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The Mummer's Dragon...Dany Is The First To Say It, Not Quaithe


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#1 sarah.jenice

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:47 AM

I’ve posted this as a comment in the topic about Aegon being the real deal (or not), but it hasn’t gotten too many responses (thanks for your thoughts Apple Martini!), and I think it’s an important clue that we need to consider in our numerous debates of the mystery of Aegon/Young Griff.

When people are debating whether or not Aegon is “the real deal,” I see that Aegon being the mummer’s dragon is often brought up as a point of argument against him.

Two main pieces of evidence are:

1. Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying Ones:

A Clash of Kings Page 706 (Dany Chapter)

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

2. Quaithe’s warning to Dany in Meereen:

“Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

But I think I found another important clue that I didn't realize until my third reread of Clash that Dany is actually the first person to identify her House of the Undying Vision of a cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd as a "mummer's dragon." Those are her exact words, and she is the one who took what she saw and connected it to the phrase "mummer's dragon," not Quaithe. (Previously, I thought Quaithe said that first in Meereen.)

A Clash of Kings Page 875 (Dany Chapter)

Jorah and Dany are discussing Dany’s visions and trying to figure out their meanings and Jorah says:
"A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

I think what Dany says there is so important. She gives the description of the mummer's dragon, and if we add Dany, Aegon and Varys into what she says, Varys (mummer) is using Aegon (mummer's dragon) to give the hero (Dany) something to fight. Does this foreshadow what will happen between them? A battle for the throne or a new Dance with Dragons?

I've asked this before and didn't get an answer, but do those of you who believe Aegon is the mummer's dragon also believe Dany is the hero?

In the vision sequence, she is called the slayer of lies, which further makes it seem like she is the hero in the scenario, but I know a lot of people do not think Dany will be the ultimate hero of the series.

Do you guys think this dialogue is as significant as I do and that it's important Dany first named the mummer’s dragon? Will she identify Aegon as the mummer’s dragon or want an alliance? Will he even want an alliance by the time she gets to Westeros or will he be sitting on the Iron Throne married to a vital political ally.

I really want to hear your thoughts!

#2 Revan Baratheon

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

She would be wise to ally and marry(even if he turns out to be a blackfyre) Aegon.But knowing Dany she will no doubt declare war on him,which would be another Renly vs Stannis 2.0 sadly.


However if it turns out that Aegon is neither Targaryen nor Blackfyre,but some whore's whelp from lys,then yes she should fight him.

#3 Apple Martini

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

I'm pretty sure I answered it, didn't I? I said that just because Dany has a "mummer's dragon" to fight doesn't necessarily mean that she's the "hero." It's possible that the vision is given from Dany's own perspective — she sees herself as the hero, fighting a fake dragon.

I think Aegon is fake but I'm not ready to concede that Dany is a hero just because she fights him.

#4 OnionAhaiReborn

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:01 PM

I don't like to base arguments on prophecy because I agree that they are highly contestable and not necessarily trustworthy. That said, in the context of all the other non-prophetic pieces of evidence, I think the cloth dragon in the House of the Undying is a fairly clear piece of evidence for Aegon being fake.

I don't read a whole lot into her being the first to use the term 'mummer's dragon' in the books. It seems like it's just a common phrase used in the Free Cities to describe cloth dragons in mummer's shows. Will Dany have to fight Aegon? Very possibly, although whether this makes her a hero or not is debatable. I think in her mind, and in the minds of her supporters, yes, she is the 'hero'. But if you're an Aegon supporter, she is not the hero. That's sort of just the nature of conflict.

#5 Eejit

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

While I do think Aegon is probably real I doubt Dany will see it that way and expect that they shall fight. She will think he's fake, she knows nothing about him being Varys' puppet or Varys being a mummer and as far as their plot goes that's what matters.

Edited by Eejit, 01 March 2012 - 12:05 PM.


#6 PatrickStormborn

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:07 PM

I don't think Varys' use of Aegon is to paint Daenerys as a hero. I think Dany's line is simply foreshadowing how things will turn out. However, I'm not sure how many people will see her as a hero for going against Aegon. Stannis going against Renly, despite being just, wasn't particularly heroic.

A lot of posters seem to think that Dany will land in Westeros and everyone will flock to her. I don't see that happening. As I've said, I see the "mummer's dragon" as being her villain; he's something for the hero to fight against. But fighting against Aegon isn't itself heroic -- particularly as heroism depends on your perspective (example: Ned is a hero for opposing Joffrey's rule, but he caused the realm to descend into war, which isn't heroic).

I don't think it really matters if Dany used it first. It's possible that Quaithe's definition is different to Dany's, but Quaithe urges Daenerys to "remember the Undying". So I'd imagine that Quaithe has a good idea of what Dany saw in there (some have suggested that she's been using a glass candle to watch and communicate with Dany, which would make this possible).

I'd also like to add that Dany is on course to reunite with Illyrio at some point, so I believe she'll know if Aegon is legitimate long before she reaches Westeros.

#7 sarah.jenice

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:11 PM

I'm pretty sure I answered it, didn't I? I said that just because Dany has a "mummer's dragon" to fight doesn't necessarily mean that she's the "hero." It's possible that the vision is given from Dany's own perspective — she sees herself as the hero, fighting a fake dragon.

I think Aegon is fake but I'm not ready to concede that Dany is a hero just because she fights him.


You answered me Apple, but you were the only one so I wanted to make a topic.

Thanks again!

#8 Jerritus

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

In that scenario, Aegon doesn't have to be fake Targaryen/Blackfyre to be Mummer's Dragon. And Slayer of Lies could refer to some other thing.

#9 PatrickStormborn

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:15 PM

In that scenario, Aegon doesn't have to be fake Targaryen/Blackfyre to be Mummer's Dragon. And Slayer of Lies could refer to some other thing.


If we're going by what Dany thinks, then Aegon has to be fake. Mummer's dragon, by her definition, is a dragon made by mummers to give the hero something to fight against. There's not much else that "slayer of lies" could refer to.

#10 sarah.jenice

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

I'm going to post Apple Martini's great replies from yesterday and my responses because I think they help explain where I'm going with this.

Posted

Yesterday, 05:22 PM


[img]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/public/style_images/asoiaf/snapback.png[/img]Apple Martini, on 29 February 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:


Good question.

1. I think that the Dance of the Dragons, like the Blackfyre Rebellion, has been name-dropped a few too many times not to come up again or be important again. They might not go full on dragon-on-dragon, but yes, I do see Aegon and Dany fighting eventually. If the "blood of the dragon" stuff is true (as far as it being necessary to tame a dragon), being a Blackfyre, he could very well have more Valyrian blood than she does. I would have liked to see them unite, but I think Aegon taking Tyrion's advice was a big turning point for him. He will probably have a big power base if Dany ever gets to Westeros, and the people supporting him might not be pro-Dany/Dragons. I think whether real or fake, Aegon is a mummer's dragon because his moves in the Game of Thrones are going to be controlled by others (mainly Varys and Illyrio), and that is what will probably put him against Dany. He may even be married before she arrives to form an alliance. I expect the Dance with Dragons will come up again, too.

2. I think that the cloth dragon could be for Dany to fight without her being the "hero," if that makes sense. To that end, I'll do you one better: In this society, dragons and their riders are not heroes. The heroes are the ones who slay dragons. So if someone with real dragons kills a fake one, are they a hero? I don't know. Ha ha. I like your answer. I thought I remembered that you are for Aegon being the mummer's dragon but not a big Dany fan, and I love how you handled the answer. You're right about dragons not being the hero but the dragon slayer. Unless of course the Others need some fire treatment. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

3. Why would Jorah not know what a mummer's dragon is, but Dany does? Strikes me as odd.The way I read the scene, and I could be totally wrong, is that this is a childish description that Dany is using, such as a kid explaining the puppets in a show to an adult who'd never seen them. And Jorah being from Bear Island, might not have seen too many performing mummers. Her use of this term makes Quaithe's wording seem so much more personal if it is not a common phrase but more of layman's terms that Dany uses. How much is Quaithe watching her?



#11 Eejit

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

There's a LOT "slayer of lies" could refer to. A mummer's dragon is manipulated by mummers.

#12 Apple Martini

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

There's a LOT "slayer of lies" could refer to. A mummer's dragon is manipulated by mummers.


It's more than that, though. They don't just manipulate them, they make them.

#13 PatrickStormborn

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:33 PM

There's a LOT "slayer of lies" could refer to. A mummer's dragon is manipulated by mummers.


“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

What else about that particular vision is a lie that she needs to slay? Remember that a "cloth dragon" is something created by mummers, as Apple Martini has said. It is not just something used by mummers. And, regardless, what would she need to slay about that?

#14 Jerritus

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:36 PM

If we're going by what Dany thinks, then Aegon has to be fake. Mummer's dragon, by her definition, is a dragon made by mummers to give the hero something to fight against. There's not much else that "slayer of lies" could refer to.

Mummer's dragon could also be a "real" Dragon owned/manipulated by mummers, in this case mummers being Varys and/or Illyrio.

And the Blackfyre theory, Blackfyres are still "dragons" just as much as Targaryens. They just got buttraped back in the good ol' days.



But then again, as Apple Martini said, mummer's dragons are also made by mummers. So this Aegon might just be someone with the Targaryen look, and not a dragon at all. But who knows, for me it could go either way, real or fake, and still fit the prophecy.

#15 Faint

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

I don’t even think ‘Aegon Targaryen’ is a Blackfyre, although, I do think Varys is. Moqorro spoke of a fake dragon, not a different kind of dragon.

Also, for what it’s worth, “slayer” has the ring of “victor” to me.

#16 Eejit

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:38 PM

Slayer of lies does not have to refer only to the mummer's dragon. She became mother of dragons and became known by that name prior to the prophesied event, why couldn't the same be true of Slayer of lie?

The metaphor of a mummer's dragon could refer to being manipulated by or created by mummers, it does not have to be so complete a metaphor to include both. And who says puppetmakers are always puppetmasters rather than say, carpenters making puppets for mummers?

#17 Jerritus

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:39 PM

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

What else about that particular vision is a lie that she needs to slay? Remember that a "cloth dragon" is something created by mummers, as Apple Martini has said. It is not just something used by mummers. And, regardless, what would she need to slay about that?



Mother of Dragons and Slayer of Lies are both just titles used to describe Dany. Mother of Dragons isn't exactly needed in that prophecy either.

#18 PatrickStormborn

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:40 PM

Slayer of lies does not have to refer only to the mummer's dragon.


Well, what else do you think it could be referring to?

#19 Apple Martini

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:42 PM

The metaphor of a mummer's dragon could refer to being manipulated by or created by mummers, it does not have to be so complete a metaphor to include both. And who says puppetmakers are always puppetmasters rather than say, carpenters making puppets for mummers?


I think you're reaching here. In any case, the puppeteers in The Hedge Knight made their own puppets, I'm pretty sure. I think we're a long way from a division of labor in the puppet business.

#20 Eejit

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

Well, what else do you think it could be referring to?


Any high-profile event between now and when the prophecy happens when Dany may kill any of the multitude of liars and betrayers in the books...