401 replies to this topic

[Bran Vras]

Blackfyre Bob, on 07 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

Good find.  That Lady Dustin sure seems to have something up her black sleeve.

brashcandy, on 07 April 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Great find, Bran This fits into our belief that there is a genuine friendship between Roose and Lady Dustin, or at least some kind of mutually beneficial arrangement. Lady Dustin's very plain way of dressing and without any kind of jewellery might only be a cover for now, or might in fact be a signal that she is waiting to be crowned by a different kind of force/power. A king in the north needs a queen in the north, and it's clear that Lady Dustin doesn't have much respect for Fat Walda.

Frey Pie, on 07 April 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

Great catch Bran.It seems if shes intent on becoming Queen that Roose will always have her support,unconditionally

Additional note: I think the crown of Barrowton represents something a bit different from the crown of the north. It's the crown of the First Men. So it does not refer to the former kingdom of the North, but to something more ancient, which might not be related to the Starks. Here is Theon as he approaches Lady Dustin's stronghold. (Theon ADwD)

Quote

As he climbed a wide flight of wooden steps to the hall, Reek’s legs began to shake. He had to stop to steady them, staring up at the grassy slopes of the Great Barrow. Some claimed it was the grave of the First King, who had led the First Men to Westeros. Others argued that it must be some King of the Giants who was buried there, to account for its size. A few had even been known to say it was no barrow, just a hill, but if so it was a lonely hill, for most of the barrowlands were flat and windswept.

Edited by Bran Vras, 07 April 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Bran Vras]

Let's recall what we have noticed about Lady Dustin:

• She dresses all in black, without ornaments, recalling thus the Night's Watch.
  
• She is fond of saying “The north remembers, Frey.”
  
• She deplores the southern ambitions of lord Rickard Stark.
  
• She evokes the kingship of Roose, and his dependency on her for that ambition.
  
• She sometimes begin her sentence by "If I were queen..."
  
• She has a personal banner with Lord Ryswell's horse under the crown of Barrowton.
  
• Lord Ryswell had once great ambitions for his family.
  
• Barrowton might hold the grave of the king of the first men, who led the first men to Westeros.

I can add the following little finding. Here is the story of the 79 sentinels.

Quote

Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell’s youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. The Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels, they’re called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Years later, when Lord Ryswell was old and dying, he had himself carried to the Nightfort so he could take the black and stand beside his son. He’d sent him back to the Wall for honor’s sake, but he loved him still, so he came to share his watch.”

So the Ryswells once ruled the Barrowlands, and not the Rills. Did the Ryswells lose the Barrowlands because of the seventy nine sentinels story? My suspicion that they might have a some sort of a claim to the kingship of the First Men becomes stronger. I also suspect that the First Men in question had a horse culture. However, I don't see where the Boltons would fit in this story.

About lord Ryswell's great ambitions for his family, there was the desire to marry Barbrey to a Stark, the marriage of Bethany and Roose. We don't have any indication of what was planned for the Ryswells sons (Rickard and Roger). Apparently Domeric was raised as a great horseman, and probably made his grandfather proud. The male Ryswells are strangely silent in Winterfell.

There is a more complicated argument that supports the King of the First Men/King of Winter distinction and its significance. I am quite excited about it, but it is a bit off topic here, and it will be part of a forthcoming thread.

Edited by Bran Vras, 08 April 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Frey Pie]

Made a possible find last night from the chapter where Theon is giving "Arya"away at her wedding in Winterfell.The mists are very heavy and Theon describes a change in looks of many of the attendees.Whoresbane was a gargoyle,Stout a mastiff,Big Waldr a fox etc.However whats of interest is how he describes Roose as a pale grey mask,with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes had been.
Well it seems to me that Rooses eyes look as the others eyes do.Icey.But covered in dirt-not fully an Other but perhaps a servant on the way?Pale grey mask gives a deathly visage.Either way definately a very distinctive and meaningful description.
This is the same chapter where Theon has his first long chat with Lady Dustin where she comments on how unfeeling he is and how he plays with men.

[brashcandy]

Frey Pie, on 09 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Made a possible find last night from the chapter where Theon is giving "Arya"away at her wedding in Winterfell.The mists are very heavy and Theon describes a change in looks of many of the attendees.Whoresbane was a gargoyle,Stout a mastiff,Big Waldr a fox etc.However whats of interest is how he describes Roose as a pale grey mask,with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes had been.
Well it seems to me that Rooses eyes look as the others eyes do.Icey.But covered in dirt-not fully an Other but perhaps a servant on the way?Pale grey mask gives a deathly visage.Either way definately a very distinctive and meaningful description.
This is the same chapter where Theon has his first long chat with Lady Dustin where she comments on how unfeeling he is and how he plays with men.

I think you're onto something here, frey pie. The description of Little Walder is of a red bull, only missing the ring in his nose, and we know that Little Walder was definitely the more "bullish" of the two cousins, with Theon noting that he was becoming more and more like Ramsay. Whoresbane Umber's description as a gargoyle is also curious. Isn't Little Walder's body found by the ruined gargoyles in Winterfell? Perhaps a clue that Whoresbane is the murderer? And yes, I fully realise that this is crackpot

[Patchface12]

Perhaps Roose was afraid Ramsay would use "brotherly love" to manipulate Domeric into killing him, and thus had him poisoned in the interest of self preservation.

I don't see Roose giving a mummers fart about the Others, let alone believing in them.

Edited by Patchface12, 17 April 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Bran Vras in the thread I know you have wondered about the influence of Ramsey's mother over Roose and have even thought there could be similarities with the Night's Queen. I'm sure you seen the recent findings in the Heresy 10 thread of Martin comparing the Others with the Sidhe well I found this on a female Leanan sidhe, and I see possible connections with some of the things you were wondering about, here is what it says...

Quote

In Celtic folklore, the Irish: leannán sí "Barrow-Lover" (Scottish Gaelic: leannan sìth; Manx: lhiannan shee; [lʲan̴̪-an ˈʃiː]) is a beautiful woman of the Aos Sí (people of the barrow or the fairy folk) who takes a human lover. Lovers of the leannán sídhe are said to live brief, though highly inspired, lives. The name comes from the Gaelic words for a sweetheart, lover, or concubine and the term for a barrow or fairy-mound.
The leanan sídhe is generally depicted as a beautiful muse, who offers inspiration to an artist in exchange for their love and devotion; however, this frequently results in madness for the artist, as well as premature death. W. B. Yeats popularized a slightly different perspective on these spirits with emphasis on their vampiric tendencies:

The Leanhaun Shee (fairy mistress) seeks the love of mortals. If they refuse, she must be their slave; if they consent, they are hers, and can only escape by finding another to take their place. The fairy lives on their life, and they waste away. Death is no escape from her. She is the Gaelic muse, for she gives inspiration to those she persecutes. The Gaelic poets die young, for she is restless, and will not let them remain long on earth - this malignant phantom.

[StoneBorn]

Just to throw another cracked theory into the ring, consider this:

Based on the First and Second Theories of Bran Vras, could it be possible that Roose believes that he can elongate his life with these measures (leeches, information from Qyburn)? It would give explain his youthful appearance, If it is possible, and give him motive for eliminating male heirs that can challenge him.

He doesn't have to terribly worry about Ramsay either. As stated, everyone things he's a monster, easy to eliminate.

[Sansouci]

sarah.jenice, on 02 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I can't wait to see the rest of your theory!

This is incredibly well thought out and document with text. There is a very disturbing vibe around Roose Bolton, and it would be crazy if he is a sorceror. Great catch on the leech use and how it mirrors Melisandre.

This is a great theory. Of course if he is sorcerer, it seems that he will eventually have to confront Bran, the new Greenseer. I also think he is waiting for an opportunity to destroy Ramsay.

[Sansouci]

Frey Pie, on 09 April 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Made a possible find last night from the chapter where Theon is giving "Arya"away at her wedding in Winterfell.The mists are very heavy and Theon describes a change in looks of many of the attendees.Whoresbane was a gargoyle,Stout a mastiff,Big Waldr a fox etc.However whats of interest is how he describes Roose as a pale grey mask,with two chips of dirty ice where his eyes had been.
Well it seems to me that Rooses eyes look as the others eyes do.Icey.But covered in dirt-not fully an Other but perhaps a servant on the way?Pale grey mask gives a deathly visage.Either way definately a very distinctive and meaningful description.
This is the same chapter where Theon has his first long chat with Lady Dustin where she comments on how unfeeling he is and how he plays with men.

Are you suggesting that Roose is some sort of Other/Human quisling?

[Bran Vras]

Elaena Targaryen, on 24 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

@Bran Vras in the thread I know you have wondered about the influence of Ramsey's mother over Roose and have even thought there could be similarities with the Night's Queen. I'm sure you seen the recent findings in the Heresy 10 thread of Martin comparing the Others with the Sidhe well I found this on a female Leanan sidhe, and I see possible connections with some of the things you were wondering about, here is what it says...

Yes, Elaena, I could imagine Ramsay's mother as a spirit of this type. But here, the mother is using her influence on Roose to advance her son (even though Roose appears to hate Ramsay). And Roose has yet to display any artistic inspiration. So I hardly see what Roose is gaining in his traffic with this creature.The idea that Roose would need somebody to take his place to get rid of the curse is quite intriguing...

[Frey Pie]

Sansouci, on 24 April 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

Are you suggesting that Roose is some sort of Other/Human quisling?

That is indeed my idea. This thread is too long to read over all of it but it has been put forward with much evidence that Roose doesnt care so much for either his own Houses survival or indeed that of the Norths. For along time we agonised over why Roose is so carefree about Ramsey slaughtering his children. What was his endgame if not to further his family? Well it came to me that all Roose wants to do is survive. He knows Winter is Coming and what this means. I believe Roose may turn out to be a supporter of the Others and this quote is a hint of it. I know it sounds crackpot but it adds up when you read the thread as a whole

[Bushido]

Roose is most definitely a player. However,thinking that he is aware of The Others or has any idea what is happening beyond the wall is a bit of a stretch. Still,I find him very attached to laws of old gods,old laws,and sorcery therefore,(especially blood sacrifice) so his interests in Harenhall are fitting.

No Westerosi is aware of the true enemy.

Lady Dustin could be well scheming,and in her endeavour,presents an unreliable narrator tool in the hands of Martin,or she is an utter Stark loyalist,not for the Starks' sake,but North's.

[Bran Vras]

I reviving this thread to add a little item which might be of interest. Recall the book burning episode in Harrenhal (second theory upthread):

Quote

Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them.

This expression in bold made me curious. It is used again when Melisandre burns the "Horn of Joramun":

Quote

The Horn of Joramun burst into flame.
It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon’s garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air.

and when the high priest Benerro, First Servant of R'Hllor, preaches in Volantis :

Quote

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

A few questions arise: are the "runes" on the horn Valyrian glyphs? Did letters appear in the air when Roose burnt the book? Is there any analogy between Melisandre burning of the Horn and what Roose has done with the book?

Edited by Bran Vras, 03 May 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[GreenHand]

Bran Vras, on 30 April 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

I reviving this thread to add a little item which might be of interest. Recall the book burning episode in Harrenhal (second theory upthread):
...
This expression in bold made me curious. It is used again when Melisandre burns the "Horn of Joramun":
...
and when the high priest Benerro, First Servant of R'Hllor, preaches in Volantis :
...
A few questions arise: are the "runes" on the horn Valyrian glyphs? Did letter appear in the air when Roose burnt the book? Is there any analogy between Melisandre burning of the Horn and what Roose has done with the book?

That is an interesting alignment of phrase. It's like escaping energy or an escaping spirit. I always wondered what that book was. And whether it was pertinent to his decisions and execution (no pun intended) leading up to the Red Wedding.
If there are First Men runes associates with the Book it cannot be a coincidence that it is at Harrenhal so close to the Isle of Faces. Perhaps there is more contact/discourse/exchange between Harrenhal and the First Men on the Isle of Faces than it seemed at first. Even if it was generations back.

An interesting notion that the First Men runes are in fact Valyrian glyphs. good catch. I have been waiting for a reader of First Men runes to apear. Of all the peoples I expected the Thenn to be able to read runes. They are after all immersed in an image of bronze-age First Men culture it seems.
If they cannot read runes it would bolster this theory as well as theories linking the establishment of Hardhome with Valyria. Hmmm...

[flinky]

The leechings and eternal youth references seem very like Anne Rice's vampires, Lestat (Ramsay being loud/making a commotion) waking Akasha, the Queen of the Damned (Lady Dustin) who in turn wanted to kill all the men.  Reek would be like Armand i guess because of the torturing and Roose trying to be young would be the reporter.

But that is how i try to make them like real vampires (Stroker's and Rice's are the only real ones imo).  i could draw lines to Twilight but they would hold no truths or meanings, to me or anyone else for that matter.

[TheFlayedMan]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I'm curious as to why you would discount what seems to be an event that fits in well with the character of Ramsay and has been confirmed by Roose for a seemingly unmotivated murder based on flimsy speculation?

[rmanoj]

Just a tangential note on the "First King" idea: If the First Men came to Westeros across the arm of Dorne, I really, really doubt that they would have been able to (or felt the need to) make it as far North as Barrowton within the lifetime of the First King. It would have required a successful Blitzkrieg against the CoTF, which goes against what we've been told about a war that lasted a couple thousand years before the signing of the Pact.

[Bran Vras]

TheFlayedMan, on 03 May 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I'm curious as to why you would discount what seems to be an event that fits in well with the character of Ramsay and has been confirmed by Roose for a seemingly unmotivated murder based on flimsy speculation?

We don't know who killed Domeric. What we know is that Roose advertises deliberately that Ramsay killed Domeric. Roose says: "Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." So Roose would just have to approve his maester to absolve Ramsay, and he doesn't.

Moreover, the death of Domeric presents all the symptoms of poisoning by the tears of Lys, a substance too exotic to have been in Ramsay's possession. In any case, poison is not Ramsay's style.

There are many more arguments in the thread about the similarity between Craster and Roose/Ramsay, about the real political objectives of Roose.

rmanoj, on 03 May 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Just a tangential note on the "First King" idea: If the First Men came to Westeros across the arm of Dorne, I really, really doubt that they would have been able to (or felt the need to) make it as far North as Barrowton within the lifetime of the First King. It would have required a successful Blitzkrieg against the CoTF, which goes against what we've been told about a war that lasted a couple thousand years before the signing of the Pact.

Wrong thread. In fact I raised this objection in the other thread. Greenhand tried to answer it, and I encourage you to read his post.

[GreenHand]

rmanoj, on 03 May 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Just a tangential note on the "First King" idea: If the First Men came to Westeros across the arm of Dorne, I really, really doubt that they would have been able to (or felt the need to) make it as far North as Barrowton within the lifetime of the First King. It would have required a successful Blitzkrieg against the CoTF, which goes against what we've been told about a war that lasted a couple thousand years before the signing of the Pact.

Bran Vras, on 03 May 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Wrong thread. In fact I raised this objection in the other thread. Greenhand tried to answer it, and I encourage you to read his post.

The thread Bran Vras is referring to:
http://asoiaf.wester...en/page__st__40

Essentially it's about architecture and settlement of the First Men in Westeros. In very short: The First Men seem to have mass colonized Westeros maybe fleeing something in Essos. Though they might expected to settle in fertile riverlands, I think that the vast, flat plains of the Barrowlands formed a safehaven/base-of-operations (perhaps for a capital) away from hostile, though sparse CotF.

[Ferrous]

Possible Roose wants Theon to kill Ramsay?

Treats Theon relatively well until the wedding whilst dropping hints that he (Roose) wouldn't be overly fussed if Theon killed Ramsay.
Then he hopes that Theon can kill Ramsay so he can not only avoid kinslaying but have Ramsay removed.