193 replies to this topic

[Lady Hodor]

I like the idea, but are we maybe taking their words too literally? GRRM is a smart guy, he wouldn't want us to be able to guess what he means by "Mummer"
So perhaps our perception is completley off, and the word means something we would never expect, that fits into the per usual asoiaf situation.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

PatrickStormborn, on 25 May 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Mummer's dragon literally means "fake dragon". "Mummer's" has been used throughout he series to refer to things that are not real. For example, Dany refers to Xaro's tears as "mummer's tears". Dany's vision sees a cloth dragon -- not a real dragon. The Undying then call her the "mother of dragons ... slayer of lies", which suggests that her status as the mother of dragons will play a crucial role in slaying the lie of the cloth dragon. What could this lie be? Well, Dany calls the cloth dragon a "mummer's dragon", which (if we go by her previous definition of the word) would simply it is a fake dragon. It should also be worth noting that mummer's do not use real dragons. Mummer's dragons are false dragons created by mummers.

Not to mention that the other fire reader tells Tryion he saw old, young, and false dragons with Tyrion in the middle of it all, so if Aegon is real is only the mummers dragon because of Vary's then who is the false dragon...............the only answer i can think of is Aegon

[RedBean]

The "mummer's dragon" vision is not the only thing that suggests that Aegon is fake though. A lot of other clues in the book point towards him being fake, and also be Illyrio's son. Illyrio seems extremely fond of him, for someone who's just using Aegon. I can totally see Illyrio aiming for the stars and trying to put his son on the Iron Throne. And I don't believe that Elia Martell would ever have entrused her son to someone like Varys (even if Jon Connington was involved in the bargain).

Whether Dany is the saviour or not, is a different question. It's possible that she is, but it's also possible that Jon is, or that they'll work together. We don't really know yet.

[Cheese Pudding]

Urien the Ragged, on 24 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

I have noticed this, the mummer's dragon and dark flame are mentioned separately. if dark flame is a reference to the blackfyres and "aegon", then mummer's dragon means something else and references a different person. mummer's dragon is most definitely not dany though. quaithe would npt tell her not to trust herself.

Kraken + Dark Flame = Victarion and Moqorro, trying to reach Danny and get her married with Vic. They will fail.
Lion + Griffin = Tyrion and Connington, will try convince her to marry "Aegon". They will fail.
Sun's sun + Mummer's Dragon = Quentyn and "Aegon", her other husband contenders. Quentyn has failed, Aegon will.

That's why they are in pairs.

Edited by Cheese Pudding, 25 May 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

We know she hasn't, she knows that Quaithe told her the mummer's dragon was coming and being her not exactly the most intellinget characther in the series I think she will see someone as the mummer's dragon (same way she thought Jorah was the betrayal for gold or for love or for both). That thing Quaithe said, and she believes her, contradicts Aegon being the mummer's dragon in Dany's view

Her idiocy at this point is irrelevant. At some point (if she goes to Westeros and Aegon is still alive there) she's gonna be confronted with the fact that there is someone there with a huge army of exiles and mercenaries (plus whatever support he gains from now on) claiming to be Aegon Targaryen rightful ruler of Westeros. If she has 2 brain cells left in her cranial vault she will remember the visions from multiple sources plus her own pride and self-delusions and make the connection.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

so much in control that he and Connington decided to do a 180 and conquer Westeros withouth following Varys' and Illiryo's plans...

Yeah, thanks to Tyrion that. But he still much more in control for the simple reason that Aegon sees Illiryo and Varys as important allies whereas Dany sees Illiryo as the man who 'sold' her to Khal Drogo, and Varys as the spider who served Robert and sanctioned the attempted murder on her own life. Not to mention the fact that if she were to know the whole truth of the situation from Tyrion, for instance, she would know that she and her brother were used and traded by those two simply to support their own hidden dragon (Aegon)... and by her character we know how much she would 'appreciate' that.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Varys and illiryo spent a lot of time on Aegon, yes, but in the end is the game of thrones that matters, and they changed plans more than once...

No, i don't think so. The amount of effort said to have gone into this Aegon plot seems more than a mere behind the scenes manipulation and more like a full-on investment: it seems the young man actually and sincerely believe he is Aegon Targaryen son of Rhaeghar, which means he's been raised as being so his whole life, which also means that he's been an 'investment' from years ago. Also, the Golden Company, which is said to have never broken a contract, broke a very significant one for the sake of supporting Aegon, so it is more than money driving them. The change in plans, as described in ADWD, seem to be not only in line but give some context to the events of previous books regarding Viserys and Daenerys, that is, they were being used to provide Aegon with a Dothraki cavalry to join the Golden Company, specially since Varys had no problem to sanction the poisoner assasin but not before letting Jorah Mormont know about it (all designed to make khal drogo to get a move on towards going to westeros: if Dany died of poisoning he would want revenge and Jorah would inform him who the guilty party was, if she didn't die, then well, that's what happened, result; also motivation to get to westeros). After khal drogo died, but Dany hatched the all important dragons, we know Illyrio sent guards and ships to retrieve her, but she went her own way, wrecking Illyrio's and Varys's plans. And so they have one final use for her.

Also, Varys has risked his life by returning (if he ever really left) to KL and personally kill Pycelle and Kevan Lannister, seems a bit more invested than his 'typical' whispering and manipulation games.

One last thing, unless you just want chaos for the sake of it (read: moustache bwahaha-twitching villan) the game of thrones is a means to an end and not an end in itself.

Ditocorto, on 24 May 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

see above for the mummer's dragon, she will just see a mummer's dragon somewhere. Even if she reverted to Fire and Blood! that was always about her family more than herself, so again I think she will want to side with Aegon that: looks like a Targaryen, is with Rhaegar's best friend, thinks and acts as a Targaryen (maybe he is, maybe he isn't), is vouched for by Illiryo, which Dany takes in high consideration and thinks is a loyal friend and almost surely will be recognized by the dragons as pureblooded valyrian (Targ or Blackfyre doesn't matter). There may be clues that he isn't a Targ, but we readers have them, not a single characther (with the possible exclusion of Varys and Illiryo). Tyrion saw little boy's clothes? well Aegon lived with Illiryo for a few years before he went living with Connington, now I don't remember the other clues but I doubt anyone, apart from being skeptic of the baby-swap thing, will have a hard time believing Aegon is really Aegon in the books

Well, we were talking about what Daenerys would think not other people, read above for that.

[Quiet Isle]

sarah.jenice, on 01 March 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

I’ve posted this as a comment in the topic about Aegon being the real deal (or not), but it hasn’t gotten too many responses (thanks for your thoughts Apple Martini!), and I think it’s an important clue that we need to consider in our numerous debates of the mystery of Aegon/Young Griff.

When people are debating whether or not Aegon is “the real deal,” I see that Aegon being the mummer’s dragon is often brought up as a point of argument against him.

Two main pieces of evidence are:

1. Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying Ones:

A Clash of Kings Page 706 (Dany Chapter)

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

2. Quaithe’s warning to Dany in Meereen:

“Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

But I think I found another important clue that I didn't realize until my third reread of Clash that Dany is actually the first person to identify her House of the Undying Vision of a cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd as a "mummer's dragon." Those are her exact words, and she is the one who took what she saw and connected it to the phrase "mummer's dragon," not Quaithe. (Previously, I thought Quaithe said that first in Meereen.)

A Clash of Kings Page 875 (Dany Chapter)

Jorah and Dany are discussing Dany’s visions and trying to figure out their meanings and Jorah says:
"A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

I think what Dany says there is so important. She gives the description of the mummer's dragon, and if we add Dany, Aegon and Varys into what she says, Varys (mummer) is using Aegon (mummer's dragon) to give the hero (Dany) something to fight. Does this foreshadow what will happen between them? A battle for the throne or a new Dance with Dragons?

I've asked this before and didn't get an answer, but do those of you who believe Aegon is the mummer's dragon also believe Dany is the hero?

In the vision sequence, she is called the slayer of lies, which further makes it seem like she is the hero in the scenario, but I know a lot of people do not think Dany will be the ultimate hero of the series.

Do you guys think this dialogue is as significant as I do and that it's important Dany first named the mummer’s dragon? Will she identify Aegon as the mummer’s dragon or want an alliance? Will he even want an alliance by the time she gets to Westeros or will he be sitting on the Iron Throne married to a vital political ally.

I really want to hear your thoughts!

  i think varys is a woman, a blackfyre and the mother of aegon.

[Bolivar]

^ it's also crossed my mind that Varys is a woman, maybe even Illyrio's lover.

OP put this in an interesting way. If Dany isn't the hero, it adds to the possibility that Varys is using her for reasons that go beyond the political, and has to do with the Targaryens and the magic in their blood.

[Old-Growth]

blue-eyed onion:  your analysis is good---but just note that she has one final use for Illyrio and Varys, namely to have Drogon roast their fat asses.

[jpreis]

This is the relevant passage, spoken by Qaithe to Daenerys in Book 5:
"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them."

• Pale mare refers to pale horse whose rider warns of the pestilence in Astapor.
  
• Kraken and dark flame refers to Victarion and Moqorro, the red priest who saved Victarion's hand.
  
• Lion refers to Tyrion Lannister.
  
• Griffon refers to Prince Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington, once lord of Griffon's Roost, who raised Rhaegar's son, Aegon, thought to have been murdered as an infant, but saved by Varys.
  
• The sun's son refers to Quentyn Martell, the son of Doran Martell, Lord of Sunspear and Prince of Dorne. The Martell banner is a red sun pierced by a golden spear.
  
• Mummer's dragon may be an allusion to the vision of "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd" that Daenerys had in the House of the Undying. The banner in the vision may fortell the support Prince Aegon garners after he arrives in Westeros. The term mummer's does not imply that Aegon is "fake.".  It has already been well-established that Aegon is the trueborn son of Prince Rhaegar and his wife Princess Elia of Dorne.  In the Epilogue of Book 5 Varys reveals to the dying Kevin Lannister that Aegon lives. Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man.

Quote

Ser Kevan tried to rise, but the strength had left him. He could not feel his legs.

"I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him."

"Aegon?" For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. "Dead. He's dead."

"No." The eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

Edited by jpreis, 04 March 2013 - 03:57 AM.

[bent branch]

sarah.jenice, on 01 March 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

I’ve posted this as a comment in the topic about Aegon being the real deal (or not), but it hasn’t gotten too many responses (thanks for your thoughts Apple Martini!), and I think it’s an important clue that we need to consider in our numerous debates of the mystery of Aegon/Young Griff.

When people are debating whether or not Aegon is “the real deal,” I see that Aegon being the mummer’s dragon is often brought up as a point of argument against him.

Two main pieces of evidence are:

1. Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying Ones:

A Clash of Kings Page 706 (Dany Chapter)

“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd…mother of dragons, slayer of lies”

2. Quaithe’s warning to Dany in Meereen:

“Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”

But I think I found another important clue that I didn't realize until my third reread of Clash that Dany is actually the first person to identify her House of the Undying Vision of a cloth dragon swaying on poles amidst a cheering crowd as a "mummer's dragon." Those are her exact words, and she is the one who took what she saw and connected it to the phrase "mummer's dragon," not Quaithe. (Previously, I thought Quaithe said that first in Meereen.)

A Clash of Kings Page 875 (Dany Chapter)

Jorah and Dany are discussing Dany’s visions and trying to figure out their meanings and Jorah says:
"A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

I think what Dany says there is so important. She gives the description of the mummer's dragon, and if we add Dany, Aegon and Varys into what she says, Varys (mummer) is using Aegon (mummer's dragon) to give the hero (Dany) something to fight. Does this foreshadow what will happen between them? A battle for the throne or a new Dance with Dragons?

I've asked this before and didn't get an answer, but do those of you who believe Aegon is the mummer's dragon also believe Dany is the hero?

In the vision sequence, she is called the slayer of lies, which further makes it seem like she is the hero in the scenario, but I know a lot of people do not think Dany will be the ultimate hero of the series.

Do you guys think this dialogue is as significant as I do and that it's important Dany first named the mummer’s dragon? Will she identify Aegon as the mummer’s dragon or want an alliance? Will he even want an alliance by the time she gets to Westeros or will he be sitting on the Iron Throne married to a vital political ally.

I really want to hear your thoughts!

My interpretation of the "three lies" Dany sees in the HotU is that all three lies are the same lie. The first vision is unquestionably about Stannis. The lie that needs to be slayed about him is that he is the PtwP. Assuming that the second vision is about Aegon, it can also be interpreted as slaying the lie will be about Aegon (real or fake) being the PtwP. I am certain that this claim will be made about Aegon at some point. I really don't understand how Dany is going to have the evidence to prove that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, so I'm not sure how that would be the lie about him that she will slay. Given that the first two lies in this scenario are about individuals who claim or have others claim they are the PtwP, I think the third vision also is about someone who either claims or has the claim made about them that they are the PtwP. I'm not really sure who this third person is, but it would be a reasonable conclusion given the first two.

It is possible that the second vision in the HotU is not about Aegon. There are a couple of things that make me think that it may not be Aegon that Dany is being shown in that scene. The first question I have, is Aegon really that great of threat to Dany that she has to be warned about him twice? He really doesn't seem to be any greater threat to Dany than others she has been warned about so I suspect that only one or neither of the references to the mummer's dragon is about Aegon. The second is the conversation between Dany and Jorah that you have pointed out. It is not credible to me that Jorah, who has been presented to us a widely traveled man, would not know what a mummer's dragon is. Therefore, I think it likely that we are given this conversation as a way to help us interpret the vision. I think it could mean that one lie Dany is to slay is about a false threat. This false threat will draw the hero's attention away from where the real fight is. Who is the hero who is being distracted from the true threat? Dany, it is her vision after all.

[Lummel]

jpreis, on 04 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

...Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man.

Odd.  Varys has reason to lie to Kevan - to make his death hurt more.  Varys has no reason to tell Kevan the truth though.  That is the kind of thing that Bond villains do to in order to try and give some coherence to the plot.

Edited by Lummel, 04 March 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[jpreis]

Lummel, on 04 March 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

Odd.  Varys has reason to lie to Kevan - to make his death hurt more.  Varys has no reason to tell Kevan the truth though.  That is the kind of thing that Bond villains do to in order to try and give some coherence to the plot.

An implausible thesis. It's never been established that Varys is a "villain" or that he has morbid inclinations.Nor did the story even suggest that Varys wanted to make Kevin's death "hurt more." Long before the Epilogue of Book 5, it was already established that Young Griff aka Aegon is the trueborn son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and that he has been raised by Rhaegar's friend Jon Connington, the former lord of Griiffon Roost. That Aegon lives was even forshadowed in the House of the Undying. And even if Varys wanted to make Kevin's death "hurt more" (what a childish notion), why would he go about this by inventing a story about Aegon? How would that idea pop into his head? And how would such the story make Kevin's death "hurt more"?

This quote from the Epilogue of Book 5 challenges the notion the Varys wanted to make Kevan's death "hurt more": “I am sorry.” Varys wrung his hands. “You are suffering, I know, yet here I stand going on like some silly old woman. Time to make an end to it.”

Edited by jpreis, 05 March 2013 - 04:40 AM.

[StarkDragon]

One man's hero is another man's villain.

[Lummel]

jpreis, on 05 March 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

An implausible thesis...

OK.  Let me put it to you this way.

Varys wants Kevan dead for his own purposes.  Those purposes will involve a lot of deaths, most of whom would in the ordinary scheme of things be utterly unaffected by who the king happens to be.

Multiple means of killing Kevan are open to Varys.  He chooses deliberately a method with a view to its public impact and to how the survivors will judge it.  By killing Kevan Varys has achieved his political objective.  There is absolutely no necessity to talk to Kevan at all.

Despite this Varys chooses to talk.  Kevan is going to die and Varys isn't after any information from Kevan, the only point of telling him anything is to hurt him.  And it makes his death hurt more very simply, Varys is telling Kevan that not only he will die but that everything he and his brother worked for is going to be undone and overthrown.  There is no comfort in what Varys is telling him, truth or lie that message is going to hurt him because the implication of a Targaryen return is that House Lannister is going to be brought down and all Lannisters will pay for Tywin's involvement in the usurpation.

If by contrast we assume that Varys just wants to tell Kevan the truth and does not want to hurt him then we can conclude that Varys has no theory of mind and is unable to comprehend how Kevan will react to his words.  That really isn't supported by the rest of the text in which Varys shows repeatedly he is well aware of how people will react and the conclusions they will reach (eg Tyrion I ACOK and Tyrion XII ACOK).

The other conclusion is that GRRM is breaching the fourth wall and writing directly to the reader, but this is redundant. The reader knows more about Aegon than Varys reveals in this speech.

The only other alternative is that everything that Varys says is calibrated for the little birds who are in the room with him.

[Sun]

Quote

"A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."

Oh I think Dany's statement is foreshadowing, but not necessarily in the way you posit, OP. By her own words Dany tells us that in drama, heroes are the ones who fight dragons.  The only person who comes with literal dragons in this story, so far anyway, is Dany. Our heroes, imo, will be those characters who oppose her.

As to Dany fighting Aegon, I think that is the odds favourite at this point.

Edited by Sun, 05 March 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[jpreis]

Cheese Pudding, on 25 May 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Kraken + Dark Flame = Victarion and Moqorro, trying to reach Danny and get her married with Vic. They will fail.
Lion + Griffin = Tyrion and Connington, will try convince her to marry "Aegon". They will fail.
Sun's sun + Mummer's Dragon = Quentyn and "Aegon", her other husband contenders. Quentyn has failed, Aegon will.

That's why they are in pairs.

But Aegon and Connington (the former lord of Griffon Roost) are in Westeros raising the banners for Aegon, not in Slaver's Bay trying to woo Daenerys. And as the eldest surviving son of Prince Rhaegar, Aegon has a stronger claim to the Iron Throne than Daenerys or Viserys ever did.

"Mummer's dragon" is the term Daenerys herself used (before she ever heard it from Qaithe) when she was describing her visions in the House of the Undying to Jorah Mormont. She explained that she meant "a cloth dragon on poles...mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."   The narrative of her vision stated that  "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." In other words, what she's called a "mummer dragon" is actually a banner of support, probably for Aegon.

Whether any of the "pairs" you identify succeed or fail was not conveyed in Qaithe's message.  Her message about the "pairs" was not a prediction of anyone's success or failure. It was a warning: "Trust none of them."

So the term "mummer's dragon" does not refer to Varys, nor does it imply that Aegon is "fake." On the contrary, his authenticity has been well-established.

Edited by jpreis, 05 March 2013 - 05:33 AM.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Lummel, on 05 March 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

OK.  Let me put it to you this way.

Varys wants Kevan dead for his own purposes.  Those purposes will involve a lot of deaths, most of whom would in the ordinary scheme of things be utterly unaffected by who the king happens to be.

Multiple means of killing Kevan are open to Varys.  He chooses deliberately a method with a view to its public impact and to how the survivors will judge it.  By killing Kevan Varys has achieved his political objective.  There is absolutely no necessity to talk to Kevan at all.

Despite this Varys chooses to talk.  Kevan is going to die and Varys isn't after any information from Kevan, the only point of telling him anything is to hurt him.  And it makes his death hurt more very simply, Varys is telling Kevan that not only he will die but that everything he and his brother worked for is going to be undone and overthrown.  There is no comfort in what Varys is telling him, truth or lie that message is going to hurt him because the implication of a Targaryen return is that House Lannister is going to be brought down and all Lannisters will pay for Tywin's involvement in the usurpation.

If by contrast we assume that Varys just wants to tell Kevan the truth and does not want to hurt him then we can conclude that Varys has no theory of mind and is unable to comprehend how Kevan will react to his words.  That really isn't supported by the rest of the text in which Varys shows repeatedly he is well aware of how people will react and the conclusions they will reach (eg Tyrion I ACOK and Tyrion XII ACOK).

The other conclusion is that GRRM is breaching the fourth wall and writing directly to the reader, but this is redundant. The reader knows more about Aegon than Varys reveals in this speech.

The only other alternative is that everything that Varys says is calibrated for the little birds who are in the room with him.

I believe this is the reason. I don't think it is redundant. We already know about Aegon, but here Varys expresses an opinion. We learn about Varys. He reveals his possible motivations and prompts us to think about his view. Or not

jpreis, on 05 March 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

But Aegon and Connington (the former lord of Griffon Roost) are in Westeros raising the banners for Aegon, not in Slaver's Bay trying to woo Daenerys. And as the eldest surviving son of Prince Rhaegar, Aegon has a stronger claim to the Iron Throne than Daenerys or Viserys ever did.

"Mummer's dragon" is the term Daenerys herself used (before she ever heard it from Qaithe) when she was describing her visions in the House of the Undying to Jorah Mormont. She explained that she meant "a cloth dragon on poles...mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight."   The narrative of her vision stated that  "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." In other words, what she's called a "mummer dragon" is actually a banner of support, probably for Aegon.

Whether any of the "pairs" you identify succeed or fail was not conveyed in Qaithe's message.  Her message about the "pairs" was not a prediction of anyone's success or failure. It was a warning: "Trust none of them."

So the term "mummer's dragon" does not refer to Varys, nor does it imply that Aegon is "fake." On the contrary, his authenticity has been well-established.

Very interesting interpretation!!!

[jpreis]

Of course, Varys wanted to kill Kevan. That's why he lured him to the Pycelle's chambers under false pretenses and sunk a quarrel in his chest. It's no secret why Varys wanted Kevan dead. Varys explained why to Kevan, and contrary to what you suppose, it was not to inflict pain or make it "hurt more":

"Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done for malice. It was done for the realm. For the children...There are many like you, good men in service to bad causes...but you were threatening to undo all the queen’s good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen’s rule. So…”

Varys's goal is to set the realm right by eroding the support and power of the Lannisters and putting Aegon on the Iron Throne. Varys has been plotting this for 15 years.

Naturally, Varys chose a method of killing that was consistent with that goal: “I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

Of course Varys talks. This is the nature of the Varys character.

Edited by jpreis, 05 March 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[jpreis]

Sun, on 05 March 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Oh I think Dany's statement is foreshadowing, but not necessarily in the way you posit, OP. By her own words Dany tells us that in drama, heroes are the ones who fight dragons.  The only person who comes with literal dragons in this story, so far anyway, is Dany. Our heroes, imo, will be those characters who oppose her.

As to Dany fighting Aegon, I think that is the odds favourite at this point.

The foreshadowing of Aegon was not in Daenerys's statements, but in her visions in the House of the Undying.

She called the "cloth dragon on poles" a "mummer's dragon" simply because it reminded her of the kind of prop that "mummers" (what we call "actors") use in their "follies" (what we call "comedy skits") to give the "heroes" (the enacted heroes in the skits, not actual heroes) something to fight." But the narrative of her vision stated that  "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." Note that the crowd was cheering, not laughing. This suggests that the "cloth dragon on poles" was actually a heraldic banner, not a prop used in a comedy skit.

Bear in mind that even at the end of Book 5, Daenerys still does not know Aegon lives. She still believes she is the only legitimate surviving heir to the Iron Throne. In fact, Aegon's claim is stronger.

Edited by jpreis, 05 March 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[Lewton]

jpreis, on 04 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

  In the Epilogue of Book 5 Varys reveals to the dying Kevin Lannister that Aegon lives. Varys had no reason to lie to a dying man.

But did he lie, even if Aegon is fake? Never does he say that Aegon is the Aegon Targaryen. Of course he knows that is what Kevan assumes when he hears the name Aegon, but that doesn't mean Varys lied, just that he didn't feel the need to start correcting him.

No matter is Aegon Aegon Targaryen, Aegon Blackfyre, Aegon Son-of-Illyrio, or Aegon Random-Son-of-Some-Whore, he is Aegon and has been raised to rule since he was a child, and that is all Varys said. There's a difference between lying to a dying man, and not bothering to correct a misconception (Kevan says Aegon is dead, Varys says Aegon is very much alive, which is true, whether he is real or fake. He might just not be talking about the same Aegon Kevan has in mind).

Edited by Lewton, 05 March 2013 - 06:55 AM.