2353 replies to this topic

[House Targaryen]

It is day 1

19 players remain: Aviendha., Cadsuane Melaidhrin, Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand, Faile Bashere, Galad Damodred, Gawyn Trakand, Lan Mandragoran, Logain Ablar, Loial, Mat Cauthon, Min Farshaw, Moiraine Damodred, Nynaeve al'Meara, Perrin Aybara, Siuan Sanche, Thom Merrilin, Tuon, Verin Mathwin.

10 votes are needed for a conviction or 10 to go to night.

3 votes for Elayne Trakand (Moiraine Damodred, Aviendha., Verin Mathwin)
3 votes for Loial (Mat Cauthon, Elayne Trakand, Gawyn Trakand)
2 votes for Siuan Sanche (Tuon, Min Farshaw)
2 votes for Egwene al'Vere (Cadsuane Melaidhrin, Galad Damodred)
2 votes for Gawyn Trakand (Lan Mandragoran, Nynaeve al'Meara)
2 votes for Moiraine Damodred (Egwene al'Vere, Siuan Sanche)
1 vote for Nynaeve al'Meara (Faile Bashere)
1 vote for Cadsuane Melaidhrin (Logain Ablar)
1 vote for Logain Ablar (Perrin Aybara)

2 players have not voted: Thom Merrilin, Loial.

[House Ashford]

Gawyn Trakand, on 06 March 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Sure. I really like her reasoning for unvoting Matt. Acknoweldging that her reasoning for her vote initially was weak due to the situation is something that I don't see mafia doing too often. It leads towards them losing the ability to camp on a vote and forces them to find a new person to push towards and new reasoning behind a vote that they have to contrive. I also liked the way she handled Logians town read on her - she pointed out how the points are invalid and fairly weak and I see scum more likely to just accept the town read on them.

Do you find it impossible she could be a little intimidated of an early buddying attempt?

[Justin Bieber]

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

That's a town tell, surely?

Regarding Galad claiming to leave, and then posting a while later - can you elaborate on why it strikes you as townish?

6 posts, 5 of which are 5 words or less - elaboration on any of your reads would be good, really.

[Justin Bieber]

Egwene al, on 05 March 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I find Logain's posts towards Tuon early on to be pretty snide, I would probably have reacted poorly to the condescension he was putting out. Just saying.

Are you drawing a conclusion on the alignment of either of them based on this? Seems like a pretty pointless statement otherwise.

[Stint]

Gawyn Trakand, on 06 March 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

*snip*
Nyneaneve:
1. Like most of her town reads though want "Lorial sounds genuine" explained.

To me, Loial sounds like a genuine confused noob, which is not indicative of alignment. So I don't find him suspicious for it.

[Britney Spears]

Eh, I was more just bothered that people were acting like Tuon was totally unreasonable for taking offence at the tone. OOC, it seemed like something that could put a pretty unpleasant feel on the game for her, and I think everyone should be having a good time, not feeling like everyone thinks they are crazy.

That was my motive for posting it, pretty non-play related. I do draw conclusions from it though, I like Tuon more and Logain less. It felt like a cheap attempt to bully and intimidate by Logain, raising himself up by putting other people down. That sort of thing makes him look like an authority and other people possible lynch candidates, almost entirely based off of emotional manipulation. Not a valid scum hunting techniquo, IMO.

[Taylor Swift]

Gawyn Trakand, on 06 March 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

I also liked the way she /

Aviendha

/ handled Logians town read on her - she pointed out how the points are invalid and fairly weak and I see scum more likely to just accept the town read on them.

Two games ago, evil Henry reacted in same way to an innocent read of him.

[Magic Mirror]

Elayne Trakand, on 05 March 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Faile Bashere
-Tried pushing an awful case on Mat early.

Mat Cauthon
-Is accused of being unreasonable for doing a reasonable action.

First of all, I didn't push for a case. I asked Mat a question and then I had to elaborate it because he didn't understand what I asked at first. Seeing people call that a case is really getting on my nerves. I know I'm late to this party, but this post is scummy as hell. You're not really sharing your opinion on us, you're posting information that is only partially true because it's written in an impartial and manipulatory way. Elayne.

My previous vote on Nynaeve al'Meara was in part due to this question:

Nynaeve al, on 06 March 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Before I go, I don't think Siuan answered my earlier question:
why single out my name and Verin's but not Cadsuane, which is in my mind more complex than either?

It seemed like she was soft pushing for Cadsuane. Iirc, she asked her why she thought some names were complicated but not Cadsuane's. So I thought, why would Nynaeve think Cadsuane is a weirder/more complicated name than any of the other names in this round?

Lan Mandragoran, on 05 March 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Going to echo whoever said that they liked your answers, even if they disagreed with you.  That's how I was feeling too.  Then you went and cast a random vote.  Feel like you gave in to Perrin.  What happened to this -

You wanted a good reason, but then you gave into a weak reason.  Explain.

I didn't want to leave a stubborn vote on Mat just because Perrin was pushing me to change it. And I had to change it eventually, so I did. I have to admit, Perrin did have a good point about my vote being useless. But his other points were totally paranoid.

[Britney Spears]

Gawyn Trakand, on 06 March 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

#4. Besides Loial my strongest mafia read right now would probably be Edwede. Her opening post stated that he was pleased that serious matters had been moved towards yet stated no suspicion towards anyone or any real read other than a suggestion for a differently phrased question. Her logic behind Cadsuane being town makes no sense as touched on by other people; stating that scum likely active lurk or post and dash and then stating that scum wouldn't push on town doing such is stating that you don't believe scum would try to fit in to the town or act like they would if they were town, it's a completely illogical argument that reads as an attempt to seem contributive and buddy Cadsuane. Furthermore I despise her vote on Moiraine, it's a push on someone for a playstyle choice; some people elaborate on reads in depth, others just vote their scum reads and it's fairly obvious which one Moriaine is.

I didn't like Tuon implying it was suspicious to check in. It looked like fake scum hunting to me, particularly when there was something I felt was much more relevant to ask about. Maybe Tuon is FM who thought her symp might be signalling her, so didn't want to draw attention to the verse but wanted to get conversation going to check. I wanted to start with a very soft push asking her about it, but RL interfered and when I got back the topic was pretty well moot. And I didn't like the posting of verse in the first place (Yes, Cadsuane, I was implying there was and was looking for coding, because symps have the biggest need to sneakily identify themselves, much more than any power roles), so I wanted to put that out as well.

Cadsuane stuff, I've explained how I see it in my head, if you disagree no amount of rephrasing will change it.

And Moiraine. Really?? You think her playstyle is valid and contributive? You dislike that I want to pressure her for more content? Because this is all we have from her so far.

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Tuon

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Aviendha is totes probtown.

Siuan

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Elayne

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Yes.

Moiraine Damodred, on 05 March 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

That's a town tell, surely?

She's clearly been around, but hasn't given us anything to work with. Putting down a vote without giving any reasoning is very easy to back out of, and easy to come up with whatever the hell explanation you want to later. Not being able to hold people to their votes is not good for town at all. I understand a playstyle of being less chatty, but no real explanations at all? Seriously, I should chalk it up to playstyle and leave it alone? I disagree, sir.

[Carly Rae Jepsen]

Sorry, but I have to leave about three or four hours before the deadline today due to circumstances outside my control.  I may get a chance to check in from my phone for fifteen minutes about half an hour before, but by the time I catch up, I probably won't have time to write a post.

I'm actually annoyed that Gawyn 2.0 showed up with some huge reasonable rereads just as I was thinking of voting Gawyn 1.0 for a stance on Elayne that made no sense and he never explained.   Much of it is null because he could have genuinely had these reads before replacing in, but I'll admit that I find it hard to vote someone whose behaviour is "protown" and is working hard because his predecessor looked scummy.  I want to see how Gawyn reacts when other people are around rather than read his insightful conclusions on others in the game, but Gawyn will probably return after I leave.

And Elayne's catch-up was bad, but I get a weird townish feeling from her defence posts.  I could vote Siuan, but I feel like it's just a halfhearted PoE vote.

Lan, out of curiosity, what do you think of the fact that Egwene admitted to searching for codes in Verin's poem?  I don't think you've ever mentioned Egwene.

I'm also apparently one of the only people in the game who like Logain.  I should look at him to see if I'm missing something, but it's more based on gut than me agreeing with his arguments.

[Deadpool.]

I'll pop in here and there today, but I will be gone the majority of the day.

@Verin:  There was quite a few things you could do, but I'll leave it at there, as it's not worth the argument.  "Scummy" =/= "Scum" and you're not all that "Scummy" atm anyway so it's pointless to argue.

I should be here at deadline, as the votes pile up on me I foresee an incoming comprimise lynch on me.

Meh.

[Carly Rae Jepsen]

Gawyn, can you explain what makes you think I'm CI?  I don't think I've said anything that would be particularly hard to fake as an FM so far.

I'm more confident that Faile is innocent than Logain, for the record.

Nynaeve al, on 06 March 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Galad:

I don't like the "there's one thing that's holding me back". Care to explain on that?
And can you elaborate on the wishy-washy PI-ing them? I don't remember what you're talking about and can't search your posts for it.

I want to see who else notices the "one thing" before I say what it is.  Actually, since I wrote that post, my suspicions of her have weakened somewhat now that she's playing the game rather than writing wishy-washy posts on the sidelines.  I've disagreed with the majority of what she's arguing this game (particularly the self-righteous speeches about "helpful innocent play" to Moiraine and Elayne), but at least she's engaging with people.

The "wishy-washy PI-ing" was me quoting Min's assessment of my post where I say that I think Tuon vs. Logain is probably two innocents bashing heads. (actually, that reminds me he never explained why he found Tuon and Logain more suspicious than me).  Obviously, it was tongue-in-cheek.

Min is hard to read.  I feel like for a player who comes off as brash, he's been somewhat low-key.  (Edit: I'm not explaining what I mean well.)

Edited by Galad Damodred, 06 March 2012 - 10:04 AM.

[Carly Rae Jepsen]

Oh!  Faile, what do you think of Nynaeve's more recent posts?

[Britney Spears]

Hm. Reread the Mat/Faile stuff.

Faile asks why he changed his vote.

Faile Bashere, on 05 March 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Mat Cauthon, why did you change your vote from Galad to Loial?

Mat responds, but doesn't answer the question. Points towards his explanation of the Loial vote, doesn't mention anything about the Galad vote. Joke or not, it bore mention (particularly as he was looking to answer the direct question). This reaction, complete with the minor discrediting at the end, sent up little flags for me, so I was glad to see Faile keep pushing on it.

Mat Cauthon, on 05 March 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Read this post and the next.

I have a hard time believing that you read my vote post but didn't read the part about meaning to vote in the previous post.

I know joke votes are jokey, but putting down a joke vote with a pre-determined serious vote intended to follow immediately afterwards is strange. I would agree that the case there is shaky at best, but Mat's reactions to it didn't strike me as the inno tell a lot of people seem to be seeing. He ignored the question first while pretending to answer, then explained himself believably but not well, if that makes sense.

Mat Cauthon, on 05 March 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I voted Galad because I wanted to. I accused Loial of changing his mind because he did and because I'm a hypocrite. Sound about right?

Then said it's good to be aggressive and get conversation going, snapped off a witty retort to Gawyn's vote on him, and left. How is any of that town-ish?  Definitely on my watch list, I'd like to see a case from him.

[House Ashford]

Egwene al, on 06 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

(Yes, Cadsuane, I was implying there was and was looking for coding, because symps have the biggest need to sneakily identify themselves, much more than any power roles), so I wanted to put that out as well.

Really? You're willing to risk outing a PR on the lookout for a symp? What's the trade-off? Sorry, but I don't see how this helps town.

[Britney Spears]

Galad Damodred, on 06 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I want to see who else notices the "one thing" before I say what it is.  Actually, since I wrote that post, my suspicions of her have weakened somewhat now that she's playing the game rather than writing wishy-washy posts on the sidelines.  I've disagreed with the majority of what she's arguing this game (particularly the self-righteous speeches about "helpful innocent play" to Moiraine and Elayne), but at least she's engaging with people.

I'm not sure where I've sounded self-righteous, please point it out to me. And I haven't told Elayne to have more "helpful innocent play", I've said she looked actively scummy with what I saw as a poor case and bad logic. Her more recent posts looked better though, I've got to run but will try to get back on soon and put together my thoughts there.

Do you disagree that Moiraine's play is not useful for finding scum, or do you agree but don't like me pointing it out? What specifically do you disagree with of what I've said?

[Justin Bieber]

Elayne Trakand, on 05 March 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

If there is a wagon on easy scum, no one should care.  People should only care if it's on easy town.  Which doesn't make sense with the resistance to his wagon.
Also, if you didn't notice, he doesn't seem like an easy target because it's apparent that so many people think he is town and are willing to jump at those who vote him.

Ok. Trying to wrap my head around this whole "easy target" issue. Here's what's bothering me:

If you agree Loial looks terrible and could be FM, AND you think Elayne looks terrible for taking the easy target (seems to be the most common stance, since I don't think anyone has professed a belief that Loial looks particularly town, and Elayne has the most votes atm); Do you really think they're both scum?

If Loial was your FM partner, it's pretty obvious how bad he looks. He might have even expressed off-thread that he doesn't know wtf he's doing and is ready to die. Do you still bus him so blatantly on day 1 when there are so many other potential targets? Or do you hope he can coast by a day or two on the newb card? The answer to this pretty much answers whether it's feasible for them both to be evil. I've bussed the crap out of a partner before, but never on day 1 - this doesn't feel like a bus to me. I think if I were Loial's partner, I wouldn't have even mentioned him up to this point.

So, looking at both individually.

Loial is an admitted newb, but other than that pretty much a non-entity. I think he checked in once or twice last night, but really didn't post anything other than giving me the impression that he's been reading the thread. Newb FM seems slightly more likely than newb town, in my eyes. If he's around and reading, you'd think he'd have something to say about at least one person. Even if it's a weak argument - but I'm not seeing that. It's like he's just thrown his hands up and decided to let his partners do the work.

Back to Elayne and the "easy target" idea. It's valid and everyone agrees her summary post was terribad, but I think on the whole she comes across as pretty genuine. I'm on the fence with her. I'd like to see more of a secondary case on her other scummish reads.

Long and short of it, I think I'd be more inclined to vote Loial today than Elayne. I don't feel overly great about either, but at least Elayne is posting. If she's scum, we'll only get more to work with on her the more she posts. I'm not so sure that's the case with Loial. If he keeps up the hands-off lurking, he's going to be a constant distraction. I'd rather lynch him and be done with it, unless he comes out with something spectacular in the next few hours.

[Britney Spears]

I looked for PR codes and clues and didn't see anything likely, also figure a symp is much more likely to be leaving codes than anyone else. The trade-off is finding a symp vs. very little risk, as far as I could see.

ETA: I'd be pretty surprised if most people weren't already doing at least a cursory scan for codes there, me being perhaps more clear in pointing to it wasn't really giving up super secret information.

Edited by Egwene al'Vere, 06 March 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Magic Mirror]

Galad Damodred, on 06 March 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Oh!  Faile, what do you think of Nynaeve's more recent posts?

I liked them in general.

[House Targaryen]

Thom must have gotten drunk at the inn, so he'll be replaced by his clone Thom as of now.