103 replies to this topic

[OnionAhaiReborn]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I thought it was quite clear. Aegon and his sisters used the dragons to conquer and unite the seven kingdoms. No one is strong enough to go against the Field of Fire. This would stop the other claimants from tearing the country apart even further, as they would unite under the ruler with the dragons. What about this is so difficult to understand? Jon Snow, Stannis, Cersei, Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy, "Aegon" ... none of them have the power to unite the realm. Whoever has the dragons has the power to unite Westeros.

The thing is that Aegon the conqueror didn't just have Westeros rally around him and his dragons, he had to fight. And he also had huge dragons. Dany is going to show up with little Dragons and not have enough time to fight everyone and also go fight the Others. Why will all of Westeros bow to her and her tiny dragons when she couldn't get a couple of cities in Slaver's Bay do it? She's going to have to fight. Doubtless, the dragons will be useful for that, but I wouldn't say it's a given that the Seven Kingdoms will unite around her.

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

I don't think this has been officially stated. We know that dragonglass kills Others but does not kill wights. Fire kills wights, but we don't know if it kills Others. I don't see why it wouldn't.

I am also of the mind that dragon fire would probably kill an Other. I know Sam reads in one of his books that the Others don't like fire, although that doesn't go so far as to say that it kills them. Still, my best guess is that dragon fire would probably do the trick.

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

In addition I wouldn't call the theory that the dragons are Lightbringer "obvious". Is it obvious for anyone who's read the books in as much detail as we have? Probably. And yet a lot of posters on this board still haven't considered the idea. Most people who are casual readers of the books are probably still waiting for a red sword (like a lot of posters here).

It is pretty obvious. Possibly slightly less obvious than thinking Dany is AA, but still pretty obvious. Saying this as a person who figured out exactly zero theories on my own, I was able to put together the obvious ways that Dany could fulfill AA and the dragons could be lightbringer. And then somewhere around the middle of book two I was like, well ok it can't be her then. We can't seriously be reading book after book of this when the ending- AzorADany swooping in on her Lightbringer/dragons to melt some Others and save everything- is already so clear.

[Warhammer]

Dany isn't going to come over (if she does) and be all like hey guys I'm the Queen, cool?

I think Dragons could unite Westeros, but most likely against the person who has the dragons.  Dany wants to "lay waste to cities" I'm sure that will go over real well with the small folk.

Dragon eats child, no problem just disband court for the day...

Her solutions are not "real solutions" flipping master/slave relationships just creates new masters and new slaves.

Not to mention, I imagine Dany ruling would rely on people being "good" by nature and wanting to work hard for a united Westeros.  Utopian societies don't work and no one, especially in a male-dominated society is going to bend knee to a little girl with a lizard.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Warhammer, on 05 March 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

I think Dragons could unite Westeros, but most likely against the person who has the dragons.  Dany wants to "lay waste to cities" I'm sure that will go over real well with the small folk.

Dragon eats child, no problem just disband court for the day...

This is a really important point. It's strongly implied that once that Targ's started keeping their dragons locked up in the dragon pit in KL, they got weaker and weaker until eventually they couldn't keep them alive past a young age or even hatch more. The captivity was what did it. If you chain a dragon, you kill it.

The clear meaning of this is that dragons are conquerors, but not rulers. They're made for destroying and devouring, not uniting and ruling. If they're not laying waste to something, they shrivel and die.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 05 March 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[PatrickStormborn]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

The thing is that Aegon the conqueror didn't just have Westeros rally around him and his dragons, he had to fight. And he also had huge dragons. Dany is going to show up with little Dragons and not have enough time to fight everyone and also go fight the Others. Why will all of Westeros bow to her and her tiny dragons when she couldn't get a couple of cities in Slaver's Bay do it? She's going to have to fight. Doubtless, the dragons will be useful for that, but I wouldn't say it's a given that the Seven Kingdoms will unite around her.

Little dragons? Drogon is big enough for Dany to ride, and he was big enough to kill 200 people on his own with no help from Dany or the other two dragons. If Viserion and Rhaegal had've been there with their own riders, I imagine that they could have killed at least 1000 people between them. You also must remember that, if the five year gap was still in place, the dragons would be about six years old.

When Dany arrived at Slaver's Bay, the dragons were tiny. So there is a huge difference.

I'd like to clarify that I'm not saying the dragons definitely will unite the seven kingdoms. What I am saying is that none of the other rulers have the power to do so (Aegon could probably get the South, but definitely not the North). Hopefully the dragons will scare the other leaders (or the soldiers themselves) into submission.

Quote

I am also of the mind that dragon fire would probably kill an Other. I know Sam reads in one of his books that the Others don't like fire, although that doesn't go so far as to say that it kills them. Still, my best guess is that dragon fire would probably do the trick.

I'm not sure if I believe that fire is the best weapon against the Others. All I know is that fire is a good weapon against pretty much anything, so I'd be surprised if it didn't at least hurt the Others.

Quote

It is pretty obvious. Possibly slightly less obvious than thinking Dany is AA, but still pretty obvious. Saying this as a person who figured out exactly zero theories on my own, I was able to put together the obvious ways that Dany could fulfill AA and the dragons could be lightbringer. And then somewhere around the middle of book two I was like, well ok it can't be her then. We can't seriously be reading book after book of this when the ending- AzorADany swooping in on her Lightbringer/dragons to melt some Others and save everything- is already so clear.

Like I've said, I don't think it's particularly obvious. Just take a look at the views of more casual fans. Or look around this very forum.

I figured out R+L=J on my first read of AGOT, but I'd never call it obvious.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 05 March 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Revan Baratheon]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

The thing is that Aegon the conqueror didn't just have Westeros rally around him and his dragons, he had to fight. And he also had huge dragons.
Dany is going to show up with little Dragons and not have enough time to fight everyone and also go fight the Others. Why will all of Westeros bow to her and her tiny dragons when she couldn't get a couple of cities in Slaver's Bay do it? She's going to have to fight. Doubtless, the
dragons will be useful for that, but I wouldn't say it's a given that the Seven Kingdoms will unite around her.




It is pretty obvious. Possibly slightly less obvious than thinking Dany is AA, but still pretty obvious. Saying this as a person who figured out exactly zero theories on my own, I was able to put together the obvious ways that Dany could fulfill
AA and the dragons could be lightbringer. And then somewhere around the middle of book two I was like, well ok it can't be her then. We can't
seriously be reading book after book of this when the ending- AzorADany swooping in on her Lightbringer/dragons to melt some Others and save everything- is already so clear.

Yea but uve gotta take into consideration the following facts:
1)Aegon the conqueror had to fight king/alliance of kings(reach and rock) at their full strength,at a time when westeros was not plagued by multiple wars,starvation,genocide,bankruptcy etc.
2)Aegon the conqueror had a very small army,he did not have the benifit of 10k unsullied and (possibly Jhaqo's khalasar)
3)Aegon the Conqueror arrived at a time when dragons were inconspicious.No one knew how powerful they are and how they can fuck up(burn)4000 men and one king hehe..
4)Aegon the Conqueror didnt have to recover a throne,he had to make one,which is considerably harder

So basically all dany needs to do is arrive with DRAGONS,once westerosi see them they will piss themselves trying to bend their knee to her.Never mind that the dragons arent fully grown,the THOUGHT of them burning another 4k men will motivate the westerosi to accept dany.Add to that her army,westeros's current condition,her claim etc. And there u have it. Danerys The Reconqueror!
(yes i know "aegon the 6th" and dorne might be a bigger threat but aegon dosent have dragons which will be bad for morale and dorne will probably ditch him for dany(especially if he turns out to be a blackfyre) )



Yea it is pretty obvious .I was actually quite suprised that no one had already made a thread on this theory.The closest one was about LB being the horn that summoned dragons.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Little dragons? Drogon is big enough for Dany to ride, and he was big enough to kill 200 people on his own with no help from Dany or the other two dragons. If Viserion and Rhaegal had've been there with their own riders, I imagine that they could have killed at least 1000 people between them. You also must remember that, if the five year gap was still in place, the dragons would be about six years old.

Ok the point is, dragons can be killed. And Dany's dragons are not fully grown, Balerion the Black Dread they are not. If she sends them into a real battle, against a force the size of the Western/Reach alliance at the Field of Fire, there is a good chance that her juvenile dragons will be killed instead of destroying everything. Let them kill their 1000 between them and then die against the one thousandth and first they face. They're not big enough yet to cow Dany's enemies into submission. And I don't have to remember anything about the five year gap, because it is not in place.

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Like I've said, I don't think it's particularly obvious. Just take a look at the views of more casual fans. Or look around this very forum.

I figured out R+L=J on my first read of AGOT, but I'd never call it obvious.

I would say it is more obvious than R+L=J (and also likely false, unlike R+L=J), because the text dwells much more on AA and lightbringer than it does on Jon's parentage. The AA prophecy comes up again and again, I don't see how someone could fail to see the way the prophecy fits Dany. And then Aemon outright says it's Dany. If that's not obvious, what is?

[Revan Baratheon]

Omfg have i inadvertently become a dany fan

[Euphail]

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Nights Watch being lightbringer. I think it would be kind of neat if there was an actual sword to go along with it, but if there isn't, I wouldn't be heart broken.

I don't see the evidence for Dawn being Lightbringer other than it being a unique sword. I also thought that Valyrian Steel was made using dragons fire and spells.

While Daeny does seem to fit the AA prophecy, I think it's too blatent. The last Jon chapter seemed like a more subtle fit to me, and to me waking the dragon from stone will have something to do with greyscale, not the dragon eggs. Prophecies that are in your face are boring, and that's why I don't like Daeny for the AA fit.

[PatrickStormborn]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Ok the point is, dragons can be killed. And Dany's dragons are not fully grown, Balerion the Black Dread they are not. If she sends them into a real battle, against a force the size of the Western/Reach alliance at the Field of Fire, there is a good chance that her juvenile dragons will be killed instead of destroying everything. Let them kill their 1000 between them and then die against the one thousandth and first they face. They're not big enough yet to cow Dany's enemies into submission. And I don't have to remember anything about the five year gap, because it is not in place.

Well, actually, Martin's intention after the five year gap has not changed. So it should be taken into consideration. Drogon is actually pretty big if I recall correctly -- much larger than he should have been given the timeline.

You also have to remember that Dany doesn't just have dragons. She has a large force of Unsullied, many Freedmen and will probably even take over a khalasar. And before you say about how the Dothraki won't be good for Westeros, I'm just going to say that I doubt Dany will allow her khalasar to rape and pillage.

Quote

I would say it is more obvious than R+L=J (and also likely false, unlike R+L=J), because the text dwells much more on AA and lightbringer than it does on Jon's parentage. The AA prophecy comes up again and again, I don't see how someone could fail to see the way the prophecy fits Dany. And then Aemon outright says it's Dany. If that's not obvious, what is?

More obvious than R+L=J? Well, personally I disagree. But we all have different responses to these things. R+L=J hints were quite clear to me and many others. Maybe it was the same for the dragons being Lightbringer, but from my experience I don't think it's more obvious.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Revan Baratheon, on 05 March 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Yea but uve gotta take into consideration the following facts:
1)Aegon the conqueror had to fight king/alliance of kings(reach and rock) at their full strength,at a time when westeros was not plagued by multiple wars,starvation,genocide,bankruptcy etc.
2)Aegon the conqueror had a very small army,he did not have the benifit of 10k unsullied and (possibly Jhaqo's khalasar)
3)Aegon the Conqueror arrived at a time when dragons were inconspicious.No one knew how powerful they are and how they can fuck up(burn)4000 men and one king hehe..
4)Aegon the Conqueror didnt have to recover a throne,he had to make one,which is considerably harder

So basically all dany needs to do is arrive with DRAGONS,once westerosi see them they will piss themselves trying to bend their knee to her.Never mind that the dragons arent fully grown,the THOUGHT of them burning another 4k men will motivate the westerosi to accept dany.Add to that her army,westeros's current condition,her claim etc. And there u have it. Danerys The Reconqueror!
(yes i know "aegon the 6th" and dorne might be a bigger threat but aegon dosent have dragons which will be bad for morale and dorne will probably ditch him for dany(especially if he turns out to be a blackfyre) )

I'm not saying Dany can't conquer Westeros with the help of her dragons, especially considering Westeros' weakened state. I'm saying her dragons will not be enough for everyone to rally around her. We've seen city-states resisting her dragons. You're telling me the kingdoms of Westeros will not resist? We already know that Euron thinks he is going to steal them and make them and Dany his own. What will the other egos of Westeros do? What will Cersei Lannister do? Stannis number-one stubborn badass Baratheon? What will Littlefinger do? How about Varys, if he thinks Dany is likely to out Aegon as a fake? What does the Citadel think about all of this? Even if they can't win, there are plenty of people who seem quite likely to resist.

To your individual points, they are mostly correct- Westeros is weak and Dany does have a larger army than Aegon the conqueror. But you're wrong about dragons being inconspicuous in Westeros at the time that Aegon landed. Valyria was the largest empire the world had ever known, and it was just across the Narrow Sea. Westeros knew about dragons. People fight. They are stubborn and willful.

Edit:

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

Well, actually, Martin's intention after the five year gap has not changed. So it should be taken into consideration. Drogon is actually pretty big if I recall correctly -- much larger than he should have been given the timeline.

All we know is that Martin intended a gap, and then ended up not doing it. There are probably several things about the story that have changed because of that decision. So whatever he intended before the gap cannot possibly be exactly the same as what he intended after the gap. What is on the page is what is on the page, the rest only informs our interest in GRRM's writerly process.

Edit2:

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

And before you say about how the Dothraki won't be good for Westeros, I'm just going to say that I doubt Dany will allow her khalasar to rape and pillage.

I'm not an anti-Dany person, I think so far her intentions have been good and I kind of like her for that while disliking her for the way she behaves and for the torture and crucifixion. What I am is a strongly anti-Dany-as-savior person. More and more I'm buying into the idea that Dany is being set up as a villain. But even if that is not the case, I will be supremely surprised if these books are really just a Dany as AA savior of mankind arc.

I think GRRM has established the strong message that dragons are conquerors and destroyers, not rulers, uniters, or saviors. War is bad for Westeros. Doesn't matter it it's the Dothraki, Lannister forces, or Stark forces. It's killing and pillaging and rape. Dany still seems to believe that she can bring all of that to Westeros and be loved for it. I don't think she can.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 05 March 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[jarl the climber]

ServantOnIce, on 05 March 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

In this series though, the prophesies so far have been on point. The prophesy about the female fish crying tears of blood as she was dumped into the river came true with the Red Wedding.

The House of the Undying came true, many of them the Red Wedding came true, Westeros being ravaged by the Kings at war came true and Stannis ending up at The Wall came true as well.

The dreams Dany had telling her to "wake the dragon" which she did.

Prophesies have been solid so far .  and Maggy the Frog, has one kid down and two to go . . .with Queen Cersei to be finished off.

Lightbringer, AA, or PWWP are ancient prophecies and we should differentiate them from some of the others you mention. Jon and Mel had an interesting back and forth about this in aDwD, Jons point was that the information she gave him wasn't clear enough and that being able to see the future served no purpose if you can't change the outcome. Stannis complains to Mel about this as well. Nor is it clear why this information revealed to these people. Dany had a vision about the red wedding and there is no way she could prevent it but in aDwD Daario suggests to her that she should do something similar at her and Hizadars wedding so it could have been meant as a warning to her but who can say. By trying to prevent her prophecy from coming true, Cersei might actually be making it come true. Pycelle admits that the future can be foretold but that it wiser not to.

The lightbringer prophecy is one that most people want to happen, we can see that Aemon has been all over the place on it, first it was Rhaegar, then Rhaear thought it was Aegon, Mel thinks it is Stannis, there are other contenders that we can consider from the knowledge we have as readers of the books and Aemon was certian before he died that the prophecy was about Dany and her dragons. But he has been wrong before nor is it clear why Aemon thought it had to be a Targaryean or someone with Valyrian blood, I guess we will see what comes out of this at the end. The Night Watch as Lightbringer does make a certian amount of sense.

Edited by jarl the climber, 05 March 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[the Remarkable Other]

First of all I would like to ask if the story of how AA forged the first Lightbringer should be taken for granted. It is not part of a prophecy and we hear it first from Saladhor Saan, a pirate with little religious inclination and not from a priest of R'hllor. it may simply  be a fairy tale with just a grain of truth at the core.
The dragons could unite all of Westeros, either through hope or more likely through fear and they are an obvious candidate for the position of Lightbringer, just like Dany is the most likely candidate for AAR. The fact that they are obvious makes me think that they are also huge red herrings, since this is GRRM that we are talking about. I also don't think that Lightbringer is a magic sword but either the NW or some other abstract notion (" the unyielding will of men").

Edited by the Remarkable Other, 05 March 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[Dragonfish]

Warhammer, on 05 March 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

I think Dragons could unite Westeros, but most likely against the person who has the dragons.  Dany wants to "lay waste to cities" I'm sure that will go over real well with the small folk.

I don't recall Dany ever saying that in the books, nor can I find a quote of her saying that in any of the ebook versions. I think you're confusing the recent TV show trailer with the books.

[The Ghost in the Snow]

I think the fact that Dany comes in and saves the day will make the books a bit less real, less fulfilling. This is a girl who has had one goal in the entirety of the series: I. WANT. TO. GO. HOME. That's it; it began with an interest to get back to Willem Darry's home and has since progressed into a desire to reclaim her family's spot on the Iron Throne.

However, how is it fair that a girl queen of Meeren (the most boring locale on the planet) gets to bring her dragons and inadvertently saves the day? The Night's Watch has been very much aware of this threat since A Game of Thrones. It doesn't have to be Jon Snow at the head of the charge, but it doesn't make sense for the nature of the Others quest to allow a 'Green-Girl' to take charge on this. I think that term 'green' is closer to being as far away as snow white as possible, as far away from the truth of what lurks in the Lands of Always Winter, as opposed to it meaning simply young, inexperienced.

[Black Crow]

First a couple of points of information. According to Sam's researches, fire can "daunt" the White Walkers. They don't like it presumably because being made of ice they will melt when exposed to it for too long, just like the Ice Dragon, but on the other hand it doesn't kill (or melt) them as instantly as dragonglass.

As to dragonglass this is assumed to be just another name for obsidian (a naturally occuring igneous glass) but doesn't someone mention that the glass candles in the citadel are dragonglass not obsidian (could be wrong but ot sticks in my mind) in which case dragonglass may be obsidian + magick rather than raw obsidian.

As to Lightbringer. There are two ways of looking at it. Either its metaphorical in which case we can argue round in circles as to whether its a metaphor for the Nights Watch post the beaking of the Pact when they elected to follow the Lord of Light and deposed the Night's King, or whether its a metaphor for Dany's  dragons. Alternatively its a real sword. I have a problem with this in trying to figure out what one guy with one sword can accomplish, but be that as it may the AA prophecy requires the Warrior to appear and to draw it from the fire, which clearly implies that it still needs to be forged, which would rule out existing contenders such as Dawn and Longclaw. A more obvious contender in that case would be the reforging of Ice back into one sword, but that's also attended with a big problem in that the hero most likely to draw it is Jon Snow and he's the Ice Dragon.

[littleWalder]

Revan Baratheon, on 04 March 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Actually i think it was mentioned that a couple of extra chapters from ADWD-including the seige of mereene and the seige of winterfell,as well as a
few Arianne chapters-were removed in the final draft and pushed into TWOW.

So we will definetly see the seige of mereene in
the next book with dany playing a cruicial role in it(she might ally with Jhaqo and save mereene with a dothraki+Dragons attack)

Although after saving mereene,she might place it
under the shavepate's management,and head for westeros(finally!)

Oh, I have no doubt that we will see the battle of Meereen, but I don't see Dany's involvement in it as granted. For me the whole cliffhanger-ish Drogon flies her off to who-knows-where doesn't make a lot of sense if the point is just to get her back to Mereen at the beginning of the next book. I see her assuming control over the Dothraki and moving west straight away as at least as likely. We also know from SSMs that Mago (?) the guy who was killed in the TV series but not in the book, will have a larger role in the next book, and Dany seems to be the only possible POV for that.

I'm not saying it's impossible that she returns to Meereen but I don't think it can be taken for granted either and it's not the version that I personally favor or look forward to reading. It would just fit the whole Dany arc that she disappears from Meereen just as the final other players who are looking for her are getting there. Also, I think the Dragons need to split up, and her leaving with Drogon is a part of that.

[littleWalder]

A few people have already made very good points about the problems of 3 dragons automatically uniting Westeros to fight the Others. I agree and want to add that I don't see 5 books of gritty realpolitik, plotting and scheming being resolved in a mythical dragon appearance sequence. I think Dany will get her piece of Westerosi politics soon.
Another thing is, I am not really sure how uniting Westeros to fight the others is actually going to work. They resurrect the dead. The night's watch, who did fairly good against the attack at the FotFM, probably reinforced the wight army with more dead of their own than they could take out. I am sure there will be a practical way to face that enemy eventually, but forming a large host and marching against them doesn't seem to be very high on the list of candidates.

[tze]

Logistically, I think it would be impossible for a single guy with a sword to defeat an army of Others. That's why I've never liked the "this sword or that sword will turn out to be Lightbringer" theories, because if Dawn or Longclaw or Ice end up being Lightbringer----well, that means Azor Ahai reborn has to be physically present to destroy the Others with whatever special qualities Lightbringer possesses, and this is not a small amount of terrain we're talking about here.  The Others would be fine so long as they avoided that one single guy with his one single weapon, which sounds like an idiotic way for humanity to win a war. (And if Lightbringer itself isn't the key factor in destroying the Others . . . what good is it for, again?)

Dragons also make little sense to me as Lightbringer candidates for a number of reasons. There are only three of them, fire can't spread as easily in winter weather as in summer weather, these dragons won't have the time to grow to village-encompassing size by ADOS, given that Balerion was supposedly decades old at the time of the Conquest, etc. Importantly, dragonfire is pretty useless when the foe practices guerrilla warfare, (see., e.g., Aegon the Conqueror's failure to conquer Dorne), which is the kind of warfare we've been seeing the Others practice thus far.

Apple Martini, on 05 March 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

This logic may sound bizarre to a lot of people, but this is why I don't think the dragons will play the role you'd expect — because it's so easy to look at Aegon I and then at Dany and draw such clear parallels. The thinking seems to be, "Well it happened that way once, that's how it will happen again." But it's the fact that it has happened once that makes me think lightning won't strike in the same place twice. Do I think the dragons will be important, absolutely. Just not in the positive way so many people predict.

I think there are way too many explicit differences between Dany and Aegon the Conqueror for Dany to logically replicate Aegon's successes. Aegon used the apparatus of the Faith to validate his conquest; Dany seems utterly clueless about the power of religious figures over the populace, and even if she were aware, the misogyny inherent in the Faith works against Dany in ways it didn't work against Aegon. In AGOT, Tyrion tells us that the Field of Fire took place "amidst fields of golden wheat ripe for harvest." Not on snow-covered plains. If Tyrion's correct, and I don't see how the season of Aegon's conquest could have been overlooked in a mere three hundred years, then Aegon's conquest could not have taken place in the winter, while Dany's invasion will have to take place, not just in winter, but in the heart of a terrible winter. Aegon was an outsider, untouched by the centuries-long squabbles of the various kings and lords, so he was uniquely suited to act as a unifying figure, as nobody in Westeros had a grudge against the Targaryen family; Dany (and every other Targ) brings a hellacious amount of baggage that simply wasn't present when the Targs were shiny and new to Westeros. Etc., etc.

I think the key to defeating the Others logically lies in uniting the Northmen and the Free Folk, not necessarily in uniting the southerners with the north. Look at how Stannis's southern troops were decimated in a single early-winter blizzard. Troops and generals from south of the Neck won't be able to do any better, and we know the Others either come with (or bring) terrible winter weather. Say a massive army is brought up from the south to fight the Others. What happens? Well, the snows start falling and southern soldiers start freezing to death, rising as wights, and boom. Rather than a huge number of human soldiers vs an untold amount of Others, you suddenly start losing tens, maybe even hundreds of thousands of soldiers to the cold, and the Others are gifted with a massive, brand-new wight army. This isn't nearly as huge of a problem with the winter-loving Northmen/wildlings.

[chris999]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 March 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

More obvious than R+L=J? Well, personally I disagree. But we all have different responses to these things. R+L=J hints were quite clear to me and many others. Maybe it was the same for the dragons being Lightbringer, but from my experience I don't think it's more obvious.

Well, since we are talking about obvious. I think that GRRM has given us clear signals that Dany is AA, BUT, we know GRRM, and we also know that there is always a twist.

The whole smoke and fire thing with the funeral pyre
Being 'reborn' (on the pyre) during the red comet.
The funeral pyre that acts as a catalyst to bring the dragons back.

These events I think are meant to make it clear to the reader that GRRM wants us to believe that Dany is AA reborn.


That "twist" that I was talking about earlier is the only thing that makes me think that the prophesies are wrong. Other than that, I think that Dany being AA and the dragons being LB are pretty obvious.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

We are not even sure if lightbringer has been forged yet, it could be that Gendry forges it and the blood sacrifice could be that of Jaimie whom I believe will come in contact with them, and having taken Jaimie's life Gendry could escape to NW for safety..but if lightbringer is already been forged it could be Longclow..now LC we know is a blade made of magic (valyrian steal) and Jon fought the others with LC and did kill them with it (sacrifice, if you can except the fact that it doesnt have to be red blood flowing) and he did have an accident with fire during the battle too. Another possibility is that thinking he is dead NW burning him but JS rising with sword in hand and possibly killing his NW brothers ( as they are his family/love/wife based on the NW oath)..I do not think it will be  dragons..at this stage in time I can not see anyone other then Bran who is ready to control them and assuming that there is only two books left to come we must meet LB (in its magical form) in the next book and it is not enough time to any others to master controlling the dragons.