88 replies to this topic

[Baitac]

Jon Flowers, on 03 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yes indeed, see the last sentence I wrote.  It's a pretty alien concept to us in the west and so we tend to shoehorn it in with our own aphorisms.  I'd just like to point out its true meaning since so few seem to be aware of it and if that leads anyone to do some studying then so much the better.  Study are research are beautiful things.

Totally agree. Plus Buddhism is awesome.

[Bastard Walder]

ServantOnIce, on 03 March 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I haven't read all the posts in this topic, but Ned's sin wasn't killing Lady, it was killing the deserter from the Nights Watch.  The guy really saw White Walkers/Others . .and instead of killing him like a dude who was trying to cut and run, this dude was in real fear and in real terror . . should have been inquired and should have been taken back to the Wall for them to decide what to do with him.

This is false.

[Ludovica]

Hear Us Roar, on 03 March 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

killing the dog was not a sin

Killing lady was the most horrific scene in a series that has pretty horrific scenes.  Storytelling-wise it's as bad as it can get.  Your own dad kills your innocent pet? c'mon!  I care more about that pup that about a deserter who knew what he would get.  Furthermore, I think GRRM does too.

[Bastard Walder]

Ludovica, on 03 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Killing lady was the most horrific scene in a series that has pretty horrific scenes.  Storytelling-wise it's as bad as it can get.  Your own dad kills your innocent pet? c'mon!  I care more about that pup that about a deserter who knew what he would get.  Furthermore, I think GRRM does too.

No, no. Animals aren't people, therefore it's okay to kill them. I mean who does she think she is, not being born a human?

[Ludovica]

Jon Flowers, on 03 March 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

This isn't really what karma is or how it functions.

I know.  But it seemed like a good word to put on the title's thread to summarize what I mean.  Also, there's already a thread headed "As we sin so we are punished".

[ServantOnIce]

Bastard Walder, on 03 March 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

This is false.

How is that false?  Did Eddard see the Others/White Walkers ?

Edited by ServantOnIce, 03 March 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[brashcandy]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 March 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

Sansa.- is a vapid ninny who treats other people (her own brother and sister) like objects, becomes a pawn in Lord Littlefinger's game of thrones.

Don't be ridiculous. Everyone was a pawn in LF's (and Varys') game, from Sansa's own parents, to the high and mighty Lannisters. LF, despite being a pervert and madman, is actually still trying to teach Sansa something valuable about game playing and making the right moves.

Anyways, my own contribution:

What about Joffrey? He always went on about how his mother told him a King should never beat his lady, so he let his KG beat Sansa instead. I thought it was the height of karmic justice for him, therefore, that he's killed by the strength of Sansa's word, but not her deed. She only brought the hairnet to the feast, but the Tyrells were responsible for putting the poison in Joff's drink. Clean hands are important.

[Jerritus]

ServantOnIce, on 03 March 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

How is that false?  Did Eddard see the Others/White Walkers ?

The law states that NW deserters are to be punished by death. No need to take them to the Wall, or question them, for that matter.

Anyway, I agree that Ned should have asked him some questions once he saw that the dude was seriously messed up, so something must've happened.

But everything said and done, Ned didn't actually do anything wrong in just straight out decapitating him.

[Gala]

Ananta, on 03 March 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

The law states that NW deserters are to be punished by death. No need to take them to the Wall, or question them, for that matter.

Anyway, I agree that Ned should have asked him some questions once he saw that the dude was seriously messed up, so something must've happened.

But everything said and done, Ned didn't actually do anything wrong in just straight out decapitating him.

Agree, he should have, but I've never understood why didn't  the deserter go to the Wall? Because he gone mad? He said that he saw WW to  Ned and everyone before execution, but why he didn't go to the Wall and tell his brothers the truth? It was highly unlikely that he really saw them, because WW haven't been seen for thousand of years (or how many?). I just didn't get that.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Gala, on 03 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Agree, he should have, but I've never understood why didn't  the deserter go to the Wall? Because he gone mad? He said that he saw WW to  Ned and everyone before execution, but why he didn't go to the Wall and tell his brothers the truth? It was highly unlikely that he really saw them, because WW haven't been seen for thousand of years (or how many?). I just didn't get that.

It's called being in a state of shock...

[Petyr Middlefinger Baelish]

Gala, on 03 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Agree, he should have, but I've never understood why didn't  the deserter go to the Wall? Because he gone mad? He said that he saw WW to  Ned and everyone before execution, but why he didn't go to the Wall and tell his brothers the truth? It was highly unlikely that he really saw them, because WW haven't been seen for thousand of years (or how many?). I just didn't get that.

A quick execution is preferable to fighting WW at the wall. Doubt he would want to risk becoming a wight.

[Gala]

Thank you, Ororo727 and Petyr Middlefinger Baelish! I presume the combination of both your answers is the correct one.

[Baitac]

Gala, on 03 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Agree, he should have, but I've never understood why didn't  the deserter go to the Wall? Because he gone mad? He said that he saw WW to  Ned and everyone before execution, but why he didn't go to the Wall and tell his brothers the truth? It was highly unlikely that he really saw them, because WW haven't been seen for thousand of years (or how many?). I just didn't get that.

I thought it was odd that he walked a long way from where he saw the WW. Seeng how long it took Bran and his group to get to the wall, it just seems like it was a long distance from their ranging area.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Ned is not killed for killing Lady, but the innocent deserter of the Night's Watch in beginning of the books. That sealed his death.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Catastrophe, on 03 March 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Regarding Tywin, I think some people are taking the OP's comment too literally. It's not really about the rumors that he shit gold, that's just a way of highlighting his pride. The karmic irony is that he was a supremely proud and dignified man who always tried to present himself as being flawless, yet he died in a extremely humiliating way. The fact that he didn't shit gold was basically karma's way of proving that, for all his pretensions, he was really just another human being, no better than anyone else.

I also think that Jaime's fate was karmic retribution, not because he lost the hand that pushed Bran, but because like Bran he's now a cripple incapable of doing the thing he loved most.

Another Comedy here is that bran so much wanted to become a renowned Knight in future, a Kingsguard, like Jaime Lannister, who threw him from the tower and crippled his dream.   Do you see that

I'd mention Kevan's demise as well. While he was a fundamentally decent guy, he spent his whole life following his older brother's lead, and went along with all of Tywin's plans even when he knew they were wrong. Ultimately, he ends up following Tywin even in the manner of his death.

Going further back, Aerys insisted that Jaime be the one member of the Kingsguard to stay behind in King's Landing to protect him. It's implied that he did so purely because he got a sadistic kick out of forcing the boy to fight against his own family, yet because of such needless cruelty he inadvertently ended up ordering his own execution.

[Silver Spearwife]

As far as the OP's list goes, I'd like to make two comments:

Firstly, unlike the other deaths on the list, Vargo Hoat's is deliberately ironic. They didn't just cut off his feet because they felt like it - they did it because that was what he was known for. (Not saying it's any less ironic, just throwing it out there).

Secondly, regarding Tywin. In addition to the pride thing that Catastrophe mentioned, Tywin was killed by the one person he did his best to make life miserable for. Tywin torments and humiliates Tyrion regularly, Tyrion kills Tywin in pretty much the most degrading way he could have.

[hombay]

Jorah enslaved people and later becomes a slave himself.

[The Red Hand]

ServantOnIce, on 03 March 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I haven't read all the posts in this topic, but Ned's sin wasn't killing Lady, it was killing the deserter from the Nights Watch.  The guy really saw White Walkers/Others . .and instead of killing him like a dude who was trying to cut and run, this dude was in real fear and in real terror . . should have been inquired and should have been taken back to the Wall for them to decide what to do with him.

Eddard in a since was guilty of treason, he did say in open court seize the King and Queen and kids, that is treason . .  even though Eddard was right and did what was right, he still violated the law, that is GRRM Karma.

Now an example I can think of is that is Tywin hated Tyrion and tried to have him killed by leading the assault with his "savages"  then ends up getting killed by Tyrion.

I don't think Ned was wrong to kill the deserter. The fact that he actually saw white walkers means it was even more important for him to not desert. He still had to somehow get past the wall in order to desert anyway...Ned had to do it.

[The Red Hand]

Don't know if someone said this already but, Theon listened to Ramsey and murdered an innocent family, then he was forced to be Ramsay's slave until he wanted to die himself. Theres a little bit of karma in that I think.

[Maester Rigney]

Ludovica, on 03 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Killing lady was the most horrific scene in a series that has pretty horrific scenes.  Storytelling-wise it's as bad as it can get.  Your own dad kills your innocent pet? c'mon!  I care more about that pup that about a deserter who knew what he would get.  Furthermore, I think GRRM does too.

The NWman dying for deserting is just as tragic or more-so than Lady.  Just because he knew the punishment for desertion was death does not make the punishment fair. He is a human being, capable of far deeper emotions than a direwolf (dog).

Besides, Ned wasn't punished for killing Lady.  Sansa's punishment for lying was that Lady was killed.  Sansa knew what happened and she didn't tell the truth because lying seemed to suit her better.  Also, she was probably afraid.

Ned killing Lady is so insignificant in his death.  Only a deranged PETA fanatic would think a person deserved to die for doing what Ned did.

ETA - and what Ned did was give a quick death to an animal that was probably in line for worse.

Edited by Maester Rigney, 19 June 2012 - 01:12 AM.