103 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

<snip>

I. Asked. A. Question.

But keep telling me to shut up, it really adds strength to your arguments and totally makes me want to take you seriously.

ETA: Dawn is not Valyrian steel, it was forged out of a meteor. Minor factual nitpick. And dragonsteel is suspected to be Valyrian steel (read: still not what Dawn is), but that isn't confirmed.

Revan Baratheon, on 04 March 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

<snip>

Thank you for actually attempting to answer my question instead of telling me to shut up. I still don't really agree, but I respect a position that's rationally defended.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 March 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[jarl the climber]

This is what Marwyn says to Samwell regarding prophecy

" Born amidst salt and smoke beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy."

"Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghisonce wrote that prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is ..... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time."

I think its interesting to read everybodies ideas about this but figuring out these prophecies is just about impossible. I'm actually going with Stannis as being the real deal just because everyone is sure that he is the false hope.

[Know Face Man]

I said Dawn was made the same way as Valyrian Steel not that it is Valyrian Steel. Your such an ass.

Read what I wrote before you try and nitpick.

Dawn was made using the same method as Valyrian Steel/Dragon Glass, I never said Dawn was Valyrian Steel.

Both Valyrian Steel and Dawn were made with Blood Magic Spells and Fire

Edited by Know Face Man, 05 March 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

I said Dawn was made the same way as Valyrian Steel not that it is Valyrian Steel. Your such an ass.

Actually there's no evidence that Dawn was forged the same way. We're told that it's from a fallen star (i.e. a meteor) and that's it.  

But yeah, keep up the name-calling. Also, it's, "You're such an ass."

[Know Face Man]

If you believe like I do that Dawn is Lightbringer then there is evidence about how it was forged

Sorry that you don't see it that way but to bad

Keep on thinking Lightbringer is the Nights Watch, lol.

I don't care if you agree with me or not but I do not like how you act like your word is law. Listen if I had over 4000 posts I might think I wrote the books too lol.

But lets be real here you know nothing more then the next person. You quote the wiki and act like you came up with shit yourself. Your Nights Watch idea is a joke to me. But keep trying.

When Dawn turns out to be the 1st Lightbringer I truly think you should never be able to come back on this website.

And be sent to the Wall with your Nights Watch b.s.

Edited by Know Face Man, 05 March 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[chris999]

I still think that the dragons are a legitimate tool to unite the forces of Westeros.

Just like Aegon the Conqueror used dragons to unite Westeros, Dany can use her dragons to accomplish the same goal. Get all of the false kings and usurpers to either bend the knee, or kill them f they dont.

An organized united Westeros army with the command of  a few dragons would do some serious damage to The Others IMO.

We already know that fire is harmful to the wights, and unless GRRM has said otherwise, I have a hard time believing that the fiery breath of a dragon would not cause serious harm to or kill an "Other" (who seem to be made of Ice).

BTW, I just read the thread where AM posted her theory about the NW being LB. There are interesting points that she made, especially considering the vows...

I still think that there are many theories that could end up being correct.

Edited by chris999, 05 March 2012 - 12:10 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Know Face Man, on 05 March 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

If you believe like I do that Dawn is Lightbringer then there is evidence about how it was forged

Sorry that you don't see it that way but to bad

In other words, you have no evidence that Dawn was forged the way you claim it was and all you can do is tell me to shut up and call me an ass like an immature child throwing a tantrum. Charming.

[ServantOnIce]

jarl the climber, on 04 March 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I think its interesting to read everybodies ideas about this but figuring out these prophecies is just about impossible. I'm actually going with Stannis as being the real deal just because everyone is sure that he is the false hope.

In this series though, the prophesies so far have been on point. The prophesy about the female fish crying tears of blood as she was dumped into the river came true with the Red Wedding.

The House of the Undying came true, many of them the Red Wedding came true, Westeros being ravaged by the Kings at war came true and Stannis ending up at The Wall came true as well.

The dreams Dany had telling her to "wake the dragon" which she did.

Prophesies have been solid so far .  and Maggy the Frog, has one kid down and two to go . . .with Queen Cersei to be finished off.

[Apple Martini]

chris999, on 05 March 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Just like Aegon the Conqueror used dragons to unite Westeros, Dany can use her dragons to accomplish the same goal. Get all of the false kings and usurpers to either bend the knee, or kill them f they dont.

This logic may sound bizarre to a lot of people, but this is why I don't think the dragons will play the role you'd expect — because it's so easy to look at Aegon I and then at Dany and draw such clear parallels. The thinking seems to be, "Well it happened that way once, that's how it will happen again." But it's the fact that it has happened once that makes me think lightning won't strike in the same place twice. Do I think the dragons will be important, absolutely. Just not in the positive way so many people predict.

I still stand by my theory that I've discussed and defended. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'd rather be wrong about something that's "outside the box" and not the obvious choice, than right about something that's relatively easy to conclude. No disrespect to the "dragons are Lightbringer" idea (I'd sooner believe it was them than a magical sword), just that I think the dragons are more of an obvious candidate than the Night's Watch.

Edited by Apple Martini, 05 March 2012 - 12:18 AM.

[Revan Baratheon]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Dawn is not Valyrian steel, it was forged out of a meteor. Minor factual nitpick. And
dragonsteel is suspected to be Valyrian steel (read: still not what Dawn is), but that isn't confirmed.

There was a poster on this thread who actually made quite a thoughtful comment on that point.
According to him,the original lightbringer might also have been dragons instead of a sword,but over the years,cause of the history of LB being written in runes,the the meaning got corrupted(mistranslated) as "dragonsteel" which in turn is taken to be Valyrian steel cause of the popularity of those swords.

After all dont u think its a little too obvious that valyriansteel=dragonsteel ?And then there is the red comet=return of AA and LB=dragons.After all valyrian blades have been around for centuries and they are relatively numerous while dragons have just returned to the world and there are only three...
On the other hand i might be on a overdose of "You know you"ve been reading too much of the ASOIAF forums and theories" syndrome

Btw apple,when people tread down that path just ignore them.Im been accused of trolling about 4 times,people keep saying ive got issues and what not.Just ignore it cause i dont want this thread to be closed

[Apple Martini]

Revan Baratheon, on 05 March 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

There was a poster on this thread who actually made quite a thoughtful comment on that point.
According to him,the original lightbringer might also have been dragons instead of a sword,but over the years,cause of the history of LB being written in runes,the the meaning got corrupted(mistranslated) as "dragonsteel" which in turn is taken to be Valyrian steel cause of the popularity of those swords.

I did see that, on a reread. I think it has some holes that could be addressed — where did the dragons come from and where did they go? — but I agree that it could be the case, sure. In any case, I do not think that Valyrian steel is the same as dragonsteel, because Sam and Jon both do.

[Know Face Man]

Apple Martini, on 05 March 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

In other words, you have no evidence that Dawn was forged the way you claim it was and all you can do is tell me to shut up and call me an ass like an immature child throwing a tantrum. Charming.

I have told you a million times the evidence about Dawn being Lightbringer. So if I feel they are the same Sword wouldn't that mean I felt they were forged the same way?? See when I show my point all you say is dumb shit like I'm a immature child when I clearly have told you the evidence.

When your wrong just say your wrong no point in making me show you 100 times. Dawn is clearly Lightbringer

Edited by Know Face Man, 05 March 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[Apple Martini]

Know Face Man, on 05 March 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I have told you a million times the evidence about Dawn being Lightbringer. So if I feel they are the same Sword wouldn't that mean I felt they were forged the same way?? See when I show my point all you say is dumb shit like I'm a immature child when I clearly have told you the evidence

I called you an immature child because you had to resort to name-calling, not because you think that Dawn is Lightbringer. If you think I'm uppity and a know-it-all — and I admit that I can be, but I try very hard to back it up with evidence and research and rationality, and I've had many, many people write me in PMs and in threads telling me that they appreciate my input and ideas — contest it by proving me wrong, not by calling me insulting names or telling me to shut up.

Anyway, Revan is right. This is derailing the thread and frankly you're not worth any more of my time. Good evening.

[chris999]

Apple Martini, on 05 March 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

This logic may sound bizarre to a lot of people, but this is why I don't think the dragons will play the role you'd expect — because it's so easy to look at Aegon I and then at Dany and draw such clear parallels. The thinking seems to be, "Well it happened that way once, that's how it will happen again." But it's the fact that it has happened once that makes me think lightning won't strike in the same place twice. Do I think the dragons will be important, absolutely. Just not in the positive way so many people predict.

I still stand by my theory that I've discussed and defended. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'd rather be wrong about something that's "outside the box" and not the obvious choice, than right about something that's relatively easy to conclude. No disrespect to the "dragons are Lightbringer" idea (I'd sooner believe it was them than a magical sword), just that I think the dragons are more of an obvious candidate than the Night's Watch.

I agree. GRRM seems to always think out of the box which is my main hesitation when considering Dragons as LB. I think that the theory makes complete sense, but at the same time, I never saw the "Red Wedding" coming, so it is safe to say that GRRM has plenty of tricks up his sleeve, which means until we know for sure, we need to look outside the box.

I also have theories about one of the Valaryan Steel Blades (not Dawn) to be Lightbringer.

My theory on the Valaryan steel swords are that they are stronger than normal steel because they are tempered with dragons flame instead of in a blacksmiths oven. (The books have already stated that Valaryan steel is harmful to the Others)

It is also a good explanation as to why the "secret art" was lost in the "Doom of Valarya" because there were no more dragons in Essos, or master blacksmiths that knew how to craft them. So, basically, that means that any one of the special swords (excluding Dawn) could be LB as long as it were weilded by AA.

Edited by chris999, 05 March 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[Apple Martini]

chris999, on 05 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

My theory on the Valaryan steel swords are that they are stronger than normal steel because they are tempered with dragons flame instead of in a blacksmiths oven. It is also a good explanation as to why the secret art was lost in the "Doom of Valarya" because there were no more dragons in Essos, or master blacksmiths that knew how to craft them. So, basically, that means that any one of the special swords (excluding Dawn) could be LB as long as it were weilded by AA.

It makes sense that dragons were involved in forging Valyrian steel, definitely.

Regarding Lightbringer possibly just being an actual sword, my thinking on that is, if it's true, it basically works in the same way as the Air Force One call sign. That is to say, Air Force One is only Air Force One because it carries the president. Without that distinction, it's just a plane. In the same vein, Lightbringer would be whatever sword was wielded by Azor Ahai, while he or she was doing ... the Azor Ahai thing, not necessarily that one specific sword was a "dormant" Lightbringer just waiting to be picked up. Which seems to also be what you're arguing.

Edited by Apple Martini, 05 March 2012 - 12:38 AM.

[Know Face Man]

I believe the way Lightbringer/Dawn was forged was the idea from which Valyrian Steel Swords are made.

Meaning all Valyrian Steel Swords can be use the same way as the original Lightbringer was used... AGAINST THE OTHERS

The first Sword used was Lightbringer. So any sword made the same way will work against the Others ( All the Valyrian Swords will work against the Others)

Edited by Know Face Man, 05 March 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[Dragonfish]

Apple Martini, on 05 March 2012 - 12:23 AM, said:

I did see that, on a reread. I think it has some holes that could be addressed — where did the dragons come from and where did they go? — but I agree that it could be the case, sure.

George said in a SSM that there were dragons all over once. Don't know where they went, but I assume they either migrated or died out.

[PatrickStormborn]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

But what makes you think that fire and blood can or will save the realm? You keep talking about the dragons "uniting the country" and "saving the realm" in broad general terms. All I'm asking is for you to speak plainly and specifically. What is it, specifically, about the dragons that can heal the country?

I thought it was quite clear. Aegon and his sisters used the dragons to conquer and unite the seven kingdoms. No one is strong enough to go against the Field of Fire. This would stop the other claimants from tearing the country apart even further, as they would unite under the ruler with the dragons. What about this is so difficult to understand? Jon Snow, Stannis, Cersei, Roose Bolton, Euron Greyjoy, "Aegon" ... none of them have the power to unite the realm. Whoever has the dragons has the power to unite Westeros.

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

I was under the impression that fire was only effective against wights. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone can correct me.

I don't think this has been officially stated. We know that dragonglass kills Others but does not kill wights. Fire kills wights, but we don't know if it kills Others. I don't see why it wouldn't.

In addition I wouldn't call the theory that the dragons are Lightbringer "obvious". Is it obvious for anyone who's read the books in as much detail as we have? Probably. And yet a lot of posters on this board still haven't considered the idea. Most people who are casual readers of the books are probably still waiting for a red sword (like a lot of posters here).

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Nope, sorry, whoever has the dragons has the power to subjugate Westeros by force, and that's not the same than unite people to fight a common cause.

[A Free Shadow]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

But what about the dragons makes sense in the "friends and savior" aspect? No one has answered the damn question. What will the dragons DO to save people? I wouldn't be putting too much faith in a cheap deus ex development where they neatly and cleanly destroy the Others at the last minute. I doubt it will be that easy.

Dragons can simply be there, fighting, destroying something here and there. Renly's breastplate was all it took for people to cheer Renly as a saviour at Blackwater. Because it is shiny, it is mhystical. And Tyrion with his ugly half nose could have gone to hell even if had done at least half of a job.

Edited by A Free Shadow, 05 March 2012 - 11:01 AM.