422 replies to this topic

[Ravenhair]

Damn my whole post just disappeared.

[Fragile Bird]

Ravenhair, on 05 March 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

What would counsel would I give to Cersei?  Divorce and going to the police, just because her allegations would be true and filing criminal charges against him would put her in a great negotiating stance, especially when added to the divorce petition.  That's why I don't do family law; I stick with corporate litigation.

Funny you should say that....yup me too.  After 30 years I still can't smell popcorn without remembering the evening I went to pick up a client who was running away from her husband because he would get stoned and beat her, and as I stood by my car someone in the neighbourhood was making popcorn....

Edit Corporate law, no litigation!

Edited by Fragile Bird, 05 March 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Ravenhair]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Whoa. clearly the fact that they're married does have some baring on the expectation of consent.

Also, let be realistic.  Robert was never going to be happy with any woman and certainly not Lyanna Stark.  She probably would've killed him, or just move back to winterfell.

I agree that Robert was never going to be happy with Lyanna; he just thought he was.  

Spousal rape laws nowadays are such that marriage has little or no bearing on consent; it did not used to be this way.

[Dracarya]

Ravenhair, on 05 March 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I agree that Robert was never going to be happy with Lyanna; he just thought he was.  

Spousal rape laws nowadays are such that marriage has little or no bearing on consent; it did not used to be this way.

Key word: nowadays.

Also, completely irrelevant: lawyers here, are any of you from the UK by any chance?

[Nukelavee]

Ok- so, does Robert's behaviour excuse Cersei's other actions?  or justify them?

Or would our 12 angry posters convict Robert, only to see Cersei wisked off to a murder trial, plus plus?

[The King in the South]

Nukelavee, on 05 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Ok- so, does Robert's behaviour excuse Cersei's other actions?  or justify them?

Or would our 12 angry posters convict Robert, only to see Cersei wisked off to a murder trial, plus plus?

What does that have to do with anything else? You're comparing apples and oranges. No one is saying Cersei is some innocent person, but that's not what is being discussed. Stop bringing in useless details to the topic. Robert wasn't abusing Cersei because she gave Falyse to Qyburn.

[Nukelavee]

Tell you what, King, how about you not leap to conclusions about what I am posting?

I never said anything about Cersei's crimes excusing any crime Robert hasn't been proven to commit, I asked if we felt Robert's actions could be used as a defense to save Cersei from facing the music.

Because, you know, if you want to continue with the stalemate, we lack the proof Cersei was actually abused.  All we have is the word of somebody who will justify anything in order to avoid her responsibility for situations.

That better?

[The King in the South]

Nukelavee, on 05 March 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Tell you what, King, how about you not leap to conclusions about what I am posting?

I never said anything about Cersei's crimes excusing any crime Robert hasn't been proven to commit, I asked if we felt Robert's actions could be used as a defense to save Cersei from facing the music.

Because, you know, if you want to continue with the stalemate, we lack the proof Cersei was actually abused.  All we have is the word of somebody who will justify anything in order to avoid her responsibility for situations.

That better?

Your post was offtopic and irrelavent to the discussion, and thus I'm going to call it such. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but it's not really pertinent to this thread when we have others that discuss exactly that. To anwser your question though, no it's not, but it does shed some light as to why Cersei may have done several of her more heinous actions.

Now regarding your next point, are you serious?

Cersei was abused, plain and simple. We don't just have her word, we have it from the viewpoint of Ned as well as others that Robert has abused her, and it is referenced on several other occasions. The question is whether or not he raped her.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The King in the South, on 05 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Your post was offtopic and irrelavent to the discussion, and thus I'm going to call it such. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but it's not really pertinent to this thread when we have others that discuss exactly that. To anwser your question though, no it's not, but it does shed some light as to why Cersei may have done several of her more heinous actions.

Now regarding your next point, are you serious?

Cersei was abused, plain and simple. We don't just have her word, we have it from the viewpoint of Ned as well as others that Robert has abused her, and it is referenced on several other occasions. The question is whether or not he raped her.

Whoa boop boop boop.  back it up.  I wouldn't call Robert "honoring" Cersei abuse anymore than I would call Cersei "honoring" Ned abuse.  Or Arya honoring Hotpie abuse.  Or Arya honoring Joffrey abuse.  Or Arya honoring Lem-Lemoncloak.  Or Arya honoring Sansa.   I mean the point is, I did worse than that when I was 6, lets not go over board with the poor Cersei talk.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 05 March 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[mediocre cheese]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Whoa boop boop boop.  back it up.  I wouldn't call Robert "honoring" Cersei abuse anymore than I would call Cersei "honoring" Ned abuse.  Or Arya honoring Hotpie abuse.  Or Arya honoring Joffrey abuse.  Or Arya honoring Lem-Lemoncloak.  Or Arya honoring Sansa.   I mean the point is, I did worse than that when I was 6, lets not go over board with the poor Cersei talk.

Is this serious? I feel this must be a joke or something right? A 6'6 adult man hitting a vastly smaller woman so hard she is knocked off her feet is comparable to the actions of a 9 year old child? You can't really mean this, I hope.

Edited by mediocre cheese, 05 March 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Whoa boop boop boop.  back it up.  I wouldn't call Robert "honoring" Cersei abuse anymore than I would call Cersei "honoring" Ned abuse.  Or Arya honoring Hotpie abuse.  Or Arya honoring Joffrey abuse.  Or Arya honoring Lem-Lemoncloak.  Or Arya honoring Sansa.   I mean the point is, I did worse than that when I was 6, lets not go over board with the poor Cersei talk.

I would call it abuse when a man hits a women who is vastly smaller and physically weaker than him. The fact that you think that is comparable to a a little girl pushing her sister is down right disheartening and a bit disgusting.
And I wasn't even quoting you to begin with btw.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

mediocre cheese, on 05 March 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Is this serious? I feel this must be a joke or something right? A 6'6 adult man hitting a vastly smaller woman so hard she is knocked off her feet is comparable to the actions of a 9 year old child? You can't really mean this, I hope.

The King in the South, on 05 March 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

I would call it abuse when a man hits a women who is vastly smaller and physically weaker than him. The fact that you think that is comparable to a a little girl pushing her sister is down right disheartening and a bit disgusting.
And I wasn't even quoting you to begin with btw.

Tut tut now. My modern sensibilities taught me long ago that men and women are equal.  Robert happens to be bigger than Cersei.  Like Grinn is bigger than Jon Snow, like Cersei is bigger than Tyrion, like Brandon Stark is bigger than Littlefinger, like Brienne is bigger than Jamie. I won't have it said its more or less wrong to inflict violence upon someone because of their gender.  That would be wrong.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 05 March 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[Baitac]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

I see.  So all Robert needs to do not be be guilty of rape is have sex with his wife without making any physical contact.

Also I never said what Cersei described wasn't consistent with rape.  Lots of things are consistent with rape. If you're into bondage and have ligature marks on your wrists, that's consistent with rape.  That doesn't mean you were raped.  If we were talking about two strangers, or even two non-married acquaintances then I would simply call it rape because there's no reason to suppose consent exists.  In those cases I would agree that the books give us sufficient information to classify this specific situation as rape.  

That being said, you're begging the question.  Who said Cersei doesn't have any recourse? She's probably been the most powerful person in the 7 kingdoms since she married Robert.  If not, second only to Jon Arryn.  I don't think she has no recourse.  I don't think she's afraid of Robert.  The problem I have, is that as I mentioned above, I do not believe Cersei deserves a special protection from violence because she's a woman.  Cersie is perfectly happy to hit people when she feels like it and I have no issue with Robert hitting her.  No more than I have an issue with Robert crushing Rheagar to death.  If Robert decided to kill Cersei, I wouldn't have any problem with that except to ask what took him so long. And I also don't take issue with Cersei killing Robert, he was in her way and too stupid to live.

The only thing I am taking issue with is that Robert used physical violence to force Cersei to submit to him for the purposes of his sexual gratification.  And that, I do not believe, we have evidence of.  I don't think Robert is a character who would intentionally engage in such an activity.  Which leads me to believe that Cersei never told him she didn't want to have sex with him.  Within the context of their marriage I can't call that rape. I think that in order for it to be Rape would require a more cruel and sadistic than the likes of Robert Baratheon.  If Cersei didn't want to sleep with Robert I believe she had complete freedom to do that.

The answer to your first question is whaa? I was trying to differentiate assault from battery. You don't need to touch someone in order to assault them, but you do in order to have a battery charge. I am glad you agree that Cersei's description is consistent with rape. When you said: "If you're into bondage..." then, you are INTO bondage. This is consensual. "I don't believe that Cersei deserves a special protection because she is a woman." Goodness, gracious, we ALL need to be protected from violence as people. Also, you don't need to be sadistic and cruel in order to rape someone, you just have to force yourself on someone sexually. Nice Robert was capable of being a thug as much as evil (and she IS) Cersei is capable of being victimized.

[Winter's Knight]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Tut tut now. My modern sensibilities taught me long ago that men and women are equal.  Robert happens to be bigger than Cersei.  Like Grinn is bigger than Jon Snow, like Cersei is bigger than Tyrion, like Brandon Stark is bigger than Littlefinger, like Brienne is bigger than Jamie. I won't have it said its more or less wrong to inflict violence upon someone because of their gender.  That would be wrong.

I am dumbfounded by this.

If Person X is significantly stronger than person Y AND in a position of power with respect to Y and hits them, it counts as physical abuse-as it did with Robert and Cersei.

Arya pushing over her sister is hardly the same as a grown man and noted warrior assaulting a woman who is not only smaller than him  but also brought up sheltered and unable to defend herself.

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 05 March 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Tut tut now. My modern sensibilities taught me long ago that men and women are equal.  Robert happens to be bigger than Cersei.  Like Grinn is bigger than Jon Snow, like Cersei is bigger than Tyrion, like Brandon Stark is bigger than Littlefinger, like Brienne is bigger than Jamie. I won't have it said its more or less wrong to inflict violence upon someone because of their gender.  That would be wrong.

It has nothing to do with sex. I'd say the exact same thing if Brienne was beating up Podrick or someone else smaller than her.

The fact is Robert is a big and powerful well Cersei is a slim and physically weak; not only that, in these cases Cersei is completely unable to defend herself. You really have a disturbing set of ideals if you think this is not abuse but akin to two little children playfighting with each other.

[Keep Shelly in Athens]

ChromeWeasel, on 05 March 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

It's going off the deep end if you think that the King in a medieval setting should know he should ask his wife to have sex and that you think it's an issue that he hasn't been taught to ask his wife for sex. That's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, even in the modern world.

If I'm trying to understand everyday life as it is lived in a medieval setting, I would never expect that. Trying to imagine "what its like" to be that person in that time period is one thing. If I was GRRM, writing from Robert's point of view, I wouldn't try to inhabit the mindset of a modern-day person.  Nor would I say to myself "lulz, this guy is a dolt and a rapist, I'm going to think like one when I write his chapter!" In this mindset, avoiding anachronisms is important. Likewise, if I was an archaeologist trying to understand lived experience in the past, my job would not involve passing moral judgement.

BUT if I'm writing a critical analysis of sex and power in the series, and I'm trying to understand how our concepts of "entitlement" and "ownership" are informed by the past, then yes, I can expect a modicum of human decency even when structures empower men to claim what's "theirs." No anthropologist, historian, or archaeologist is a complete cultural relativist.

Moreover, what year is the cut off when we can expect better of men? It was only in 1986 that the first woman legally charged her husband with marital rape. Should I give men in 1960 a pass? What if that man was a family member of mine? I can't say "Well, you know, he was just doing what everyone else did at the time." I can expect people in the past to not do bad things. Even though eugenics and white supremacy were dominant ideas in Germany in the 1930's, I can expect Hitler to know that he was a total nut.

The fact that other men in the series do challenge customs and laws (notably, Jon and Dany) shows that Martin recognizes that people in the past have agency. Culture is inventive, not fixed. Sojourner Truth, speaking in 1856 had ideas about feminism that were "ahead of her time," since white feminists ignored her observations in the 1970's. History isn't a linear progression. People in the past had a more enlightened understanding of many social problems today. So I don't think I'm in the deep end here when I say Robert could have asked Cersei if they wanted to have happy fuck times.

Edited by Keep Shelly in Athens, 05 March 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

Keep Shelly in Athens, on 05 March 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

If I'm trying to understand everyday life as it is lived in a medieval setting, I would never expect that. Trying to imagine "what its like" to be that person in that time period is one thing. If I was GRRM, writing from Robert's point of view, I wouldn't try to inhabit the mindset of a modern-day person.  Nor would I say to myself "lulz, this guy is a dolt and a rapist, I'm going to think like one when I write his chapter!" In this mindset, avoiding anachronisms is important. Likewise, if I was an archaeologist trying to understand lived experience in the past, my job would not involve passing moral judgement.

BUT if I'm writing a critical analysis of sex and power in the series, and I'm trying to understand how our concepts of "entitlement" and "ownership" are informed by the past, then yes, I can expect a modicum of human decency even when structures empower men to claim what's "theirs." No anthropologist, historian, or archaeologist is a complete cultural relativist.

Moreover, what year is the cut off when we can expect better of men? It was only in 1986 that the first woman legally charged her husband with marital rape. Should I give men in 1960 a pass? What if that man was a family member of mine? I can't say "Well, you know, he was just doing what everyone else did at the time." I can expect people in the past to not do bad things. Even though eugenics and white supremacy were dominant ideas in Germany in the 1930's, I can expect Hitler to know that he was a total nut.

The fact that other men in the series do challenge customs and laws (notably, Jon and Dany) shows that Martin recognizes that people in the past have agency. Culture is inventive, not fixed. Sojourner Truth, speaking in 1856 had ideas about feminism that were "ahead of her time," since white feminists ignored her observations in the 1970's. History isn't a linear progression. People in the past had a more enlightened understanding of many social problems today. So I don't think I'm in the deep end here when I say Robert could have asked Cersei if they wanted to have happy fuck times.

I'd just like to add that Robert himself does feel that he is wrong and tries to use his inebriated  state as an excuse.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Baitac, on 05 March 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

The answer to your first question is whaa? I was trying to differentiate assault from battery. You don't need to touch someone in order to assault them, but you do in order to have a battery charge. I am glad you agree that Cersei's description is consistent with rape. When you said: "If you're into bondage..." then, you are INTO bondage. This is consensual. "I don't believe that Cersei deserves a special protection because she is a woman." Goodness, gracious, we ALL need to be protected from violence as people. Also, you don't need to be sadistic and cruel in order to rape someone, you just have to force yourself on someone sexually. Nice Robert was capable of being a thug as much as evil (and she IS) Cersei is capable of being victimized.

i don't think robert was nice anymore.  well i never thought he was, nice, just that he was harmless. Oh i dunno you need to be fairly sadistic to rape someone knowing that you're doing it.  you could argue someone like robert doesn't.  The idea that we all need protection is a very 21st century idea. But that sentiment doesn't leave much of interest left in the game of thrones.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Winterbreath, on 05 March 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

I am dumbfounded by this.

If Person X is significantly stronger than person Y AND in a position of power with respect to Y and hits them, it counts as physical abuse-as it did with Robert and Cersei.

Arya pushing over her sister is hardly the same as a grown man and noted warrior assaulting a woman who is not only smaller than him  but also brought up sheltered and unable to defend herself.

Yeah but what about Arya and Hotpie?  I don't think anyone deserves to be abused solely for the enjoyment of another. But that doesn't mean I would consider it wrong for Cersei to murder Robert or for Robert to murder Cersei solely for the sake of their personal advancement. Otherwise, it mean it really defeats the point of the game of thrones. Robert was stronger than Cersei, but it didn't save him in the end.

[Ravenhair]

Fire&Blood, on 05 March 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Key word: nowadays.

Also, completely irrelevant: lawyers here, are any of you from the UK by any chance?

Are you asking if your question is irrelevant?  Or are you stating that the law is?  I think the law is relevant in terms of a discussion about rape, whether in the UK or US, or make-believe Westeros, where even they have a justiciar (albeit a lame-ass one) and some concept of what constitutes a crime.