399 replies to this topic

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

I'm pretty sure I'm not drunk, yet I see Shryke and Ser Greguh arguing on my side.  I need to check the bar for empty bottles.

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Question: would gun owners approve of guns being treated like cars, where people are generally allowed and expected to own a gun unless they choose otherwise, but have to pass a basic gun owner's test, (with the possibility of one's license being taken away for misuse) or would you prefer no limits, nothing except walk into a store, lay down your money, walk out with a gun?

Remember that in the United States gun ownership is a legal right on par with freedom of speech/press/religion etc.  I fully disagree with licensing, as everyone knew that I would.  I'm nervy on the whole background check thing, but I'm not out protesting it either.

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Yes, a lot of gun violence would not disappear entirely - but it's not as if 1 in 3 Americans are recreational users of guns (compared to the estimates about recreational drug use).

Actually, it's totally like that.

http://www.opposingv...ship-in-america


Based upon surveys analyzed by the Web site Just Facts, there are 47-53 million households where guns are present -- that's 40%-45% of all households in the country.
About 30 to 34% of American adults say the own a gun, translating into 70 to 80 million people who own those 300 million guns. A 2005 Gallup poll shows 47% of men in the country own a gun, while among women that figure is just 13%.
Republicans own more guns than Democrats -- 41% to 23%.
The same poll showed that owning a gun for protection was more important that having it for sport. Roughly 67% of Americans said they kept a gun to defend themselves against potential crime. Meanwhile, 66% said they possesses a gun because of target practice, and 41% said hunting. Obviously, people could pick more than one reason for their decision to own a firearm.


Those figures are from 2005.  Every year since 2007 has broken records for new gun sales, ammo sales, first-time gun buys, and concealed carry permit issues.

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That's already the case, though. AFAIK all automatic weapons are already illegal, but gangs and such are still able to get ahold of them.

They aren't illegal, the ATF just makes them a pain in the ass to get ahold of (the ATF might be the most clusterfucked agency in the Federal Government, and that's saying something).  Basically you pay an extra $200, wait for a second background check, and wait 6 months for the ATF to pull it's head of out it's ass.  My wife really wants this internally suppressed target rifle down at the local spot, but I'm not sure I want to pay a $200 tax on a $450 rifle (the ATF treats suppressors like machine guns, which is ironic, since legal gun owners can get suppressors really easily in Europe).

Also, since the National Firearms Act, only 2 legally owned machine guns have been used in crimes.  One of those was by a police officer.

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You should read what i was responding to, it helps usually. I made mention of the fact that Americans are shotting each other all over the place, he said the rates were going down, and i agreed. Only that they were ridiculously high compared to other first world nations

What you don't realize is that this has always been the case.  When gun ownership was unrestricted in the US and the UK, the US still had a murder rate 2 or 3 times that of the UK.    Today, the UK actually has more violent crime per capita than the US.  They just don't use guns as much

http://www.telegraph...-of-Europe.html

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Now, I do think we need to do something about all the guns that flood the black market...we could start by transferring all drug enforcement personnel to gun law enforcement.  

Probably a bad idea, considering your stated goal...

http://en.wikipedia....oject_Gunrunner

Edited by Tormund Midgetsbane, 09 March 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[Raidne]

I'm thinking that nobody arguing in favor of restrictions, or saying that the NRA is a bunch of nutbars for thinking people want to take their guns away, has actually read a gun law or, for that matter, listened to themselves since many of you are in fact saying what guns you'd like to take away while calling people crazy for thinking you want to take their guns away.

Terra, you are particularly wrong. The

[Ser Greguh]

ljkeane, on 09 March 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

There are plenty of practical issues that would be presented in applying, for example, a complete ban on handguns in the US but simplistic comparisons to the market for illegal drugs aren't overly helpful.

It's not simplistic.  Okay, so there is greater production inelasticity with regard to guns; that doesn't mean that supply wouldn't catch up to demand, and it's not as if the concept of a "gun runner" is a new one.  These are very very basic microeconomic principles.

[TrackerNeil]

The Sinister Kid, on 08 March 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

http://www.nejm.org/...=featured_home

More evidence that Medicare spending is slowing:

Thanks for this. I predict that, when all is said and done, and assuming the Republican repeal jihad fails, the ACA will one day be regarded as essential as Medicare. Americans will wonder how we got by without it.

[Ser Greguh]

lupis42, on 09 March 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Only issue I'd take with this is that generally, it makes much more sense to focus on the problem of violence than on the problem of gun violence.

I disagree with this.  Gun violence does have this annoying habit of turning fatal a great deal more quickly than most other forms of violence.

[Raidne]

Sorry, posting from phone, technical problems. Anyway, gun rights were an open question until the last couple court cases, which fundamentally changed things.

So when you say golly gee it's not like laws never change, it sounds kind of stupid because it's about as likely as the Court deciding that the Equal Protection clause doesn't mandate Equal Protection. K is right - it's settled law now. Issue over. Get over it. You can ruminate over what restrictions you want all day long but most of them are going to require an Amendment. Specifically a hand gun ban as that is the one thing the Court has explicitly stated you cannot do. Talking about a handgun ban is literally a waste of breath.

[IheartTesla]

I'm a crazy librul who likes firing guns too. But at the same time, I'd like to take some guns away from the general populace, have a national registry of owned firearms and possibly tighten up the way third party sales are done.

For third party sales (by which i mean one individual selling to another) I'm thinking of something similar to the title of a car.

Edited by IheartTesla, 09 March 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Raidne too now?

My birthday isn't for another month guys.

[ljkeane]

Ser Greguh, on 09 March 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's not simplistic.  Okay, so there is greater production inelasticity with regard to guns; that doesn't mean that supply wouldn't catch up to demand, and it's not as if the concept of a "gun runner" is a new one.

It doesn't mean that supply wouldn't catch up to demand but it would make it far far more difficult for supply to match a high level of demand in the manner seen with recreational drugs.

Ser Greguh, on 09 March 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

These are very very basic microeconomic principles.

Actually the very very basic microeconomic principle would be that in response to the changes in the production environment the supply curve would shift significantly and demand would adjust to the new prices bringing a new equilibrium at potentially a far lower quantity of guns.

Edited by ljkeane, 09 March 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Raidne]

Come on T, I've been pro second amendment rights for at least a decade. My parents have a shooting range in the yard, no joke.

[Ser Greguh]

ljkeane, on 09 March 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

a far lower quantity of guns.

But still more than enough to sustain every last bit of gun violence in the country.  Demand would plummet, but only among people that value the law to begin with, which has this amazing inverse correlation with potential perpetrators of firearm-related crime.  Never mind that we're talking about a magical hypothetical here anyway.

[awesome possum]

Are we really still talking about freaking guns?

Like them or don't like them, they're not going anywhere any time soon.

[lupis42]

Ser Greguh, on 09 March 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

I disagree with this.  Gun violence does have this annoying habit of turning fatal a great deal more quickly than most other forms of violence.

I agree in principle, but focusing on gun violence is what has lead some anti-gun activists to suggest that, for example, 2 knife murders/hundred people would be a better society than 1 gun murder/hundred people.  Concentrating on causes rather than means usually gives much better results.

[ljkeane]

Ser Greguh, on 09 March 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Demand would plummet, but only among people that value the law to begin with, which has this amazing inverse correlation with potential perpetrators of firearm-related crime.

Which market do you think the guns that end up in the black market were originally produced for? It would take time but if there was the political will to take action of course the supply of illegal guns would go down because there's no way that nonindustrialised small scale black market producers are going to be able to match the hundreds of thousands if not millions of guns that apparently pass into the illegal market for guns in the US every year.

Edited by ljkeane, 09 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

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Which market do you think the guns that end up in the black market were originally produced for? It would take time but if there was the political will to take action of course the supply of illegal guns would go down because there's no way that nonindustrialised small scale black market producers are going to be able to match the hundreds of thousands if not millions of guns that apparently pass into the illegal market for gunsin the US every year.

But as my original post stated, and as Raidne eloquently confirmed and Kouran ineloquently confirmed, the RIGHT to own a handgun is established law.  The same way that freedom of speech is established law.  This debate is already won.

[Ser Greguh]

lupis42, on 09 March 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

I agree in principle, but focusing on gun violence is what has lead some anti-gun activists to suggest that, for example, 2 knife murders/hundred people would be a better society than 1 gun murder/hundred people.  Concentrating on causes rather than means usually gives much better results.

Well okay, yeah, that's just fucking stupid.  My perspective is, it just so happens that gun violence is the low-hanging fruit in our society when it comes to the murder rate.  If we had a spectacular problem with people beating each other to death with avocados, I'd suggest a strategy focusing on reducing avocado-related violence. I'm a pragmatist.

[TrackerNeil]

Tormund Midgetsbane, on 09 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

But as my original post stated, and as Raidne eloquently confirmed and Kouran ineloquently confirmed, the RIGHT to own a handgun is established law.  The same way that freedom of speech is established law.  This debate is already won.

And, honestly, I'd rather these nutjobs spend their time advocating against gun-control laws than doing damage somewhere else. Let them have their pistols if it makes them feel better.

[ljkeane]

Tormund Midgetsbane, on 09 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

But as my original post stated, and as Raidne eloquently confirmed and Kouran ineloquently confirmed, the RIGHT to own a handgun is established law.  The same way that freedom of speech is established law.  This debate is already won.

Mate I live in the UK where the debate is already won as well. It's a discussion board, I'm sharing my opinion. If we're going to rule out sharing opinions on subjects were the status quo is unlikely to change in the forseeable future I think you're going to have to reconsider posting much on the nature of government in the future.

[Triskele]

Raidne, on 09 March 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Come on T, I've been pro second amendment rights for at least a decade. My parents have a shooting range in the yard, no joke.

Shooting range + Raidne's mom = Trisky is afraid

[TerraPrime]

Raidne, on 09 March 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Talking about a handgun ban is literally a waste of breath.

Whatever.