401 replies to this topic

[I'll pay the iron price]

Poor Theon, he has been used all of his adult life!

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Oh wow long thread...

Ok I did read the whole thing and agree with the posters who have stated that there is alot of conjecture here and the "supporting evidence" is weak at best.  Not impossible, just unlikely that's where GRRM is going.

That being said though I enjoy these type of crackpotty threads as they tend to bring up intersting connections/inconsistencies.  So in the spirit of the thread let me get a theory out.

I believe that the "Stark" NW king in Old Nan's story is another case of an unreliable narrator/red herring.  I would even venture to say that when this story is told in the north they most likely end it that way saying the NW king was from their house and pinching the child's nose lol.  i.e. if told in a Flint household: "some say the NK was a stark, a bolton etc. etc, but don't listen, it was a Flint!"

So continuing on this crackpot line of thought...  The NK was a bolton.  Hence the enmity between the 2 houses as a Stark put an end to his reign, the disgusting practice of flaying (secrets of life extension or others sacrifice), and the ice eyes.

Which brings me to the book.  I was excited when i reread the passage of the burnt book at harrenhall here as I lost my copy of COK and its the only one I have'nt reread.  someone upthread mentioned that leather doesn't burn easily no matter how old and dry yet in this instance it catches instantly and seems to be gone before the paper even.  Ok I'm about to blow your mind...

The book is not leatherbound but bound in HUMAN SKIN!  It's an old Bolton History/spellbook that Harren the black may have aquired from the Boltons.  However the book got there it was the source of the rituals that Lady Lothston discovered to help preserve her vitality/youth/beauty.  It contains something that may be helpful against the others (if we wanna really go out on a limb and make roose a straight agent of the others, as mel says they do exist), or just bolton recipes/spells that can be damaging to his family/himself if discovered.

It could be that Qyburn himself located the book and in an attempt to ingratiate himself with Roose presents it to him...

Ok that's as far as I wanna go with it.  Let me say i don't think craster's or ramsey's mom were others, or had "power" over the baby daddy's.  We can pretty much shoot that down with the presentation of Reek.  roose says himself he gave her reek when she requested a companion as a joke.  doesn't sound like something an "enchanted" guy would do.

brashcandy congrats on 4000 posts but I gotta say you had a lot of double posts this thread...  Edit button.

[Ciazio]

Kudos to everyone trying to bring out connections between Craster/Others/Harrenhall/Boltons/ecc, Roose is my second favorite character (litterally fighting against the first one: Stannis ).

I spent 4 days reading all the stuffs wrote here and I do agree with everything Ser Endrew Tarth says. I'd like to add that is really possible that Ramsay's mother was a wildling: the cultural similarities with Craster's story are quite evidents.

I too want to throw my two cents in the cracked pot, going - perhaps - too far, but there is something that stroke me while reading your posts and I come to a possible connection between Roose, Harrenhall and Qyburn.

I'll start from what we know/can assume from the books:

• Roose isn't scared by his lack of friends in the North and doesn't give a fig about all the enemies he has near him.
  
• Harrenhall is considered cursed, and all the 7 noble families that dwelled here have died out. Moreover, we know that many of the Whent's women were steriles with the notable exception of Lady Minisa, who went to live in Riverrun and still had some miscarriages/stillborn children.
  
• Qyburn might have found something in Harrenhall that gave him the power to resurrect Gregor (UnGregor).

And now I'll try to reunite all the three points in one theory. We, the readers, have knowledge of something that:

• Is an energy source which, in a world of magic, could make the deads walking.
  
• In the long run can cause death and bareness of the people living nearby.
  
• Can give a single person the power above many, when turned in a weapon.

You can see where I'm going, right? Yes, "uranium" and "atomic energy".

Add to these clues the fact that the distruction of Hardhome and the Doom of Valyria can resemble an atomic explosion (with the corollary of "monsters" dwelling the lands nearby even hundred of years later) and we can infer that there is some sort of "atomic magic" going around in the world of ASOIAF.

Roose knows that there are only two ways to rule the North: by love and by fear. He also knows that no one is going to love him and he might have been working on a "way" to rule by fear.

Is he preparing a "nuclear bomb" in the Dreadfort's dungeons? Is he going to wipe out... say... White Harbor?

I know it can be seen as a dumb theory but, please, help me and say I'm not crazy...


ETA: Ramsay might become the unaware pawn that brings the "bomb" on the objective. Think about it, in a single move Roose could: kill the man who killed his heir, wipe out his most powerful enemy and force every other man in the North to bend the knee. Epic win.

Edited by Ciazio, 16 July 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[brashcandy]

Ser Endrew Tarth, on 12 July 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

Oh wow long thread...

Ok I did read the whole thing and agree with the posters who have stated that there is alot of conjecture here and the "supporting evidence" is weak at best.  Not impossible, just unlikely that's where GRRM is going.

That being said though I enjoy these type of crackpotty threads as they tend to bring up intersting connections/inconsistencies.  So in the spirit of the thread let me get a theory out.

I believe that the "Stark" NW king in Old Nan's story is another case of an unreliable narrator/red herring.  I would even venture to say that when this story is told in the north they most likely end it that way saying the NW king was from their house and pinching the child's nose lol.  i.e. if told in a Flint household: "some say the NK was a stark, a bolton etc. etc, but don't listen, it was a Flint!"

So continuing on this crackpot line of thought...  The NK was a bolton.  Hence the enmity between the 2 houses as a Stark put an end to his reign, the disgusting practice of flaying (secrets of life extension or others sacrifice), and the ice eyes.

Which brings me to the book.  I was excited when i reread the passage of the burnt book at harrenhall here as I lost my copy of COK and its the only one I have'nt reread.  someone upthread mentioned that leather doesn't burn easily no matter how old and dry yet in this instance it catches instantly and seems to be gone before the paper even.  Ok I'm about to blow your mind...

The book is not leatherbound but bound in HUMAN SKIN!  It's an old Bolton History/spellbook that Harren the black may have aquired from the Boltons.  However the book got there it was the source of the rituals that Lady Lothston discovered to help preserve her vitality/youth/beauty.  It contains something that may be helpful against the others (if we wanna really go out on a limb and make roose a straight agent of the others, as mel says they do exist), or just bolton recipes/spells that can be damaging to his family/himself if discovered.

It could be that Qyburn himself located the book and in an attempt to ingratiate himself with Roose presents it to him...

Ok that's as far as I wanna go with it.  Let me say i don't think craster's or ramsey's mom were others, or had "power" over the baby daddy's.  We can pretty much shoot that down with the presentation of Reek.  roose says himself he gave her reek when she requested a companion as a joke.  doesn't sound like something an "enchanted" guy would do.

brashcandy congrats on 4000 posts but I gotta say you had a lot of double posts this thread...  Edit button.

Interesting theory about the human skin book... And I have 5000 posts now, so fresh congratulations are in order I also didn't realise I had left double posts! Eeeps, apologies!

[Frey Pie]

Ah my gavourite thread ever finally back where it should be!! Good theory on the book being made of human skin. Two things though-as far as i know human skin smells funny when burnt and so surely Arya would have mentioned it. In addition why would roose burn it if the book contained so much important info? Unless as an offering perhaps.

The atomic bomb idea is too far for me. You made some good points but your conclusion i cant concur wwith. Roose as an agent of the Others has always worked for me on many levels however and i think ill stick with it until the Winds or somebody conclusively convinces me otherwise.

Congratulations Brash!!

[Ciazio]

Frey Pie, on 16 July 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

as far as i know human skin smells funny when burnt and so surely Arya would have mentioned it.

I heard it smells like chicken.

Frey Pie, on 16 July 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

The atomic bomb idea is too far for me. You made some good points but your conclusion i cant concur wwith.

I don't buy it too, it was just a random - yet reasonable - thought  

(And it remembered me about Terry Brook's Shannara cycle where the fantasy world is the result of an atomic war in a normal world)

Edited by Ciazio, 16 July 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Dimadick]

Ser Endrew Tarth, on 12 July 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

The book is not leatherbound but bound in HUMAN SKIN!  It's an old Bolton History/spellbook that Harren the black may have aquired from the Boltons.  

Have you per chance been reading "The Scarlet Citadel" (1933) by Robert Erwin Howard? In that story the sorcered Tsotha-lanti claims to write his scrolls on human skin.:  "What word from you shall I say to your women, before I flay their dainty skins for scrolls whereon to chronicle the triumphs of Tsotha-lanti?"

I am always reminded of that story when I read of Roose and his little games. Because the story contains the phrase: "Men and women were to the wizard no more than the writhing insect is to the scientist".

[Dimadick]

Ciazio, on 16 July 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Is an energy source which, in a world of magic, could make the deads walking.

• In the long run can cause death and bareness of the people living nearby.
  
• Can give a single person the power above many, when turned in a weapon.

You can see where I'm going, right? Yes, "uranium" and "atomic energy".

Uranium is found in nature, can be mined for (as in the Middle Ages when certain silver mines also produced uranium), and can be refined to a metal. "When refined, uranium is a silvery white, weakly radioactive metal, which is harder than most elements. It is malleable, ductile, slightly paramagnetic, strongly electropositive and is a poor electrical conductor."


"Uranium is not as rare as it was once thought. It is now considered to be more plentiful than mercury, antimony, silver, or cadmium. About as abundant as molybdenum and arsenic. It occurs in numerous minerals. "... As a metal, "it is a little softer than steel". "Natural uranium is sufficiently radioactive to expose a photographic plate in an hour or so." See: http://www-d0.fnal.g...ng/elements.pdf

Dangers of uranium mining and other long-term exposure to natural uranium include:

*A rise in stillbirths
*A rise in birth defects
*Spreading of cancer in both adult and underage population of an area
*Kidney disease
*Tuberculosis
*Sterility

"That report showed a far greater incidence of congenital abnormality, sterility, and cancer among people living within 2.5 kilometres (1.5 miles) of the mines than those living 35 kilometres away. Mothers in villages close to the mine sites were also twice as likely to have a child with congenital deformities, it said." See: http://uranium-news....harkhand-india/

Are you suggesting Harrenhal itself includes uranium among its building materials or that the dragon fire used against it was radioactive?

Edited by Dimadick, 22 July 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Ciazio]

Dimadick, on 17 July 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Are you suggesting Harrenhal itself includes uranium among its building materials or that the dragon fire used against was radioactive?

I'm not suggesting it, it come to my mind while reading the thread

Just like, while reading your post, come to my mind that:

Quote

When refined, uranium is a silvery white, weakly radioactive metal, which is harder than most elements

is a perfect description of Dawn, Arthur Dayne's sword.

Due to my job, I'm used to view things out of the box and from a wide angle, so I usually come up with this kind of strange connections... And I don't buy at all my own theory, it's just reasonable and plausible, yet not likely  

Anyway, if I have to translate uranium and "atomic energy/bomb" in the world of ASOIAF, I'd connect it to some kind of magic and/or energy source going on in Harrenhall's dungeons (I'd like to know if the Targs invaded the Seven Kingdoms to prevent Harren the Black from using "the bomb" as someone else did during the Doom). Maybe a magic connected to the CoTF: Hammer of the Waters (why not a sort of bomb?) and the presence of the Weirwood in Harrenhall (an ironborn fortress).

It's pure speculation, fueled also by all the stuffs about Roose hanging the stewart that gave Tywin the treasure vault's key, about the ancient book (a book of "spells" and "science"?) and, most of all, the only long-living man in the castle: the smith. The only one surrounded by heavy metal that prevented him to be "infected" by radiations.

I'm crazy, I know.

Edited by Ciazio, 17 July 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Maia]

I have started a re-read of ASOIAF, and in his first chapter in AGOT Tyrion comments on how old parchment scrolls are very dry. Maybe the book that Roose burnt was simply very old? Frankly, I used to think that it was just a copy of the book of lineages that helped first Jon Arryn and then Ned to figure out the twincest.

But I do find the notion that Roose is a sorcerer and that it was some kind of sorcerous text very intriguing.

OTOH, I think that him being in league with the Others would be a rather boring developement. IMHO, it would be much more intriguing if Jon had to work with Roose to fend off the Others. Imagine the drama and the culture clash, all overshadowed by the need to cooperate! Also, working with alien menace that wants to end the world (of men) is difficult to present as anything but dumb.

Anyway, awesome finds re: Lady Dustin's possible intentions to marry Roose and be his queen.

Speaking of Domeric, I don't see Roose murdering him after going to lengths to foster him with 2 different families, etc. Not being a fool, Roose also had to expect a significant culture and personality clash once Domeric returned, so I don't see him reacting that drastically to disobedience.
OTOH, it is really easy to find some significantly poisoneous mushrooms that would kill through affecting "the bowels" if you are anywhere near a forest, so I really don't see Ramsey needing Tears of Lys or any specialized poison. Or his mother ditto.

I do think that Roose fetching Ramsey to Dreadfort after was a strange move, because if Ned had taken an interest or investigated, it would have been a date with Ice or taking the black for both of them. Hm... are Starks hardcore enough to handle gelding personally too, hm?
But anyway, unless Bolton is a seer, he couldn't have known that he'd be able to use tBoB to his advantage. Nor do I see Ned helping him to Legitimize tBoB, because even he would have known that Boltons becoming extinct would be a lucky break for the Starks. And even if he didn't he would have investigated tBoB before agreeing to it, which see above.

P.S. It has been repeatedly mentioned in the thread that we don't know who Roose's first wife was, but I seem to remember that it says somewhere that she was a Glover.

Edited by Maia, 17 July 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

brashcandy, on 16 July 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

Interesting theory about the human skin book... And I have 5000 posts now, so fresh congratulations are in order I also didn't realise I had left double posts! Eeeps, apologies!

LOL i figured you were'nt aware of it, thx for not taking it the wrong way just wanted to point it out.  5K posts whoa congrats!

As for the nuke, not likely i would think.  But I would like the idea of a large scale magic attack.  It seems there would be more stories surrounding radioactive exposure, like a majority of those at Harrenhall having hair fall out, or skin conditions.

This thread ROX!  lol

[gendarme]

To add to the 'nuke' theory: in the description of uranium above, it was noted that it resembles silver to some extent. Could this have something to do with Roose choosing Fat Walda as his wife since this got him her weight of 'silver' from Lord Walder? If so, this would explain Roose's seemingly not rational choice of bride since he had other goals in mind at that time. Could the Freys have gotten their hands on the same 'silver' that makes Harrenhall what it is because of their proximity to it? Could it have somehow affected them in the opposite way, leading to the many children of old Lord Walder? And finally, it is said that in the North, there are a lot of silver mines - maybe that's where Roose learned of what would be considered uranium and how he could use it?

Edited by gendarme, 17 July 2012 - 04:02 PM.

[tomfoster]

Lady Octarina, on 05 March 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

As unlikely as that is, I really love this sinister idea! It reminds me of another story, something I became familiar with many years ago, so many years that I don't even remember what it was about... vampire story, perhaps? Well, the parallels between Roose and traditional vampires are certainly there, if we forget the sun problem.

There's an early "Buffy, the Vampire Slayer" story in which an adult witch transfers her mind into her daughter's body to have a second chance at popularity and success at school.

You may also be thinking of a short story by Martin called

Spoiler

"The Pear-Shaped Man", available in "Dreamsongs: A RRetrospective [sic]". It's about a young women who moves into a converted block of flats, and becomes fearful of the resident of the basement flat. He is the reclusive, pear-shaped man of the title, who appears to live off Pepsi and Cheesy Wotsits (as far as I recall). After he gradually circles in on her, she finds herself being forced to swap bodies with him, and ends up living his life.

Edited by tomfoster, 17 July 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Ser Illin']

Quote

P.S. It has been repeatedly mentioned in the thread that we don't know who Roose's first wife was, but I seem to remember that it says somewhere that she was a Glover.

It was Bethany Ryswell, aka Lady Dustin's sister.

[Sword in the Morning]

We most certainly have to consider Roose's motives here. Roose is painted as a sociopath--that is, he is completely emotionally incapable, neither loves nor empathizes, but rather sizes up the world in a purely material and pragmatic sense. After his son died, he kept Ramsay (his son's supposed killer) around for exactly the reason he explained: he's too old to raise another child to manhood. If and when he dies, he wants his lordship to pass to an adult, because child-lords have a nasty habit of being horrible leaders. So he keeps around the closest thing he has to an adult son.

He is capable of depravity because he feels no compulsion to act on a set of morals. He acts in a calculating manner to benefit himself and his legacy. Therefore, it would make no sense to murder his heir, especially since he gives us no sense that his trueborn son was given to overt acts of cruelty. He despises Ramsay's sloppiness, his tendency to act in a way that gets himself noticed and labeled as a monster. This sows enmity, and earns the Boltons new enemies...which is dangerous to the legacy. Roose's true son did not make him any enemies, and was therefore preferable to Ramsay. And so, he has neither psychological or logical reason to kill his son.

[Dimadick]

Ser Illin, on 21 July 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

It was Bethany Ryswell, aka Lady Dustin's sister.

Roose mention Bethany as his second wife. Walda is the third wife. His first wife so far has not been identified.

[Ser Illin']

My bad. Shoulda read the wiki...

[brashcandy]

Sword in the Morning, on 22 July 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

We most certainly have to consider Roose's motives here. Roose is painted as a sociopath--that is, he is completely emotionally incapable, neither loves nor empathizes, but rather sizes up the world in a purely material and pragmatic sense. After his son died, he kept Ramsay (his son's supposed killer) around for exactly the reason he explained: he's too old to raise another child to manhood. If and when he dies, he wants his lordship to pass to an adult, because child-lords have a nasty habit of being horrible leaders. So he keeps around the closest thing he has to an adult son.

He is capable of depravity because he feels no compulsion to act on a set of morals. He acts in a calculating manner to benefit himself and his legacy. Therefore, it would make no sense to murder his heir, especially since he gives us no sense that his trueborn son was given to overt acts of cruelty. He despises Ramsay's sloppiness, his tendency to act in a way that gets himself noticed and labeled as a monster. This sows enmity, and earns the Boltons new enemies...which is dangerous to the legacy. Roose's true son did not make him any enemies, and was therefore preferable to Ramsay. And so, he has neither psychological or logical reason to kill his son.

This is a plausible argument, but if we take into consideration that Roose is banking on a completely different power then it might make sense why he gets rid of Domeric. Let's remember, Roose is actuallyone of the people responsible for spreading tales about Ramsay. He could have easily attributed Domeric's death to some sickness, but he chooses to lay the blame at Ramsay's feet. He also connects him with the abominable Reek and tells Theon that Ramsay will kill all the true born sons Walda gives birth to. Curiously, he also doesn't put a stop to Ramsay's "sports" in the woods with hunting women, a practice that has eerie parallels to when the Others hunted women in the forest during the Long Night.

Edited by brashcandy, 23 July 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[FanTasy]

brashcandy, on 23 July 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

This is a plausible argument, but if we take into consideration that Roose is banking on a completely different power then it might make sense why he gets rid of Domeric. Let's remember, Roose is actuallyone of the people responsible for spreading tales about Ramsay. He could have easily attributed Domeric's death to some sickness, but he chooses to lay the blame at Ramsay's feet. He also connects him with the abominable Reek and tells Theon that Ramsay will kill all the true born sons Walda gives birth to. Curiously, he also doesn't put a stop to Ramsay's "sports" in the woods with hunting women, a practice that has eerie parallels to when the Others hunted women in the forest during the Long Night.

This is exactly why I think Roose is morally an equal 'bastard' to his son.
Roose uses Ramsay as his 'fall guy'. He doesn't stop him. He thinks some behavior of Ramsay is counterproductive but evenso he profits from it.
He thinks his son Domeric is killed but doesn't seem to hold it against Ramsay.
He even says he expects Ramsay to kill the male children Fat Walda will give him.

Roose is the perfect example of a ruthless opportunist and he scares the hell out of me.

[Ciazio]

Ciazio, on 16 July 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I too want to throw my two cents in the cracked pot, going - perhaps - too far, but there is something that stroke me while reading your posts and I come to a possible connection between Roose, Harrenhall and Qyburn.

I'll start from what we know/can assume from the books:

• Roose isn't scared by his lack of friends in the North and doesn't give a fig about all the enemies he has near him.
  
• Harrenhall is considered cursed, and all the 7 noble families that dwelled here have died out. Moreover, we know that many of the Whent's women were steriles with the notable exception of Lady Minisa, who went to live in Riverrun and still had some miscarriages/stillborn children.
  
• Qyburn might have found something in Harrenhall that gave him the power to resurrect Gregor (UnGregor).

And now I'll try to reunite all the three points in one theory. We, the readers, have knowledge of something that:

• Is an energy source which, in a world of magic, could make the deads walking.
  
• In the long run can cause death and bareness of the people living nearby.
  
• Can give a single person the power above many, when turned in a weapon.

You can see where I'm going, right? Yes, "uranium" and "atomic energy".

Add to these clues the fact that the distruction of Hardhome and the Doom of Valyria can resemble an atomic explosion (with the corollary of "monsters" dwelling the lands nearby even hundred of years later) and we can infer that there is some sort of "atomic magic" going around in the world of ASOIAF.

Roose knows that there are only two ways to rule the North: by love and by fear. He also knows that no one is going to love him and he might have been working on a "way" to rule by fear.

Is he preparing a "nuclear bomb" in the Dreadfort's dungeons? Is he going to wipe out... say... White Harbor?

Just found another quote that fuels this crazy theory of mine. As said before i don't believe in it, it's something that stroke me while re-reading the books.

I don't have the perfect quote, but it's from a Jaime POV in AFFC, when he goes to Darry's castle on his road to Riverrun.

Jaime tells his squire that if he loved Pia he should have told here and bedded here if she wanted.

Pia is a serving girl, born in Harrenhall and have never travelled further than a mile from the castle (as Jaime says many times). When the Lannisters captured the castle, she transformed herself in a whore, bedding every man of the garrison.

After saying to his squire to bed her, Jaime thinks something like this:

Quote

You can be sure, you won't leave her with child, she's been fucking the whole garrison and had never had a child. The girl is probably barren

More food for thoughts. I bet we will never know the truth about Harrenhall's curse, but this might be another evidence that there is nuclear (magic) activity going around the castle.