240 replies to this topic

[Baitac]

after being imprissoned for illicit sexual acts, false accusations against Margery, and abuse of power, Cersei is granted freedom provided that she walk from her prison to the castle. Small detail: she must process barefoot, naked, and fully shaved from head to toe. Did her crimes and sins merit this punishment? How do you see this event affecting the Queen and those around her.

Edited by Baitac, 01 March 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Fearsome Fred]

As a matter of human policy, I disapprove of that sort of punishment.

Whether it did Cersei any good, I cannot say.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Her crimes befit a harsher punishment but not of sexual humiliation type. But her sexual relationships she confessed did not deserve such a punishment at all, nor do I consider them crimes at all.

As a reader I had my mind of the immeasurable evil that Cersei has committed and so far escaped unpunished but I admit that there was even a little sympathy for her as undeserving of that she might be due to the evil she has committed throughout her life. Sympathy due to the type of punishment she was submitted for not her actual crimes. Still knowing that she is guilty of things deserving harsh punishment that makes my sympathy even more limited.

The punishment does have some sort of 'poetic justice' in that a noble who have completely abused their position and power to the suffering of everyone bellow her without ever been punished about it and especially the smallfolk who she saw beenath her, is now shamed and attacked by the smallfolk. It is an attack on noblity and its enormous classism and abuse of power. But it is also disgustingly sexist and unfair because while we know that she is guilty of multiple murders, torture, etc, that is not why she was punished for. So it is unjust.

So no I think she should not have been punished in that way but my sympathy for a person of such evil as Cersei is limited. As a reader, the fact that this monster was finally punished at all is a positive in comparison to Cersei ending the books as the victor of the game of thrones but the punishment should have been fair and a different one for her actual crimes. Still she hasn't suffered even a fraction of the suffering she caused to others and even I in my little sympathy don't wish a punishment upon her that is anywhere near the overall suffering she caused to others.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 29 February 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[jarl the climber]

Actually she was being punished for fornication, sex outside of marriage. Nor does this walk garuntee her freedom, she must still face charges of regicide, deicide, adultery and treason. Knowing everything that we do about her its hard to feel a lot of sympathy for her and to put the situation in context, how often is this punishment handed out, and is it only handed out to women, would it have been better to give her thirty lashes with a whip? I think the result will be to make her be more cautious and deliberate. I'm also wondering if this sort of thing will become commonplace with new HS. I also wonder if it will create some sympathy for Cersei among the commons, probaly lots of women in Kings Landing have had to sleep with men and comprimise themselves to support their family or children during the war and they might identify with her but whom knows.

[The King in the South]

She was being punished for having sex with guys after Robert was already dead....so

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

she doesn't deserve that for the crimes, just for being caught. i mean its not much of a punishment really.  the worst part is having to walk barefoot through Kings Landing.

[jarl the climber]

The King in the South, on 29 February 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

She was being punished for having sex with guys after Robert was already dead....so

Do you really beleive that? Like I'm saying we still have to find out more about this new HS but I think if this was the only thing that he thought Cersei was guilty of he wouldn't have made her do it and its implied in the epilouge that Ser Kevan played a role in this punishment being chosen and went along with it because he knew about Jamie.

[Apple Martini]

One of the men she was accused of having sex with was one of her guards during her walk of shame, only he was fully clothed, not on display and not being punished.

I loathe Cersei, and she deserves whatever she gets for the murders she's ordered and caused and condoned. But slut-shaming her for having sex and making her walk like that, when a man wouldn't have to face a similar punishment, was disgusting.

[The King in the South]

jarl the climber, on 29 February 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Do you really beleive that? Like I'm saying we still have to find out more about this new HS but I think if this was the only thing that he thought Cersei was guilty of he wouldn't have made her do it and its implied in the epilouge that Ser Kevan played a role in this punishment being chosen and went along with it because he knew about Jamie.

Except he also charged Margaerys cousins with "fornication" as their crime, and the only reason they weren't forced to do the walk/etc either is because of a lack of evidence.. Basically the dude is saying that females having sex when they're no married is a crime and deserves punishment.

[Fire Eater]

Apple Martini, on 29 February 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

One of the men she was accused of having sex with was one of her guards during her walk of shame, only he was fully clothed, not on display and not being punished.

I loathe Cersei, and she deserves whatever she gets for the murders she's ordered and caused and condoned. But slut-shaming her for having sex and making her walk like that, when a man wouldn't have to face a similar punishment, was disgusting.

True, the misogynistic attitude could be seen when the High Septon said to Cersei that the wantonness of widows was known, He has that attitude where woman are overtly sexual beings compared to men when you hardly hear of men being raped by women, or that whores wouldn't be in business if they didn't have a sizable male client base.

Cersei's punishment was meant for women. A queen can lose her head for having a bastard while her kings gets no punishment at all for horning her multiple times.

[brena]

I was under the impression that the walk of shame wasn't actually an official punishment for her sins, but was a deal Kevan and the High Septon made to allow Cersei to be released, but under house arrest while waiting for her trial. She could have refused to do it. To me, it wasn't really made to fit her crimes, but only to kick her off her pedestral.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

This scene was one of the few times when I felt genuinely resentful toward GRRM as an author, because the entire thing was so contrived and shamelessly salacious.

The author needed Cersei back at the Red Keep.  He needed to show Robert Strong, and begin rebuilding Cersei's position before her trial, for whatever outcome he intends there.  He also (evidently) needed her chastened (or believed to be so) by those around her.  Either Cersei is going to come roaring back as the lioness in TWOW and find a way to make herself a force to be reckoned with again, or she is truly broken and TWOW will see her continue her downward spiral to complete self destruction.  Either way, he needed her back at the Keep, free(ish) to act in some direction, and he needed both her enemies and whatever friends she has left to believe she has been broken.

IMO the way he came up with to make this come about was extremely difficult to find credible, unbelievably sexist (even taking into account that this is Westeros and not modern times), and one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever read in my life.  There are a hundred other ways that he could have written her being released to the Keep both chastened and having made some form of atonement, that would not have involved this "walk of shame." The entire scene where she is forcibly shaved bare by strange women was bad enough.  Having it followed by parading her out into the streets naked was unbelievably awful.  But then when he began throwing in the crowd's rude and lewd commentary about her breasts and stretch marks (and all this, about a slender woman in her mid 30's who has borne three children), I found that my respect for him as an author had actually slipped down several notches.

If the scene had even been remotely credible, I might could have overlooked its sheer misogynism the same way one must overlook viciously realistic depictions of battles, rapes, etc.  But the entire idea itself was so utterly farfetched that I can only assume it was included to satisfy some rather base and ugly whim on the part of the author.  Regardless of how many sparrows are hanging around Baelor's Sept, regardless of what a woman-hating pig the HS is, regardless of how angry the powers surrounding the crown might be with Cersei, this is the king's mother.  She is of noble blood*, a member of the royal family, and the crimes for which she is being "punished" are of the type that tend to be either accepted as inevitable, or hushed up to avoid a scandal.  I will never be convinced that the powers surrounding Tommen, even the Tyrells, would ever have allowed such a thing to take place, no matter how much they hate Cersei.  It reflects horribly on all the nobility and opens them up for the same possible treatment one day (after all, if the HS can do as he pleases with the queen mother, then who is safe from his judgment and sentences?).  

Most importantly, it undermines the position and dignity of the crown at a time when it most desperately needs shoring up.  The rest of the court cannot stand back and say "hey, don't look at us." In such a firmly divided classist society, the sins of one member of the nobility are most definitely seen as the sins of them all, insofar as the populace is concerned.  Lastly, this is a subversion of the power structure in Westeros almost on the same order of magnitude as Henry VIII breaking from Rome, except in reverse.  Henry decided that the church would no longer have any authority over the crown.  With this walk, it appears the Regent, Hand and Council have allowed the church to seize the true authority from the crown, by pretending to be powerless to stop it from happening.

*note:  I am not saying that Cersei should have been spared this only because she was highborn, I would he just as disgusted if it happened to a milkmaid.  I am simply explaining why I find it utterly impossible to believe in the context of the story, utterly contrived, and borne of suspect motivations.

Cersei absolutely deserves trial and just punishment for her crimes.  This was nothing even approaching that.  It was a public spectacle put on to appeal to the basest nature of the crowds (and, more disturbingly, the readers) which had no credibility whatsoever, and the author did himself a great discredit by writing it, IMO.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 29 February 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

This scene was one of the few times when I felt genuinely resentful toward GRRM as an author, because the entire thing was so contrived and shamelessly salacious.

The author needed Cersei back at the Red Keep.  He needed to show Robert Strong, and begin rebuilding Cersei's position before her trial, for whatever outcome he intends there.  He also (evidently) needed her chastened (or believed to be so) by those around her.  Either Cersei is going to come roaring back as the lioness in TWOW and find a way to make herself a force to be reckoned with again, or she is truly broken and TWOW will see her continue her downward spiral to complete self destruction.  Either way, he needed her back at the Keep, free(ish) to act in some direction, and he needed both her enemies and whatever friends she has left to believe she has been broken.

IMO the way he came up with to make this come about was extremely difficult to find credible, unbelievably sexist (even taking into account that this is Westeros and not modern times), and one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever read in my life.  There are a hundred other ways that he could have written her being released to the Keep both chastened and having made some form of atonement, that would not have involved this "walk of shame." The entire scene where she is forcibly shaved bare by strange women was bad enough.  Having it followed by parading her out into the streets naked was unbelievably awful.  But then when he began throwing in the crowd's rude and lewd commentary about her breasts and stretch marks (and all this, about a slender woman in her mid 30's who has borne three children), I found that my respect for him as an author had actually slipped down several notches.

If the scene had even been remotely credible, I might could have overlooked its sheer misogynism the same way one must overlook viciously realistic depictions of battles, rapes, etc.  But the entire idea itself was so utterly farfetched that I can only assume it was included to satisfy some rather base and ugly whim on the part of the author.  Regardless of how many sparrows are hanging around Baelor's Sept, regardless of what a woman-hating pig the HS is, regardless of how angry the powers surrounding the crown might be with Cersei, this is the king's mother.  She is of noble blood*, a member of the royal family, and the crimes for which she is being "punished" are of the type that tend to be either accepted as inevitable, or hushed up to avoid a scandal.  I will never be convinced that the powers surrounding Tommen, even the Tyrells, would ever have allowed such a thing to take place, no matter how much they hate Cersei.  It reflects horribly on all the nobility and opens them up for the same possible treatment one day (after all, if the HS can do as he pleases with the queen mother, then who is safe from his judgment and sentences?).  

Most importantly, it undermines the position and dignity of the crown at a time when it most desperately needs shoring up.  The rest of the court cannot stand back and say "hey, don't look at us." In such a firmly divided classist society, the sins of one member of the nobility are most definitely seen as the sins of them all, insofar as the populace is concerned.  Lastly, this is a subversion of the power structure in Westeros almost on the same order of magnitude as Henry VIII breaking from Rome, except in reverse.  Henry decided that the church would no longer have any authority over the crown.  With this walk, it appears the Regent, Hand and Council have allowed the church to seize the true authority from the crown, by pretending to be powerless to stop it from happening.

*note:  I am not saying that Cersei should have been spared this only because she was highborn, I would he just as disgusted if it happened to a milkmaid.  I am simply explaining why I find it utterly impossible to believe in the context of the story, utterly contrived, and borne of suspect motivations.

Cersei absolutely deserves trial and just punishment for her crimes.  This was nothing even approaching that.  It was a public spectacle put on to appeal to the basest nature of the crowds (and, more disturbingly, the readers) which had no credibility whatsoever, and the author did himself a great discredit by writing it, IMO.

I think in the middle ages the Pope could whip royalty and what not, as I recall from 8th grade history class.

[Queen Cersei I]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 29 February 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

This scene was one of the few times when I felt genuinely resentful toward GRRM as an author, because the entire thing was so contrived and shamelessly salacious.

ADWD: Cersei 1
Cersei sucked in her stretch marked stomach, pulled back her sagging breasts, squared her soldiers, and prepared herself for easily the most appallingly misogynistic chapter in all of modern fiction.

Being tortured and not allowed to sleep, Cersei proclaimed that she would confess to the high septon.

“I am going to confess to you now,” Cersei wept.

“Really? That’s your game plan?” Wondered the septon. “How incredibly stupid. Why wouldn’t you just pretend you were going to confess to get out of your cell and gain an audience with me, then attempt to convince me that you were innocent of all charges? After all, its in my own best interest to believe you, since your opponent is a crazy heretic who would burn me alive if he got the chance."

Clearly this man has not been reading my POV chapters, if he suspects I would ever act in anything like a sensible, coherent manner. “I slept with all three Kettleblacks.” Cersei confessed.  

“Seriously? They are so gross.” Said the high septon.

“Yes, read AFFC, a good half of my POV chapters are dedicated to describing how I let them shag me with my crown on and gave them hand jobs.”

“Hand jobs? Using sex to get ahead?” Roared the Septon. “There is only one punishment for such crimes…public nudity!”


A few days later, Cersei stripped off her clothes to walk through kings Landing naked. “Ewwwww! A nude 33-year-old woman! She’s at least 10 years to old to be even remotely hot! Look at those boobs! Gross! Everyone knows a woman can never be hot over the age of 30!” Exclaimed the gathered citizens of Kings Landing.

Cersei kept her head held high. Meanwhile, the guards and everyone else started disrespecting her, having seen her foul, ancient 33-year-old body.

“Your breasts are no longer half melon shaped and hard, and therefore you are useless as a human being and deserve to die and suffer!” Shouted a 12-year-old boy.

Tears filled Cersei’s eyes. Indeed, it was true. Her entire sense of self worth was promptly diminished in approximately 2 to 3 seconds.

And then, suddenly, the terrible words of Maggie the Frog echoed in Cersie’s ears, “Arrrgah, I am a ridiculous, embarrassingly bad plot device, and you are going to get old and saggy and get your ass owned by some hot young thing, ya hoochie!” Cersei’s eyes filled with tears, and she ran back covering herself just like her father’s former mistress, because she knew instinctively now that she was a dirty, dirty whore.

“Whew, I’m glad that’s over,” Cersei exclaimed to her noble and not at all creepy Uncle Kevan, who’d been standing by and watching this whole thing.

“Sweetling, it’s only beginning,” Said Kevan. “You’ve got at least two more books yet. Get ready for some more, increasingly heinous, intricately described sexual humiliations.”

Cersei’s eyes glazed over.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 29 February 2012 - 11:55 PM.

[Alexia]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 29 February 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

*snipped flawless post for space*

Have I told you how much I love you?  

[Faint]

The punishment fit the story. Cersei being shaved, stripped and paraded across King's Landing is the exact equivalent of Jaime losing his right hand, Bran being crippled, Theon being gelded, and on and on and on. They all lost that which they value most, which, as should be quite apparent, is a running motif in the series. Anyone who expects differently at this point is simply deluding themselves.

[brashcandy]

That was genius, Queen Cersei

[Renly's Peach]

A+ post, Queen Cersei.

[Raksha the Demon]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 29 February 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

This scene was one of the few times when I felt genuinely resentful toward GRRM as an author, because the entire thing was so contrived and shamelessly salacious.

The author needed Cersei back at the Red Keep.  He needed to show Robert Strong, and begin rebuilding Cersei's position before her trial, for whatever outcome he intends there.  He also (evidently) needed her chastened (or believed to be so) by those around her.  Either Cersei is going to come roaring back as the lioness in TWOW and find a way to make herself a force to be reckoned with again, or she is truly broken and TWOW will see her continue her downward spiral to complete self destruction.  Either way, he needed her back at the Keep, free(ish) to act in some direction, and he needed both her enemies and whatever friends she has left to believe she has been broken.

IMO the way he came up with to make this come about was extremely difficult to find credible, unbelievably sexist (even taking into account that this is Westeros and not modern times), and one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever read in my life.  There are a hundred other ways that he could have written her being released to the Keep both chastened and having made some form of atonement, that would not have involved this "walk of shame." The entire scene where she is forcibly shaved bare by strange women was bad enough.  Having it followed by parading her out into the streets naked was unbelievably awful.  But then when he began throwing in the crowd's rude and lewd commentary about her breasts and stretch marks (and all this, about a slender woman in her mid 30's who has borne three children), I found that my respect for him as an author had actually slipped down several notches.

If the scene had even been remotely credible, I might could have overlooked its sheer misogynism the same way one must overlook viciously realistic depictions of battles, rapes, etc.  But the entire idea itself was so utterly farfetched that I can only assume it was included to satisfy some rather base and ugly whim on the part of the author.  Regardless of how many sparrows are hanging around Baelor's Sept, regardless of what a woman-hating pig the HS is, regardless of how angry the powers surrounding the crown might be with Cersei, this is the king's mother.  She is of noble blood*, a member of the royal family, and the crimes for which she is being "punished" are of the type that tend to be either accepted as inevitable, or hushed up to avoid a scandal.  I will never be convinced that the powers surrounding Tommen, even the Tyrells, would ever have allowed such a thing to take place, no matter how much they hate Cersei.  It reflects horribly on all the nobility and opens them up for the same possible treatment one day (after all, if the HS can do as he pleases with the queen mother, then who is safe from his judgment and sentences?).  

Most importantly, it undermines the position and dignity of the crown at a time when it most desperately needs shoring up.  The rest of the court cannot stand back and say "hey, don't look at us." In such a firmly divided classist society, the sins of one member of the nobility are most definitely seen as the sins of them all, insofar as the populace is concerned.  Lastly, this is a subversion of the power structure in Westeros almost on the same order of magnitude as Henry VIII breaking from Rome, except in reverse.  Henry decided that the church would no longer have any authority over the crown.  With this walk, it appears the Regent, Hand and Council have allowed the church to seize the true authority from the crown, by pretending to be powerless to stop it from happening.

*note:  I am not saying that Cersei should have been spared this only because she was highborn, I would he just as disgusted if it happened to a milkmaid.  I am simply explaining why I find it utterly impossible to believe in the context of the story, utterly contrived, and borne of suspect motivations.

Cersei absolutely deserves trial and just punishment for her crimes.  This was nothing even approaching that.  It was a public spectacle put on to appeal to the basest nature of the crowds (and, more disturbingly, the readers) which had no credibility whatsoever, and the author did himself a great discredit by writing it, IMO.

An interesting post.

I don't agree, though.  I didn't find the scene of Cersei's walk even remotely 'salacious'; only pathetic and sad.  (and I don't like Cersei).  I had the impression that GRRM was trying to (A) show the rising power of the Faith and its High Septon, the latter being able to publicly humiliate the mother of the King of Westeros; ( illustrate the fall of the Lannisters in a particularly ironic fashion; GRRM having established how fierce Tywin was in upholding the dignity and prestige of his House, how he wanted to place Jaime and Cersei so high that no one would ever laugh at them and instead, Cersei suffers the same humiliation as the one to which Tywin subjected his father's 'whore'.  

As for the crowd's lewd remarks and mockery of Cersei's physical imperfection; I found that perfectly believable.  Cersei was not particularly loved in King's Landing; crowds can be unpredictable and nasty in their reactions to almost anything.  A naked princess walking through a crowd of poor people, some of whom are hungry or starving, while the princess' sins are being proclaimed, is not going to generally incite sympathy from that crowd.  While I don't think Cersei was physically unattractive; she was not and could not be a slender girl of 16 anymore; after bearing three kids and not having a tremendously physical lifestyle (or trips to the gym), she would probably have a few stretch marks and look like a handsome woman not quite into middle age but no longer youthful.  GRRM had already established that Cersei had put on a little weight, well before she walked out naked through the crowds, where every curve of her figure was visible.  I doubt she'd put on more than five or ten pounds maximum, and was probably still quite beautiful when clothed, but she did go up a dress size or two.  

If it had  been Margaery who had made the same walk, I think the crowd would have been a little kinder to her.  There would have been some catcalls, since she was a queen and there were hungry and starving people; but there would also have been whistles of ribald appreciation; since Margaery was a slender maiden who had not yet gone through even one pregnancy, let alone three.  Also, Margaery had a better reputation than Cersei; Margaery being more skilled at public relations with the people of King's Landing, and had taken pains to visit the markets, buy some goods, act like she at least liked her subjects, whatever her private feelings were; and GRRM had said (I believe) that she was fairly popular with at least some of the people of King's Landing.  

I do agree that we could have done without the details of Cersei's being shaved by the Septas....

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Faint, on 29 February 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

The punishment fit the story. Cersei being shaved, stripped and paraded across King's Landing is the exact equivalent of Jaime losing his right hand, Bran being crippled, Theon being gelded, and on and on and on. They all lost that which they value most, which, as should be quite apparent, is a running motif in the series. Anyone who expects differently at this point is simply deluding themselves.

Thank you!