103 replies to this topic

[A Free Shadow]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

But what makes you think that fire and blood can or will save the realm? You keep talking about the dragons "uniting the country" and "saving the realm" in broad general terms. All I'm asking is for you to speak plainly and specifically. What is it, specifically, about the dragons that can heal the country?

"The power resides where men believe it resides". It is often some token people are united under. Dragons are power, so people are glad to have them "on their side".

[Apple Martini]

A Free Shadow, on 04 March 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

"The power resides where men believe it resides". It is often some token people are united under. Dragons are power, so people are glad to have them "on their side".

Perhaps. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the last thing that an already war-torn, starving, wrecked, broken country needs is a trio of living flamethrowers.

[A Free Shadow]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Perhaps. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the last thing that an already war-torn, starving, wrecked, broken country needs is a trio of living flamethrowers.

It is not what a country needs in philosophical (?) terms, but what people en masse would take in as their "friend and saviour". It is even easier to blind them when the land is wrecked and broken. The dragons swoop in, slay the Others and give people something shiny, magical and powerful to trust in.

[chris999]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Perhaps. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the last thing that an already war-torn, starving, wrecked, broken country needs is a trio of living flamethrowers.

The dragons could actually be exactly what the "Realm" needs.

A powerful weapon used to kill all of the usurpers, effectively ending all of the war and bloodshed.

Once all of the false kings are dead, the realm then has a chance to come together, united under one ruler. That sets the realm up to be united against the Others instead of fighting between themselves.

Basically the exact same thing that Aegon the conqueror did.

Edited by chris999, 04 March 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Sevumar]

chris999, on 04 March 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

The dragons could actually be exactly what the "Realm" needs.

A powerful weapon used to kill all of the usurpers, effectively ending all of the war and bloodshed.

So you're anticipating Stannis getting control of some dragons?

I think that if the dragons are going to have a positive impact in Westeros at all, it needs to be in the fight against the Others. Otherwise, all they do is ratchet up the level of death, destruction, and horror in warfare. Anyone who would invade at this time and use these weapons to plunge the realm back into war doesn't deserve to rule Westeros. What people need is peace, a chance to recover and prepare for the winter, and a united front against the Others. Of course, this being Martin, they won't get it.

Quote

Basically the exact same thing that Aegon the conqueror did.

It's not as if the reign of Aegon and his descendants did anything particularly wonderful for Westeros. Chances are, the continent would've been just fine had he never conquered it in the first place.

[Apple Martini]

A Free Shadow, on 04 March 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

It is not what a country needs in philosophical (?) terms, but what people en masse would take in as their "friend and saviour". It is even easier to blind them when the land is wrecked and broken. The dragons swoop in, slay the Others and give people something shiny, magical and powerful to trust in.

But what about the dragons makes sense in the "friends and savior" aspect? No one has answered the damn question. What will the dragons DO to save people? I wouldn't be putting too much faith in a cheap deus ex development where they neatly and cleanly destroy the Others at the last minute. I doubt it will be that easy.

chris999, on 04 March 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

The dragons could actually be exactly what the "Realm" needs.

A powerful weapon used to kill all of the usurpers, effectively ending all of the war and bloodshed.

Once all of the false kings are dead, the realm then has a chance to come together, united under one ruler. That sets the realm up to be united against the Others instead of fighting between themselves.

That depends on who you think is a usurper.

Quote

Basically the exact same thing that Aegon the conqueror did.

You say that as if Aegon the Conqueror made Westeros a better place than it would have been otherwise. Aegon also had, to my understanding, no interest in saving anyone or bettering anyone's lives. You're mistaking one family's greed for political benevolence.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 March 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[denwilsco]

(r+l=j jon , robs letter and jon being reborn) make him the only one who could use the dragons to unite the realm

[chris999]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

But what about the dragons makes sense in the "friends and savior" aspect? No one has answered the damn question. What will the dragons DO to save people? I wouldn't be putting too much faith in a cheap deus ex development where they neatly and cleanly destroy the Others at the last minute. I doubt it will be that easy.



That depends on who you think is a usurper.


You say that as if Aegon the Conqueror made Westeros a better place than it would have been otherwise. Aegon also had, to my understanding, no interest in saving anyone or bettering anyone's lives. You're mistaking one family's greed for political benevolence.

The dragons dont have to kill everyone in order to unite them. Remember that when Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros, most of the kingdoms bent the knee because they knew that they would die if they tries to fight. The few kingdoms that did try to fight werent destroyed, they just found out quickly that they were outmatched, and they bent the knee quickly after they had a taste of dragonfire.

Considering that Dany  is probably the last legitimate Targaryan, that would mean that all of the supposed "kings" in Westeros are Usurpers or pretenders, and that she is the rightful heir (whether we like it or not).

She doesnt have to kill all of them and their forces (Stannis, Cercei, Doran Martell, Bolton), she just has to make them bend the knee, which they will likely do when they are face to face with Drogon...

I shouldnt have worded my post in a way that sounded like Aegon I was good for Westeros, but in the end, he DID unite the kingdoms and made all of Westoros stronger, which is exactly what Westeros needs to do now in order to survive the invasion of The Others.

I see a lot of similarites between Aegon the First and Dany. They both had 3 dragons. Both of them had an affinity with the strongest of the three dragons (Aegon - Balerion = Dany - Drogon).

And, the dragon has 3 heads... Both had 3 dragons. I see history repeating itself.




I seriously messed up my multiquotes when trying to adress all of your questions. I hope this post makes sense.

Edited by chris999, 04 March 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[Apple Martini]

chris999, on 04 March 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I see a lot of similarites between Aegon the First and Dany. They both had 3 dragons. Both of them had an affinity with the strongest of the three dragons (Aegon - Balerion = Dany - Drogon).

And, the dragon has 3 heads... Both had 3 dragons. I see history repeating itself.

It's because that symmetry seems to exist that I doubt it will actually happen that way with Dany. I don't think it will be that neat, and I wouldn't put it past Martin to build up that sense of symmetry — which is pretty obvious — and then smash it.

ETA: Oh, and I also strongly doubt that Dany is the last legitimate Targaryen. By her own family's tradition, she'd probably still come after Stannis and maybe even Doran Martell, to say nothing of Jon (if he's legitimate) and Aegon (if he's real).

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 March 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

PatrickStormborn, on 04 March 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

If fire and blood will save the realm, then so be it. Her rule in Meereen failed for one reason: she didn't use her dragons and therefore had to compromise.

She was incompetent and tried to change a whole culture overnight. She couldn't control her dragons and the last thing Westeros needs right now is more fire and blood. Dany said so herself that those of the blood of the dragon don't plant trees or heal, they only destroy.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

I hold to Apple Martini's theory that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer.

[The Anti-Targ]

Dragons kill wights (with fire),
Others kill dragons and make dragon wights (fire doesn't kill Others. Though perhaps dragon fire might).
Dragon glass kills others - we know this to be true, and we know it only takes a scratch to do it.

The best hope for Westeros is for the dragons to be fettered in a mine somewhere and put on mass dragonglass producing duty. Wights can be dealth with using Wildfire.

Lightbringer as a sword does seem cliche. But so do dragons. Dragons are so [fantasy] cliche.

Rhaego was taken from Dany unwillingly, so that's not Nissa Nissa equivalent. Drogo was braind dead so it was a mercy, so that's not Nissa Nissa equivalent either. Dany never really chose to sacrificed anything that is the level of Nissa Nissa. In fact Drogo and Rhaego's fate is her own stupid fault for forcing him to accept MMD as nursemaid.

Somehow I don't think GRRM and I are going to see eye to eye on Dany and the dragons.

I still want Stannis to win. Robert was right to rebel against Aerys. Stannis is Robert's legitimate heir. If there's gonna be an hereditary monarchy over the whole of Westeros then Stannis should be king.

Alternatively, they can adopt the Venice model with their Doge's: quasi democratic election of the monarch. Just give women the vote and allow a woman to be elected monarch so that Arya can be Queen.

I think Needle is Lightbringer. Arya will have to kill either Jon or Bran to waken it. Jon would be more poetic since it was a gift from him, and she was always closest to Jon. And Arya will be kick arse with needle against t'Others.

Smoke and salt: smoke is the burning of the keep from which she barely escaped, salt is the sailing to Braavos to complete her arse kicking assassin's training.

It all fits.

[Revan Baratheon]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 04 March 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I hold to Apple Martini's theory that the Night's Watch is Lightbringer.

If they are,then westeros is doomed..i mean their strength is below 1000,half of them have rebelled and (possibly) killed their leader Jon Snow,and the other half consists of ill-trained and undisciplined wildlings.
They could not hold back the wildlings(ASOS) on their own,what makes you think they can hold back the Others?

Even a single dragon has more value than the entire NW.
Yes,dragons are chaotic and unpredictable and like Apple says,might not be the best thing for the westerosi people.Yet they are the only beings imbued with enough power to defeat the invasion of the Others.

[Apple Martini]

Revan Baratheon, on 04 March 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

If they are,then westeros is doomed..i mean their strength is below 1000,half of them have rebelled and (possibly) killed their leader Jon Snow,and the other half consists of ill-trained and undisciplined wildlings.
They could not hold back the wildlings(ASOS) on their own,what makes you think they can hold back the Others?

Even a single dragon has more value than the entire NW.
Yes,dragons are chaotic and unpredictable and like Apple says,might not be the best thing for the westerosi people.Yet they are the only beings imbued with enough power to defeat the invasion of the Others.

If memory serves, fire is only effective against wights. It doesn't kill the Others. So how are three dragons — only one of which is actually somewhat under Dany's control — going to destroy the Others?

[Know Face Man]

If you get past what you want Lightbringer to be then everyone should clearly see that it has to be the Dragon's.

We don't know if fire will work against the Other but it might and I'm sure it will.

if there is an army of wights like say in the thousands, 3 Dragons would be real nice.

Edited by Know Face Man, 04 March 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

If you get past what you want Lightbringer to be then everyone should clearly see that it has to be the Dragon's.

Says the guy who was so sure it had to be Dawn.

I asked a question, I'm sure someone can answer it.

[Dragonfish]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

If memory serves, fire is only effective against wights. It doesn't kill the Others. So how are three dragons — only one of which is actually somewhat under Dany's control — going to destroy the Others?

I don't recall any evidence that fire doesn't hurt the Others, only that dragonglass does hurt them. Is there something I'm forgetting?

[Apple Martini]

Dragonfish, on 04 March 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

I don't recall any evidence that fire doesn't hurt the Others, only that dragonglass does hurt them. Is there something I'm forgetting?

I was under the impression that fire was only effective against wights. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone can correct me.

[Know Face Man]

Apple anytime someone doesn't agree with you its like they have to be wrong because your God and your word is law. You really need to chill its not like you wrote the books so just shut up

Lightbringer is Dawn Sword of house Dayne and you will see that sooner or later. All Valyrian Steel Swords are made using the same method (Blood Magic Spells and Fire) as Lightbringer/Dawn, which means they too can Kill Others

The new Lightbringer would be Dragons but think whatever you want Apple

Wait its the Nights Watch I forgot, lol what a joke to say the Nights Watch is Lightbringer over the Dragons or a Sword

Alright Mrs Martin you keep helping George write those books!!!

Edited by Know Face Man, 04 March 2012 - 11:39 PM.

[Revan Baratheon]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

If memory serves, fire is only effective against wights. It doesn't kill the Others. So how are three dragons — only one of which is actually
somewhat under Dany's control — going to
destroy the Others?

Fire inhibits them but does not kill them yes.However the Others themselves have a fairly small population(presumably from what little we have seen in the books)
The real threat is starvation+100k wights.Plus the dragon riders can pick off the others using
obsidian arrows...

Anyway,the point im trying to make is,once the dragons take care of the wights and atleast wound the Others with fire,im pretty sure the  
armies of a united westeros will drive them back.

After all theyve done it before during much
worse(the long night) circumstances no?

The point PatrickStormborn and I are trying to
make is that the dragons will be the plot device that knits the men of westeros into a single cohesive army against the Others.This united army,with the help of the dragons will finish off
the Others+Wights.

Its a common misconception that the dragons by themselves will be "a nuke" to use on the Others.Lol they will die fighting by themselves(they arent even grown)
What they will do is act as a catalyst to unite westeros to fight the others.Something that the NW has tried and failed to do.(mormont and jon's pleas for help were met with ridicule)

Edited by Revan Baratheon, 05 March 2012 - 12:02 AM.