and only Theon knows the way.  Lady Barbrey had had her men searching for the entry in vain.  So, what is she going to say while she does what she came to do?  Absolutely everything that will reinforce her position with Roose and Ramsay, she avoided Domeric, didn't she?  What is her true purpose in the crypts, it certainly isn't to talk to Theon, and it certainly is not to just give a lingering look to Ned (which to me indicates fondness, rather than hostility that a glower conveys).  I think that the whole diatribe in the crypts is mainly misinterpretted because of a desire for it to besmirch at least one of the Starks.  I think without the diatribe Lady Barbrey's true intentions in the crypts become very suspect, she couldn't have just come to inspect or look at the scultpure.  

Words are wind, ignore what Lady Barbrey says, and focus on her actions.  

Edited by MtnLion, 27 March 2012 - 02:25 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Lady Dustin is a hard riddle. However Brashcandy's quotes tend to show she is not compassionate. When she recommends that Ramsay treat "Arya" better, she does it only in the cause of Roose's public relations with the northern nobility. If she is a Stark loyalist working to undermine the Boltons, she hides it very well.

Has anybody noticed that in the crypts she calls one of her men "Beron"?

It's quite curious. There was one Beron Stark, Lord of Winterfell. But Beron is a name from the Iron Islands (there is a priest of the Drowned God called Beron). That makes me think that we don't know what became of Dagmer Cleftjaw's band after they left Thorren's Square. Maybe they ended up employed by somebody, just like Asha's men ended up in the service of the Iron banker.

Edited by Bran Vras, 27 March 2012 - 11:54 PM.

[rickard]

I've been reading the plans 1 - 5 and feel that a few of them are fundamentally flawed.  It is difficult for me to believe that Roose really believes that a complete political and tactical victory cementing his power in the north is truly possible.  Think of the two main houses that give Roose support: 1. The freys.  For what transpired in the red wedding it would be difficult to believe that the rest of the north would stand their involvement.  2. The Manderlys.  I believe you already know Lord Manderly's intentions and i think that Roose is very suspicious about that as well.

Thinking about how staunch the Umber's, Glover's, Tallhart's (etc) loyalty is to the Stark line it would be difficult to believe that they would stand for anyone who has involvement in the Red Wedding and the Stark's downfall.  So, of your plans, it appears that #5 is one of the most likely to come to pass.  However, I don't see any type of marrige between Lady Dustin and Bolton for the same reason Brandon Stark and Lady Dustin couldn't be married.  Her house and power is too small to hold the north.  That is why Roose needs the Freys.  But I guess, if he's abandoning all hope to become King in the North, he probably would pull all his power into winterfell and just focus on defense.

Having said all this, there is something very weird about Roose Bolton, Ramsay, and even Lady Dustin.  Thanks for all the threads, I really enjoyed them!

[Bran Vras]

My opinion on plans 1 - 5 is that 1 is not credible. The Lannisters are weak. The Freys are hated by all the North. The Manderlys, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Hornwoods, the mountain clans all hate Ramsay, and probably Roose as well (but Roose's involvement in the Red Wedding might not be that clear for them). It's probable that Roose can't count for long, if at all, on the Glovers, Umbers, Mormonts, and even Karstarks. The Manderlys seem to be so powerful, I don't see how can one govern the north without their support. Roose is completely aware of all this, as he tells Ramsay and Lady Dustin reminds Theon.

Plans 2, 3, 4 (and 5) all contain some truth I think. But in what combination?

Edited by Bran Vras, 28 March 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[CloudFlare]

Hmm, Ramsay's horse goes lame chasing the girl. When Roose is fox hunting and comes across the miller and his wife, his horse is injured as well.

Edit: Derp-Derp need to read more closely. Bran Vras mentioned that himself.

Edited by Scent of Bacon, 01 April 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Scent of Bacon, on 01 April 2012 - 05:33 PM, said:

Hmm, Ramsay's horse goes lame chasing the girl. When Roose is fox hunting and comes across the miller and his wife, his horse is injured as well.

Edit: Derp-Derp need to read more closely. Bran Vras mentioned that himself.

It should be said that horses seem important in Rooses' story, if only as literary devices. Roose seems fond of horses, he takes time to deplore how unfortunate it was that his favourite courser was injured. His second wife Bethany was a Ryswell, a house that worship horses. Lady Dustin gives horses as gift to the two Walder Frey. Roose seems proud of Domeric's prowess at riding horses, something that Lady Dustin would confirm to Theon. Ramsay seems fond of his remarkable horse, probably coming from Roose's stable. Lady Dustin compares Brandon and Lyanna Stark to centaurs. Is it why she was so fond of Brandon? The four horses on the banners of the Ryswells are there all the time above Roose's head in ADwD (and they evoke for me of the four riders of the Apocalypse):

During the whole Winterfell drama, horses are kept in the great hall and they react, are fearful etc and participate to the growing tension as the story unfolds. Their presence recalls the closing sentence of the scene depicting the burning of Winterfell (Theon, ACoK)

Quote

The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing . . .

Once again, I see no meaning in all this. But Roose seems to share with the Ryswell an obsession for horses.

Note: As I am writing this, I realize that as Lady Dustin makes Theon her confident in the crypts, she never mentions Domeric, and in particular not his prowess as a horseman, despite praising the Starks as "centaurs". Thus Roose's prediction to Theon that she will confirm Domeric's valour is contradicted. Is it a sign that Domeric is not that important for her?

Edited by Bran Vras, 03 April 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Lummel]

I like the four horses of the apocalypse, good observation.  Is the apocalypse coming to the North generally or is it (lets mix some serious metaphors here ) a sword of damocles hanging over the head of Roose and the fortunes of the Boltons?

The other thing to say about horses in ASOIAF is that they are half of Sandor's power equation.  A knight is a sword with a horse (or something like that, don't remember the exact words).  Talking about horses, skill on horses, possessing good horses is a way of talking about or expressing the power of the character and their house.

Domeric was Lady Dustin's nephew.  It's either interestingly businesslike that she doesn't spare a word for him or possibly a sign that she was less than impressed by him.   All the talk is about the Starks.  Maybe she was trying to prompt some thing from Theon or possibly the Starks are still her true heart's desire in someway.

Edited by Lummel, 02 April 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Lummel, on 02 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

I like the four horses of the apocalypse, good observation.  Is the apocalypse coming to the North generally or is it (lets mix some serious metaphors here ) a sword of damocles hanging over the head of Roose and the fortunes of the Boltons?

I would tend to say the whole north. We have several characters expressing a sense of doom (Götterdammerung, if I wanted to continue with serious references) as they head to Winterfell in ADwD. Mance:

Quote

“I’ve sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman’s wife. A man should die the way he’s lived. For me that’s steel in hand.”

Theo "Big Bucket" Wull:

Quote

“Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.”

Roose to the northern lords:

Quote

... for winter is almost upon us, my friends, and many of us here shall not live to see the spring.”

For what it is worth, the four horses are plague, famine, war and death. Surely for a northman there would something like cold or winter, proof that the four horses, as we conceive them, are not part of the culture of the Seven Kingdoms.

Lummel, on 02 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

The other thing to say about horses in ASOIAF is that they are half of Sandor's power equation.  A knight is a sword with a horse (or something like that, don't remember the exact words).  Talking about horses, skill on horses, possessing good horses is a way of talking about or expressing the power of the character and their house.

Is it an expression of southern feudalism of does it have a more general meaning?

Lummel, on 02 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Domeric was Lady Dustin's nephew.  It's either interestingly businesslike that she doesn't spare a word for him or possibly a sign that she was less than impressed by him.   All the talk is about the Starks.  Maybe she was trying to prompt some thing from Theon or possibly the Starks are still her true heart's desire in someway.

Neither does she have a word for Bethany. Poor Bethany, nobody ever mentions her name in the whole series. (She died of a fever, according to the appendix.) Sometimes I think she has run away from the Dreadfort in horror, after Ramsay got admitted.

Edited by Bran Vras, 03 April 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Lummel]

No I just meant that military power and nobility in westeros come from the possession of swords and horses, but because of that they also have a symbolic value - they come to represent the abstract ideas of power and nobility.

[CloudFlare]

Lady Dustin says some other interesting things in the crypt with Theon.

1) She mentions that she and Theon have more in common than he suspects.

On the surface this refers to that they both wanted to be Starks. This doesn't seem enough to justify such a bold statement. Theon's greatest 'achievement' is his betrayal of the Starks. I suspect Lady Dustin betrayed the previous generation of Starks somehow becuase of...

2) Fire

Lady Dustin's eyes are said to be afire from the lantern light in the crypts. She also says that she gave her husband a red horse with a fiery mane. Given that Lord Rickard Stark died by burning, this seems to me that she betrayed them to the Mad King.

The references might also tie back to other things. When Melisandre is introduced, her eyes are said to be on fire. Burning horse manes are also referenced at the Red Wedding, and possibly when Arya and the black brothers are caught by the Cersei's agents on their travels north.

[Bran Vras]

Scent of Bacon, on 04 April 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Lady Dustin says some other interesting things in the crypt with Theon.

1) She mentions that she and Theon have more in common than he suspects.

On the surface this refers to that they both wanted to be Starks. This doesn't seem enough to justify such a bold statement. Theon's greatest 'achievement' is his betrayal of the Starks. I suspect Lady Dustin betrayed the previous generation of Starks somehow becuase of...

2) Fire

Lady Dustin's eyes are said to be afire from the lantern light in the crypts. She also says that she gave her husband a red horse with a fiery mane. Given that Lord Rickard Stark died by burning, this seems to me that she betrayed them to the Mad King.

The references might also tie back to other things. When Melisandre is introduced, her eyes are said to be on fire. Burning horse manes are also referenced at the Red Wedding, and possibly when Arya and the black brothers are caught by the Cersei's agents on their travels north.

Or perhaps Lady Dustin is working for the final downfall of the Starks. Note that Ned Stark failed to bring Lady Dustin her husband's bones after the burning of Rickard.

Concerning Bethany, it's curious that Roose doesn't mention her name. Despite his cruelty Roose is scrupulously polite and is careful to address and mention everyone properly: Lady Arya, Lady Barbrey, Lord Redfort, Lady Walda. Lady Bethany is only "my second wife" in his mouth, or one of "his first two wives" (Roose's first wife does not get any better treatment).

I wonder if Bethany has not fallen into disgrace with Roose and perhaps also with her sister. None of the Ryswells ever mention her.

I set upon myself the tedious task of having a close look at the Ryswells. There is hardly anything to mention:

-- The equality in dignity of the four Ryswells is uncomprehensible. There are Rodrik Ryswell, his two sons, and their cousin. All four came with their banner, on equal standing.  Perhaps it's the tradition specific to the Ryswell that the next four male in line represent the house. All four Ryswells sign the letters sent by Ramsay, as if the cousin was equal to the lord. Moreover we are told that the Ryswells can't agree on anything. I don't see what sense to make of all that.

-- Lady Dustin tells us that Rodrik Ryswell had once ambitious plans for his family. But Rodrik does not say a single word throughout ADwD. Does he suffer in silence seeing Ramsay? Perhaps regretting his grandson Domeric?

A few more words about Lady Dustin. I think she projects her own ambitions when she says (Theon, ADwD)

Quote

“Lord Bolton aspires to more than mere lordship. Why not King of the North? Tywin Lannister is dead, the Kingslayer is maimed, the Imp is fled. The Lannisters are a spent force, and you were kind enough to rid him of the Starks. Old Walder Frey will not object to his fat little Walda becoming a queen. White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle ... but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

“You,” said Theon. “There is you. The Lady of Barrowton, a Dustin by marriage, a Ryswell by birth.”

That pleased her. She took a sip of wine, her dark eyes sparkling, and said, “The widow of Barrowton ... and yes, if I so choose, I could be an inconvenience. Of course, Roose sees that too, so he takes care to keep me sweet.”

and a moment later, she betrays herself,

Quote

“If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats.[...]

It took me some time to note Lady Dustin has a personal banner: the crown of the Dustins (representing the King of the first men) above the head of the golden horse of lord Rodrik Ryswell, her father. Seemingly an intention to crown a Ryswell.

Edited by Bran Vras, 05 April 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[Blackfyre Bob]

Jamie Lannister, on 06 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

It's possible. I just really, really hate the idea of Roose being involved with some kind of supernatural phenomenon regarding his sons. To me, the charm of his character is that he's so in tune with the reality of the world, to the point where he himself has become as cold, cruel and detached as he can possibly be, with this constantly listless outlook despite himself. It would be a shame to see that aspect of his persona taken from him, and instead turned into some kind of psychotic Others-worshiping nihilist. But eh.

I personally love the idea that Roose was lying his ass off around "Reek," for the sole purpose of luring Ramsay into a false sense of security. Filling Theon full of affable lies to report back to Ramsay with is positive, so Roose's ultimate revenge for being robbed of perhaps the one person he's ever truly cared about will be all the more unfathomable to the bastard.

Wishful thinking, perhaps, but Roose is a fascinating enigma.

I agree with you strongly.  I think Roose and Lady Dustin are somehow trying to get Ramsay killed, but because of kinslaying, Roose won`t conspire to do it himself; he`s just feeding misinformation to Reek, whom he thinks is Ramsay`s most loyal subject

[Blackfyre Bob]

Bran Vras, on 05 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Or perhaps Lady Dustin is working for the final downfall of the Starks. Note that Ned Stark failed to bring Lady Dustin her husband's bones after the burning of Rickard.

Concerning Bethany, it's curious that Roose doesn't mention her name. Despite his cruelty Roose is scrupulously polite and is careful to address and mention everyone properly: Lady Arya, Lady Barbrey, Lord Redfort, Lady Walda. Lady Bethany is only "my second wife" in his mouth, or one of "his first two wives" (Roose's first wife does not get any better treatment).

I wonder if Bethany has not fallen into disgrace with Roose and perhaps also with her sister. None of the Ryswells ever mention her.

I set upon myself the tedious task of having a close look at the Ryswells. There is hardly anything to mention:

-- The equality in dignity of the four Ryswells is uncomprehensible. There are Rodrik Ryswell, his two sons, and their cousin. All four came with their banner, on equal standing.  Perhaps it's the tradition specific to the Ryswell that the next four male in line represent the house. All four Ryswells sign the letters sent by Ramsay, as if the cousin was equal to the lord. Moreover we are told that the Ryswells can't agree on anything. I don't see what sense to make of all that.

-- Lady Dustin tells us that Rodrik Ryswell had once ambitious plans for his family. But Rodrik does not say a single word throughout ADwD. Does he suffer in silence seeing Ramsay? Perhaps regretting his grandson Domeric?

A few more words about Lady Dustin. I think she projects her own ambitions when she says (Theon, ADwD)


and a moment later, she betrays herself,


It took me some time to note Lady Dustin has a personal banner: the crown of the Dustins (representing the King of the first men) above the head of the golden horse of lord Rodrik Ryswell, her father. Seemingly an intention to crown a Ryswell.

Good find.  That Lady Dustin sure seems to have something up her black sleeve.

[brashcandy]

Great find, Bran This fits into our belief that there is a genuine friendship between Roose and Lady Dustin, or at least some kind of mutually beneficial arrangement. Lady Dustin's very plain way of dressing and without any kind of jewellery might only be a cover for now, or might in fact be a signal that she is waiting to be crowned by a different kind of force/power. A king in the north needs a queen in the north, and it's clear that Lady Dustin doesn't have much respect for Fat Walda.

[Frey Pie]

Great catch Bran.It seems if shes intent on becoming Queen that Roose will always have her support,unconditionally