193 replies to this topic

[Jory]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 01 March 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Ehm, no, just because, so far, he is the only one who has tried to do something about it

*grinds teeth*

[A Shadow]

I have gotten around to think that if Jon is a Targaryen, then Dany is a "mummer's dragon" as well in a sense. She is a Targaryen, but not the Targaryen.

In another thread I've picked up this quote: A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

People are more likely to cheer Dany with dragons than simply Aegon. But probably I am just digging too hard or too far away from the right place.

Edited by A Free Shadow, 06 March 2012 - 10:57 AM.

[Urien the Ragged]

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

I have noticed this, the mummer's dragon and dark flame are mentioned separately. if dark flame is a reference to the blackfyres and "aegon", then mummer's dragon means something else and references a different person. mummer's dragon is most definitely not dany though. quaithe would npt tell her not to trust herself.

Edited by Urien the Ragged, 24 May 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Dark Flame seems to be Moqorro.

Also, the vision said 'soon comes...' but ultimately neither the griffin (which i assume is Jon Connington) nor the mummer's dragon (Aegon) came. They changed their plans and went on to Westeros on Tyrion's advice, as opposed to the rest of things mentioned on the vision. So...?

[Ditocorto]

A Free Shadow, on 06 March 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

People are more likely to cheer Dany with dragons than simply Aegon

people won't cheer dragons, they will be damn scared of them (noone liked the dragons in Mereen, not even the freedmen), but I think Aegon will be soon loved by many people in Westeros, nobles and smallfolk alike will see him as someone that can restore some sense into the realm. And that brings me to what I wanted to say: we're focusing on the mummer's part of the prophecy and we see Aegon as "" Illiryio's dragon" BUT we know that he already stopped following Illiryo's plan! he was going to be the mummer's dragon but now he'll be the mummer's dragon in a different sense: the dragon that the people cheer (so in the mummer's dragon metaphor we go from "the tool of the mummer" to "the part of the show that the audience love"), somehow is a way to bend a prophecy, and shows us either that you can change your future when it's foreshadowed to you or that prophecies are hard to analyze (you pick). There is even a bit of foreshadowing about this in, I believe, A Clash of Kings when word reaches the council that there's a puppet's show in town that seems to be loved by the smallfolk where at the end a cloth dragon kills the quarrelling lions and wolves  (if I remember correctly).

Will Aegon and Dany fight? maybe, maybe not, I think Jon Connington would never harm Dany (Rhaegar sister!) and I don't see why Carys&Illiryo would want to have the two of them fight (and their scheming is the only thing that coul really lead there), right now Aegon has (will have) the people and the army and Dany has the dragon and the claim that noone can dispute: they need each other.

Is Aegon a blackfyre? maybe, maybe not, but if that's the case how could we know? how could they know? (Illiryo&Varys won't say a thing) Even if he were, there's no reason they can't just marry and put the whole thing at rest

If nothing happens the situation as it is now (and I don't believe Dany would marry Victarion or Euron) leads to a family reunion between the dragons, to have them fight something has to happen imho, something tragic like Aegon going insane and killing people at random (completely out of characther) or Dany deciding she's the only one that deserves to rule (but she thinks she's barren, how could she deny another Targaryen, a sudden hope for the bloodline, the rule and, more importantly, the life and therefore the possibility of having a heir?)


wow, I wrote a lot, I apologize in advance for my limping english (I'm from Italy)

[houseHB]

Aegon is the mummer's farce. Varys was a Mummer and Aegon is a puppet of Vary's and Illyrio

Jon is the clothed dragon. In the last Jon chapter remember Ramsay's letter my enemies heads on Spikes, Also, Jon was cheered by people around him when he was about to march to Winterfell.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Will Aegon and Dany fight? maybe, maybe not, I think Jon Connington would never harm Dany (Rhaegar sister!) and I don't see why Carys&Illiryo would want to have the two of them fight (and their scheming is the only thing that coul really lead there), right now Aegon has (will have) the people and the army and Dany has the dragon and the claim that noone can dispute: they need each other.

Jon Connington would never harm Dany, unless he has reason to... (like Dany trying to hurt or usurp what he sees as Aegon's rights). Why would Varys want to hurt Dany?: if she comes all conqueror-like and refuses to recognize and marry Aegon to give him legitimacy (which seems to be foreshadowed a lot what with all the mummer's dragon visions she has), then she is useless and a threat to Varys.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Is Aegon a blackfyre? maybe, maybe not, but if that's the case how could we know? how could they know? (Illiryo&Varys won't say a thing) Even if he were, there's no reason they can't just marry and put the whole thing at rest

How could they know? Dany will already suspect (or even downright "know" it) from the visions, and Tyrion could also tell her (as i suspect Tyrion has deduced Aegon to be a Blackfyre).

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

If nothing happens the situation as it is now (and I don't believe Dany would marry Victarion or Euron) leads to a family reunion between the dragons, to have them fight something has to happen imho, something tragic like Aegon going insane and killing people at random (completely out of characther) or Dany deciding she's the only one that deserves to rule (but she thinks she's barren, how could she deny another Targaryen, a sudden hope for the bloodline, the rule and, more importantly, the life and therefore the possibility of having a heir?)

"I will take what is mine with fire and blood!! rargh, rargh!"... Such cooled reasoning as 'hope for the blodline' doesn't quite seem like Dany.

Edited by Xray the Enforcer, 28 September 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[Ditocorto]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Jon Connington would never harm Dany, unless he has reason to... (like Dany trying to hurt or usurp what he sees as Aegon's rights). Why would Varys want to hurt Dany?: if she comes all conqueror-like and refuses to recognize and marry Aegon to give him legitimacy (which seems to be foreshadowed a lot what with all the mummer's dragon visions she has), then she is useless and a threat to Varys.

I don't see why Dany should'nt recognize Aegon as her nephew, and thanks to Quaithe now as far as she knows them mummer's dragon came to her in Mereen. Varys would want to stay with the winning horse, and Dany has dragons...is more likely that he will have Aegon killed and then give his army to the mother of dragons. I think if Illiryo vouches for Varys she will believe that he wasn't behind the murder attempts and stayed at court to help her win back the throne (and she forgave Barristan, so I don't see the problem).

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

How could they know? Dany will already suspect (or even downright "know" it) from the visions, and Tyrion could also tell her (as i suspect Tyrion has deduced Aegon to be a Blackfyre).

As before: the mummer's dragon came to her in Mereen, plus she doesn't really seems to base her acts on those visions, just think about them from time to time without really understanding anything about them

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

"I will take what is mine with fire and blood!! rargh, rargh!"... Such cooled reasoning as 'hope for the blodline' doesn't quite seem like Dany 'Stormbrat' (like someone around here calls her).

she's matured a little bit I think, and with Tyrion at her side she will may be able to use her head (or at the very least the Imp's)

[LordofWinter]

Two things I just wanted to toss in here

1: mummer's dragon most likely does refer to a DRAGON made by a MUMMER. Varys and Illyrio being the mummers and aegon being the dragon.
But that does not necessarily mean that aegon is fake. Varys and Illyrio did make aegon but let's think about what that actually means. If it can be said that Dany is uneducated, than that most likely is due to her lack of a really invested guardian to ensure that she be properly educated. Aegon on the other hand if you believe the words of Varys and JonCon has had the "Bronx Tale" education. Being that he has had the 'formal' education that most princes would be expected to have had. Plus the 'street' education, as he'd has worked the fields and the fishing docks. He is trained at the sword and the lance and speaks numerous languages. He WAS TRULY MADE INTO A DRAGON. He has been learning the meaning of ruling his whole life, aware that to rule was his duty to the people. But that is because he was made to believe these things by a MUMMER. Aegon was made into a "dragon/king" while dany raised herself up as a dragon after the death of khal drogo. So the mummer's dragon being the cloth dragons mummer's make to fight the hero theory can still hold true if aegon is in fact who he claims to be.

2- THERE ARE 3 HEADS OF THE DRAGON! so let's see in book one GRRM let's us know that dany is a dragon and hints that Jon might be one as well. And waits until 4 books later REINTRODUCES another dragon. Now I'm not saying is for sure a real dragon but let's do a recap: westeros in turmoil. Also on verge of a massive attack from from the winter replenishing horde of the Others. No better time for the return of the 3 heads of the dragon. Of our potential candidates which of them has proven that they are destined for greatness? Dany-dragon breeding pyre survival. Aegon-supposedly killed as an infant, 'escaped' the genocide of his family, returned to save westeros. Jon-YOUNGEST LORD COMMANDER IN THE HISTORY OF THE KNIGHTS WATCH, brokered the deal to create the peace between the people north and south of the wall. Do all potential dragons command the respect, allegiance and arms of the people? Dany- unsullied thief, slave freer, khaleesi, "mother". Aegon-JonCon, Golden Company, in the process of conquering westeros. Jon-possible King of the North(depending on Robb Stark's will), defender and friend of the free folk, and did I mention...YOUNGEST LORD COMMANDER OF THE NIGHTS WATCH IN HISTORY?? Do all potential dragons have the blood of the dragon? Dany-fact. Aegon-rumored. Jon-popular reader theory.

So in my opinion it could come to blows between aegon and dany but if that happens to take place in westeros I don't see it lasting very long as the Others will become the main antagonist in this story. And all three of the "dragons" will have to work together.

[Urien the Ragged]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Dark Flame seems to be Moqorro. Also, the vision said 'soon comes...' but ultimately neither the griffin (which i assume is Jon Connington) nor the mummer's dragon (Aegon) came. They changed their plans and went on to Westeros on Tyrion's advice, as opposed to the rest of things mentioned on the vision. So...?

Moqorro? I don't know about that. dark flame is literally black fire. Moqorro's story is Victarion's story, and Victarion is already mentioned as the Kraken.

[Stanmore]

A Free Shadow, on 06 March 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I have gotten around to think that if Jon is a Targaryen, then Dany is a "mummer's dragon" as well in a sense. She is a Targaryen, but not the Targaryen. In another thread I've picked up this quote: A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. People are more likely to cheer Dany with dragons than simply Aegon. But probably I am just digging too hard or too far away from the right place.

Well if she is the mummer's dragon, she's still the slayer of lies. How would that resolve? Abdication? suicide?

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

I don't see why Dany should'nt recognize Aegon as her nephew (...)

Hmmm, let's see, because she had visions about a cloth/mummer's dragon (which she seems to interpret as 'fake' dragon) in the house of the undying? because vision-Quaithe warned her to not trust the mummer's dragon (among many others)? because character-wise we know that she's not the most 'flexible' person when it comes to changing her dead-set ways of thinking? and one of those is the certainty of being the last Targaryen and the rightful ruler of westeros (which she suddenly wouldn't be becuse of Aegon)? because (and this is just me) Tyrion may tell her that he's a Blackfyre pretender?

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

(...) and thanks to Quaithe now as far as she knows them mummer's dragon came to her in Mereen.

She didn't meet anyone fitting that criteria on Meeren. If you're refering to Quentyn Martell, then he was the sun's son.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Varys would want to stay with the winning horse, and Dany has dragons...is more likely that he will have Aegon killed and then give his army to the mother of dragons.

No. Varys would want to stay with the horse he's invested years and risked his life for, the horse for which he had no problem using Viserys and Daenerys for, his own horse that he's in control of, as opposed to troublemaking and plan-wrecking Daenerys. Read: Aegon.

He has one last use for her; to be Aegon's wife, so she could give him Targaryen legitimacy, and weapons of mass destruction. If she refuses, which she probably will, then she's a threat and enemy to Varys.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

As before: the mummer's dragon came to her in Mereen, plus she doesn't really seems to base her acts on those visions, just think about them from time to time without really understanding anything about them she's matured a little bit I think, and with Tyrion at her side she will may be able to use her head (or at the very least the Imp's)

What mummer dragon came to her in Mereen? read above. And about her maturity, i don't think so, she just reverted back to "Fire and Blood!" and 'take what is mine!' and all that conquering crap.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Urien the Ragged, on 24 May 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Moqorro? I don't know about that. dark flame is literally black fire. Moqorro's story is Victarion's story, and Victarion is already mentioned as the Kraken.

Nope, i don't think so.

First, the vision-Quaithe states '...Kraken and Dark Flame...' and a bit ahead '...the sun's son and the mummer's dragon...' So, like you said, the dark Flame and the mummer's dragon are two different entities.

Second, 'Kraken and Dark Flame' are mentioned together, yes, not a strong argument in itself, but it adds up.

Third, 'mummer's dragon' most likely refer to Aegon given the Varys connection, no other character seems as close to being interpreted as such.

Fourth, Victarion's and Moqorro's plans for Daenerys and her dragons are definitively not the same, not by a long shot. They each have their own agenda, and represent different 'powers'. Or do you really think that all that stuff about the red priests in Volantis and the fact that a red priest is coming to Dany is just for a little diversion?

Fifth, it adds up.

[Timeslice]

Personally, I think it's clear that the Mummer's Dragon is referring to Aegon -- but I don't see why that means he's not a true Targaryen. The way I see it, it just means he's Varys's puppet, which we know to be relatively true.

Dany's line about cloth dragon's being something mummers use to give the hero something to fight, makes sense when you think about it this way: we know that Varys/Illyrio have both been guiding Daenerys and Aegon on their own separate quests, and the obvious question is, why would they be supporting two different factions? Well, with the cloth dragon line, I think that Illyrio and Varys are using one of their investments to destroy the other, for some nefarious purpose. Basically their plan is to raise up Daenerys and Aegon, but then have one of the 'dragons' fight the other (the cloth dragon).

Maybe that's their method of calling Westeros to whoever their true throne candidate is. Maybe having Aegon defeat Daenerys (using this example because I can't stand Dany) is their way of proving Aegon's strength. Maybe that's how Westeros recognizes him as a true Targaryen heir. I dunno. But I think the cloth dragon line is not referring to a fake Targaryen, but rather a Targaryen that they have purposefully groomed for failure.

[Ditocorto]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Hmmm, let's see, because she had visions about a cloth/mummer's dragon (which she seems to interpret as 'fake' dragon) in the house of the undying? because vision-Quaithe warned her to not trust the mummer's dragon (among many others)? because character-wise we know that she's not the most 'flexible' person when it comes to changing her dead-set ways of thinking? and one of those is the certainty of being the last Targaryen and the rightful ruler of westeros (which she suddenly wouldn't be becuse of Aegon)? because (and this is just me) Tyrion may tell her that he's a Blackfyre pretender? She didn't meet anyone fitting that criteria on Meeren. If you're refering to Quentyn Martell, then he was the sun's son.

We know she hasn't, she knows that Quaithe told her the mummer's dragon was coming and being her not exactly the most intellinget characther in the series I think she will see someone as the mummer's dragon (same way she thought Jorah was the betrayal for gold or for love or for both). That thing Quaithe said, and she believes her, contradicts Aegon being the mummer's dragon in Dany's view

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

No. Varys would want to stay with the horse he's invested years and risked his life for, the horse for which he had no problem using Viserys and Daenerys for, his own horse that he's in control of, as opposed to troublemaking and plan-wrecking Daenerys. Read: Aegon.

so much in control that he and Connington decided to do a 180 and conquer Westeros withouth following Varys' and Illiryo's plans...

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

He has one last use for her; to be Aegon's wife, so she could give him Targaryen legitimacy, and weapons of mass destruction. If she refuses, which she probably will, then she's a threat and enemy to Varys.

Varys and illiryo spent a lot of time on Aegon, yes, but in the end is the game of thrones that matters, and they changed plans more than once...

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

What mummer dragon came to her in Mereen? read above. And about her maturity, i don't think so, she just reverted back to "Fire and Blood!" and 'take what is mine!' and all that conquering crap.

see above for the mummer's dragon, she will just see a mummer's dragon somewhere. Even if she reverted to Fire and Blood! that was always about her family more than herself, so again I think she will want to side with Aegon that: looks like a Targaryen, is with Rhaegar's best friend, thinks and acts as a Targaryen (maybe he is, maybe he isn't), is vouched for by Illiryo, which Dany takes in high consideration and thinks is a loyal friend and almost surely will be recognized by the dragons as pureblooded valyrian (Targ or Blackfyre doesn't matter). There may be clues that he isn't a Targ, but we readers have them, not a single characther (with the possible exclusion of Varys and Illiryo). Tyrion saw little boy's clothes? well Aegon lived with Illiryo for a few years before he went living with Connington, now I don't remember the other clues but I doubt anyone, apart from being skeptic of the baby-swap thing, will have a hard time believing Aegon is really Aegon in the books

[Urien the Ragged]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 24 May 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Nope, i don't think so.

First, the vision-Quaithe states '...Kraken and Dark Flame...' and a bit ahead '...the sun's son and the mummer's dragon...' So, like you said, the dark Flame and the mummer's dragon are two different entities.

Second, 'Kraken and Dark Flame' are mentioned together, yes, not a strong argument in itself, but it adds up.

Third, 'mummer's dragon' most likely refer to Aegon given the Varys connection, no other character seems as close to being interpreted as such.

Fourth, Victarion's and Moqorro's plans for Daenerys and her dragons are definitively not the same, not by a long shot. They each have their own agenda, and represent different 'powers'. Or do you really think that all that stuff about the red priests in Volantis and the fact that a red priest is coming to Dany is just for a little diversion?

Fifth, it adds up.

1. yes, i said this, i don't see how this implies that moqorro is the dark flame. if anything, it means that aegon isn't the mummer's dragon.

2. you're right, it's not a strong argument seeing as how the lion and the griffin are grouped together, as are the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. there's no clear connection between any of the 3 groups, really.

3. Varys could be the mummer's dragon himself, nothing is certain, nor is it for certain that the cloth dragon and the mummer's dragon are the same person or thing.

4. This is really the only decent point you make.

5. no, it really doesn't. dark flame and black fire are pretty much the same thing. that doesn't need to add up.

[TheWanderer]

Urien the Ragged, on 24 May 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

Moqorro? I don't know about that. dark flame is literally black fire. Moqorro's story is Victarion's story, and Victarion is already mentioned as the Kraken.

1) Moqorro is literally called Black Flame or something very similar by Victarion's crew.
2) The griffin and the mummer's dragon are both mentioned separately, yet people are pretty certain they mean JonCon and Aegon, who are together. So just because people are traveling together doesn't mean that they can't both be named.

Stanmore, on 24 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Well if she is the mummer's dragon, she's still the slayer of lies. How would that resolve? Abdication? suicide?

You don't have to murder the liar to slay the lie. All she needs to do to be considered the Slayer of Lies is reveal some big lie, possibly Aegon's false claim, possibly something else.


Other things of note: Quaithe says that the mummer's dragon is coming soon but Aegon is traveling in the opposite direction and shows no signs of turning around (and at the rate Dany's been moving she's not getting to Westeros any time soon). So either she's wrong or Aegon's not the mummer's dragon.

Also, Illyrio (and thus presumably Varys) also played a role in creating Dany, even going so far as to literally give her dragons. If all it takes to be considered a mummer's dragon is for a mummer to have had a hand in making you, than Dany also qualifies.

Finally, in Dany's vision there is no hero. The crowd cheers the dragon but I imagine that in the mummer shows the crowd cheers the hero, not the beast. So while Dany assumes that it is a mummer's dragon because it is made of cloth, this isn't necessarily true. It certainly isn't a real dragon but it doesn't necessarily relate to mummer's either.

[PatrickStormborn]

Mummer's dragon literally means "fake dragon". "Mummer's" has been used throughout he series to refer to things that are not real. For example, Dany refers to Xaro's tears as "mummer's tears".

Dany's vision sees a cloth dragon -- not a real dragon. The Undying then call her the "mother of dragons ... slayer of lies", which suggests that her status as the mother of dragons will play a crucial role in slaying the lie of the cloth dragon. What could this lie be? Well, Dany calls the cloth dragon a "mummer's dragon", which (if we go by her previous definition of the word) would simply it is a fake dragon.

It should also be worth noting that mummer's do not use real dragons. Mummer's dragons are false dragons created by mummers.

[Timeslice]

PatrickStormborn, on 25 May 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Mummer's dragon literally means "fake dragon"..

Or, you know, "Varys's Dragon".

[PatrickStormborn]

Timeslice, on 25 May 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Or, you know, "Varys's Dragon".

Go back and read the final line of my post (or, you know, actually bother to read the whole thing). I quite clearly explained why this is not the case. Mummers do not use real dragons.