103 replies to this topic

[Val the Wildling Princess]

@Patrick, may I ask you why are you so sure the dragons will be the only thing that could unite Westeros? You know I'm no Dany fan but apart from that, I don't think the people in Westeros would be happy to have dragons around again even if the threat of the Others was there.

[PatrickStormborn]

Black Crow, on 03 March 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nah, the Others (and Jon the Ice Dragon) are the best hope for Westeros in the face of Dany and her Amazing Dragons

Well personally I disagree. Dany doesn't seem to want to turn anyone into ice zombies, which would put me off from siding with the Others. The giant ice spiders probably wouldn't help either.

Val the Wildling Princess, on 03 March 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

@Patrick, may I ask you why are you so sure the dragons will be the only thing that could unite Westeros? You know I'm no Dany fan but apart from that, I don't think the people in Westeros would be happy to have dragons around again even if the threat of the Others was there.

Westeros is too big to be held by any of the current contenders for the throne. So I believe that dragons (even without Dany) would be the only thing powerful enough to hold it for a long enough time to fight the Others.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 03 March 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[protar]

csm, on 03 March 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Where does this theory come from ?

Never heard of it but I'm guessing it's an abstraction of the AA myth, so that over time the dragons are killed off and refined into lightbringer. Victarion would represent the water, Jaime the lion and possibly some other event (Dany's death?) would represent Nissa Nissa. It's a cool theory, not that I believe in it.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

PatrickStormborn, on 03 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Westeros is too big to be held by any of the current contenders for the throne. So I believe that dragons (even without Dany) would be the only thing powerful enough to hold it for a long enough time to fight the Others.

Thanks for the answer I guess we'll have to wait and see!

[Black Crow]

PatrickStormborn, on 03 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Well personally I disagree. Dany doesn't seem to want to turn anyone into ice zombies.

Indeed...  she prefers frying them.

[Precioushobbits]

ghost the direwolf, on 03 March 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

read on the heresy 7 a very interesting theory about lightbringer.

When AA killed  NN, it was an unwilling sacrifice,  she screamed and her cry cracked the moon. we have as well the story from the 2 dorthraky girls about dragons boming from a crack on the moon.
MMD is Dany NN, as her death was an unwilling sacrifice as well which may have helped caused the dragon.

I do like the theory about lightbringer been the dragons. as well as the one been the NW.

From A Game of thrones

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons come from themoon,"

"Once there were twomoonsin the sky, but one wandred to close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons with return."

The moon is somehow related to dragons. More likely as a symbol of something else. Perhaps the forging of lightbringer was actually about destroying a moon to thereby change the planet's orbit. That could result in milder climates, longer summers and allow dragons to flourished. Its a huge jump and the pieces don't fit right, but I thought seeing some of these quotes next to each other was neat. Plus the other moon definitely didn't crack when Dany hatched her dragons.

It seems that various religions could stand in for some of the symbols. Azor Ahai is forging in a temple (is he a priest or holy figure?) and tries to temper lightbringer first in water and then a Lion's heart before settling on Nissa Nissa. There are references to a Father of Waters and Moonsingers in Braavos and a Lion of Night Yi Ti (very loose connection since he is the god of death in Yi Ti - I was thinking there could be other lion gods in Yi Yi). Perhaps the forging of lightbringer (dragons, dragonsteel, or ?) came through the sacrifice of a god's followers.

From a Clash with Kings

"...Nissa, Nissa, he said to her, for that was her name, bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world." She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

I don't think its clear if Nissa Nissa was a willing or unwilling participant. We do have the moon cracking from her anguish and ecstasy though...

Edited by Precioushobbits, 03 March 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Apple Martini]

PatrickStormborn, on 03 March 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Westeros is too big to be held by any of the current contenders for the throne. So I believe that dragons (even without Dany) would be the only thing powerful enough to hold it for a long enough time to fight the Others.

But what is this based on? Their ability to destroy things and kill people on a massive scale? "Do what I say because I have dragons and I'll roast you if you don't"?

[PatrickStormborn]

Apple Martini, on 03 March 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

But what is this based on? Their ability to destroy things and kill people on a massive scale? "Do what I say because I have dragons and I'll roast you if you don't"?

If fire and blood will save the realm, then so be it. Her rule in Meereen failed for one reason: she didn't use her dragons and therefore had to compromise.

[Black Crow]

You are R'Hllor and I claim my five pounds!  

[Know Face Man]

PatrickStormborn, on 04 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

If fire and blood will save the realm, then so be it. Her rule in Meereen failed for one reason: she didn't use her dragons and therefore had to compromise.

Danys rule in Meereen has not failed, she will no doubt return to Meereen with her Dragon.

[PatrickStormborn]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Danys rule in Meereen has not failed, she will no doubt return to Meereen with her Dragon.

By "failed" I just mean that I found her to be a bit hit and miss.

[littleWalder]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Danys rule in Meereen has not failed, she will no doubt return to Meereen with her Dragon.

I, for one, doubt that very much. I don't think GRRM got her so far away from Mereen just to take her back and revive her old indecisiveness. I really hope her last chapter in ADWD was her first step towards Westeros, and that Mereen is solved by the characters who are still there. And included in characters are the two dragons, most definitely...

[Revan Baratheon]

littleWalder, on 04 March 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

I, for one, doubt that very much. I don't think GRRM got her so far away from Mereen just to take her back and revive her old indecisiveness. I really hope her last chapter in ADWD was he
r first step towards Westeros, and that Mereen is solved by the characters who are still there. And included in characters are the two dragons, most definitely...

Actually i think it was mentioned that a couple of extra chapters from ADWD-including the seige of mereene and the seige of winterfell,as well as a
few Arianne chapters-were removed in the final draft and pushed into TWOW.

So we will definetly see the seige of mereene in
the next book with dany playing a cruicial role in it(she might ally with Jhaqo and save mereene with a dothraki+Dragons attack)

Although after saving mereene,she might place it
under the shavepate's management,and head for westeros(finally!)

Edited by Revan Baratheon, 04 March 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[redriver]

The sacrifice bit doesn't work for me.

She didn't willingly sacrifice her son for Drogo's life,I think she was under the impression that it was his stallion that was being sacrificed.
Drogo was a zombie when Dany killed him out of mercy.

MMD could be called a sacrifice but not exactly a loved one.

I like the theories,but really,I just hope it's a sword.

[Revan Baratheon]

But that would be so boring (unless the sword turns out to be dawn) Cause im FUCKING SICK of valrian blades!

[redriver]

Revan Baratheon, on 04 March 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

But that would be so boring (unless the sword turns out to be dawn) Cause im FUCKING SICK of valrian blades!

Depends how it plays out,though.

The intrigue is in who the new Nissa Nissa turns out to be.My pet (aherm) theory is that Jon gets turned into Jon McOther and kills Ghost with Longclaw.

If you're an Other,you don't want a hot blooded direwolf hanging about.There is further foreshadowing in the name of the direwolf.Then Ghost gets to be an icy,winged direwolf ready for some serious badassery.

And Longclaw is not just Valyrian steel,it's a bastard sword wielded by a bastard!!

I think there's enough prophecy,visions,portents and sheer narrative direction to make this quite a valid theory.

When I've mentioned it before people have said "Nooo,you can't kill Ghost,boo hoo",but really to reflect the original NN,it has to be a real sacrifice,a loved one,a part of you.

[Revan Baratheon]

redriver, on 04 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Depends how it plays out,though.

The intrigue is in who the new Nissa Nissa turns
out to be.My pet (aherm) theory is that Jon gets turned into Jon McOther and kills Ghost with Longclaw.

If you're an Other,you don't want a hot blooded
direwolf hanging about.There is further foreshadowing in the name of the direwolf.Then Ghost gets to be an icy,winged direwolf ready for some serious badassery.


And Longclaw is not just Valyrian steel,it's a bastard sword wielded by a bastard!!

I think there's enough prophecy,visions,portents and sheer narrative direction to make this quite a valid theory.

When I've mentioned it before people have said "Nooo,you can't kill Ghost,boo hoo",but really to reflect the original NN,it has to be a real sacrifice,a loved one,a part of you.

Interesting theory.If u have made a thread on this,please give me a link.i like seeing other people's theories on AA and LB.
But seriously longclaw becoming the new LB would be

[Dragonfish]

Precioushobbits, on 03 March 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

From A Game of thrones

"A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons come from themoon,"

"Once there were twomoonsin the sky, but one wandred to close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons with return."

The moon is somehow related to dragons. More likely as a symbol of something else. Perhaps the forging of lightbringer was actually about destroying a moon to thereby change the planet's orbit. That could result in milder climates, longer summers and allow dragons to flourished. Its a huge jump and the pieces don't fit right, but I thought seeing some of these quotes next to each other was neat. Plus the other moon definitely didn't crack when Dany hatched her dragons.

The "sun and moon" legend is symbolic of Dany (Drogo's "moon of my life") and Drogo (Dany's "sun and stars") coming together on the funeral pyre to hatch dragons.

Personally, I've always been a fan of the theory that the dragons are Lightbringer (though I also like Apple Martini's theory that Lightbringer could be the Night's Watch). At the very least, I simply could not see Lightbringer as a sword. In fact, I would go so far as to guess that even the original Lightbringer was a dragon or multiple dragons as well, and that the truth became lost over time. IMO, the term "dragonsteel" that Sam found does not reference Valyrian steel, as he and Jon both assume, but instead metaphorically refers to the use of dragons as a weapon ("dragonsteel" perhaps being a mistranslation of the original First Men runes describing the weapon).

[redriver]

Revan Baratheon, on 04 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Interesting theory.If u have made a thread on this,please give me a link.i like seeing other people's theories on AA and LB.
But seriously longclaw becoming the new LB would be

No,I haven't made a thread of it,just made posts in various existing threads.

But I will soon.I just have to collect all the info together to make it coherent.

[Apple Martini]

PatrickStormborn, on 04 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

If fire and blood will save the realm, then so be it. Her rule in Meereen failed for one reason: she didn't use her dragons and therefore had to compromise.

But what makes you think that fire and blood can or will save the realm? You keep talking about the dragons "uniting the country" and "saving the realm" in broad general terms. All I'm asking is for you to speak plainly and specifically. What is it, specifically, about the dragons that can heal the country?