18 replies to this topic

[Stark@heart]

My ongoing Crack Pot Theory is that history is repeating itself in the Westeros.  Maybe it's all that magic floating around.

I see the current Game of Thrones as a repeat of both the Blackfyre rebellion and the Dance of Dragons now that we have two legit Targs to fight over the Iron Throne. I have no idea if YG is the real Aegon.  It's atleast a 50/50 possibility at this point is the series.  I think Tyrion says it best.  Something like we are all puppets and pick up the strings of our fathers & mothers and carry on.

Queen Cersei is now filling the role most recently vacated by Aerys as The Mad Queen/King of the Westeros, since Viserys didn't make it. IIRC there was a Targ that was supposedly killed by the Iron Throne.  Was is Maegar the Cruel?  Viserys could be said to have filled this role, since it was a (golden) crown that killed him. An office of Kingship, like a Throne.

The Starks have once more been betrayed by the Boltons.  Hell, it was probably Roose's idea to cut Robb's head off and switch it with Greywinds.  Either that or Old Man Walder is ever freakin crazier that I would have thought..... and I still suspect Roose of taking a keepsake to hang on the wall at home.  May the Others take him!

Jamie and Briene ala Dunk & Egg traveling through the Seven Kingdoms with Jamie learning about honor and humility from an unlikely "knight".

Stannis, I believe is doomed to become the Night King come again.  Mel is his pale and unnatural woman/Queen and he's already given her 2 children and will soon bend the Nights Watch to his will.

Perhaps in the past another Red Priestess journeyed to the Wall.  The description would mostly fit except for the eyes so you got me there... Unless, no one really knows what color her eyes were.  How close could those who were the enemy of the Night King and his Queen actually get and still live?  Or maybe they were red but later were recalled as blue because that fits with the folklore/ myths of the North.  Maybe red eyes were too weird or unlikely.  That part's kinda way out there but that what crackpottings all about right?


Anyway,  these are the examples that keep jumping out at me.  What do you think?

[epiphling]

Cersei is more like Robert, in my opinion, than she is like Aerys. The heavy boozing, the rampant sleeping around, the stupid decisions she makes, the psychotic hatreds she nurtures in her heart, the inability to listen to anything that contradicts the points she wants to believe.

I don't see Aerys here. I see Robert with boobs.

[Gurkhal]

I personally think its a major theme to see history repeat itself although often in a slightly different form and outcome than before. Just off the top of my head:

Tywin Lannisters vs Lord Reyne: a young lord against a more known lord - Tywin Lannisters vs Robb Stark

Brandon and Rickard Stark going south to be killed by a mad king - Eddard and Robb Stark going south

Aerys provoking a major war by needlessly executing nobles - Joffrey provoking a major war by needlessly executing Eddard Stark

Lannister and Gardener against Aegon the Conqueror - Lannister and Tyrell against Aegon "the Punk"

Tully gaining domainance over the Riverlands by rising up against their king - Frey gaining a domainant position in the Riverlands by betraying their king (treachery seems like somewhat of a Riverland characteristic)

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Basic themes in history always repeat themselves. We can always draw parallels between the present and the past, or between one event in the past to another event in the longer past. The same is true for Westeros. Notice how many people are able to draw parallels between real-world history and the history of Westeros?

It seems like your theory is suggesting something stronger than this, a magical force that is ensuring that certain people fill certain roles in an ever-repeating history. And that I don't really buy. I think history repeats itself only broadly speaking, but not down to specific events, individuals, or outcomes.

[Zar Lannister]

Hmm... that's an interesting idea.

I am more prone to think Cersei emulates Catelyn more than any of the other power-holders. (Someone who's in a position of certain power, but that really has no control).

Though I think Cersei will not be the Mad King reborn because I don't think she will handle the power in KL. She will be one of the many fighting for it, for sure... from the inside. With Kevan and Pycelle gone, Cersei basically has no allies in the Kingdom other than Qyburn.

I want her to gather herself a bit (just like when she was in the dinner with Kevan), on the hopes of seeing her more evil cunning mode. Of course, she will always carry the tint of Paranoia.

[Early Earl]

Zar Lannister, on 05 March 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Hmm... that's an interesting idea.

I am more prone to think Cersei emulates Catelyn more than any of the other power-holders. (Someone who's in a position of certain power, but that really has no control).

Lannisters... *shakes head sadly*
Yes, they were both mothers conscerned for their children, but that's it. Cersei has a much stronger urge to *control* things, to be accepted as a player in a male game. Catelyn seemed quite contend with her role as Ned's advisor. The only big descision she makes is capturing Tyrion, and although it had to be done quickly, it doesn't read as if it was an easy one for her. Cersei isn't second-guessing herself that much.
So yes, I think she fits the Mad king profile most, from the proposed. Robert didn't have her paranoia for one. Maybe because he was a likable guy and had made some friends over the years. Overall he was rather neglecting his duties while Cersei actively messes around there.

Zar Lannister, on 05 March 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Though I think Cersei will not be the Mad King reborn because I don't think she will handle the power in KL. She will be one of the many fighting for it, for sure... from the inside. With Kevan and Pycelle gone, Cersei basically has no allies in the Kingdom other than Qyburn.

One thing that stood out to me after reading ADWD was

Spoiler

that the walk of shame really seemed to have changed her too much. I simply didn't buy it. There was this line iirc, where she says sth like "and later the septa will pray with me trallali happy bunnies". Simply not buying it. She will weasel herself in again, I'm sure, after all she is still queen regent.

Zar Lannister, on 05 March 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I want her to gather herself a bit (just like when she was in the dinner with Kevan), on the hopes of seeing her more evil cunning mode. Of course, she will always carry the tint of Paranoia.

So to answer the OP's theory: I'm not sure it's some magically "wheel of time" thing or rather some classic themes that can always be observed when there's struggle for power. But the parallels are definitly there.

[Victaerys Ironfist]

I think OP is just listing examples of recurring themes, such as betrayal, corruption, rebellion etc.

[str8 outta Old Town]

Stark@heart, on 03 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

Jamie and Briene ala Dunk & Egg traveling through the Seven Kingdoms with Jamie learning about honor and humility from an unlikely "knight".

I think GRRM is definitely aware of the whole Marxist repeating history theory, as well as Larkin's view of parenthood. I'm quite new here though, everybody else thinks Brienne has decided to trade J's life for her own and Pod's right? It would show she's finally caught herself on, and there's few deserve stringing up more than blondie.

[tze]

I think it's pretty clear that events in Westeros's past are paralleling events in Westeros's present, just with some key elements altered. There are pretty strong parallels between Cersei/Jaime/Robert and Naerys/Aemon the Dragonknight/Robert Baratheon, Myrcella/the first Daenerys, Tommen/Dareon, Dany/Aegon the Conqueror, Robb Stark/Dareon I, Bran/Baelor the Blessed, etc., etc. It's just that in all of these instances, at least one (often more than one) key element has shifted, which means that what resulted the first time around won't necessarily be the same this time around. I don't think that's "magic", but more of a literary device.

[The Bastard of Walton]

If Cersi is playing the role of Aerys, she will be killed by a member of the Kings Gaurd. I've been thinking for a while that Jaime would kill Cersi, maybe he will keep his role of Kingslayer.

[Timmay]

I think the "Kingslayer scene" will be repeated but with a different king and different KingsGuard:

aSoS

“And I have seen it in the flames as well. R’hllor has blessed me with that gift. Like Lady Melisandre, he shows me the future in the fire. Stannis Baratheon will sit the Iron Throne. I have seen it.”

aCoK 687 From the Knight captured in the Battle of the Blackwater who would not swear fealty to Joff.

“The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!”

aCoK p422 Brienne addressing Cat.

”And I think, when the time comes, you will not try to hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis.”

Cat

”When the time comes, I will not hold you back.”

Perhaps even Lady Stoneheart will not hold her back...
aCoK 420 Cat

”You mean to kill Stannis.”

Brienne

”I swore a vow. Three times I swore. You heard me.”

In aSoS Jaime IX; Jaime gives Brienne the Valyrian steel sword his father gifted to him named Oathkeeper. I say Stannis sits the Iron Throne as King and Brienne Offs him.
Ok, so I don’t have a quote for this: Brienne ends with a shield painted to match Ser Dunk the Tall’s shield. Former commander of the Kings Guard. IMHO that is no mere coincidence, GRMM did that for a reason.
Now how about some fun with Timmay’s wild speculation. Brienne becomes the first Female member of the King’s Guard carrying a former LC's sheild, Jaime gets her appointed (he’s LC afterall). Then Stannis gains the Iron Throne. And a second king gets his neck sliced by one of his White Cloaks (freaking awesome). Vindicating Jaime’s actions to both him and Brienne with the sword he gave her. And Brienne’s acceptance of Jaime comes full circle. Potential for some great writing in there...

[Winter's Knight]

Timmay, on 06 March 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Ok, so I don’t have a quote for this: Brienne ends with a shield painted to match Ser Dunk the Tall’s shield. Former commander of the Kings Guard. IMHO that is no mere coincidence, GRMM did that for a reason.
Now how about some fun with Timmay’s wild speculation. Brienne becomes the first Female member of the King’s Guard carrying a former LC's sheild, Jaime gets her appointed (he’s LC afterall). Then Stannis gains the Iron Throne. And a second king gets his neck sliced by one of his White Cloaks (freaking awesome). Vindicating Jaime’s actions to both him and Brienne with the sword he gave her. And Brienne’s acceptance of Jaime comes full circle. Potential for some great writing in there...

I so want this-Brienne joins Jamie as a Kingslayer.

[Fire Eater]

Cersei has the best of both kings, Aerys and Robert, and more.

As much as she hated Robert she has become him: complains about ruling, drinks heavily, gets fat and has sex with multiple partners.

Her brother slew Mad King Aerys only to indirectly put another in his place: paranoia to the point the monarch believes his/her family members(Aerys: whole family, Cersei: Kevan) are conspiring against him/her, fascination with wildfire and is fearful of a certain Lannister(Aerys: Tywin Cersei: Tyrion) that the ruler mistreated, who served well as Hand of the King.

To top it off, she fills her small council with lickspittles who kiss her ass constantly. As Tyrion states:

Quote

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance.

A little foreshadowing one might think.

Edited by Fire Eater, 28 June 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[Rheagar Prime]

i do agree history does have a way of repeating its self.

[thunder_chicken]

I agree with Cercei becoming the next mad "king"- I think Qyburn pulls her into a downward spiral and we'll see some really freaky stuff by the end. I imagine when Robert Strong is not off menacing people, he will be guarding Tommon night and day, effectively keeping Qyburn in power. Tyrells and church are freaked out and want Qyburn gone once his nature becomes more apparent, but Cercei/Tommen protect him, and at the same time Cercei depends on Qyburn to maintain her power in KL.  If we want to take the paralleling step a little farther, Qyburn's death magic, somehow tied to Winter/wights/others, will be the nuclear option, but ice this time, instead of Aerys' pyromancers' fire.

[Lord Warhammer]

epiphling, on 05 March 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Cersei is more like Robert, in my opinion, than she is like Aerys. The heavy boozing, the rampant sleeping around, the stupid decisions she makes, the psychotic hatreds she nurtures in her heart, the inability to listen to anything that contradicts the points she wants to believe.

I don't see Aerys here. I see Robert with boobs.

Robert was never "Mad" only drunk. Cersei is clearly touched. Aerys is a better fit for her persona. Robert was forgiving and likeable, Cersi not so much.

[Summer is Ending]

She certainly does share some of the Targ tendencies from wanting Arya to lose the hand she hit Joff with to the puppet show coming full cirlce.

[Daenerys is my queen]

Cersei the Mad Queen, I like it. History indeed does repeat itself. I wonder what that could mean for who gets the throne in the end. *cough cough please let it be Dany GRRM*

[My Fair Lady]

epiphling, on 05 March 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Cersei is more like Robert, in my opinion, than she is like Aerys. The heavy boozing, the rampant sleeping around, the stupid decisions she makes, the psychotic hatreds she nurtures in her heart, the inability to listen to anything that contradicts the points she wants to believe.

I don't see Aerys here. I see Robert with boobs.

Good point about Stannis here, OP, and one I had not thought of or heard of on these forums. I fully agree and have thought of the parallels between Jaime and Brienne vs. Dunk and Egg many times. I also agree with this quoted post. I don't think Cersei will become very much like Aerys, only because in my opinion, she will soon be stripped of her power or killed, or both. Robert with boobs! Best thing I've read all day, and I concur. She is becoming the mirror image of the one person she hates the most. I think that will be her ultimate downfall, and I hope Tyrion or Jaime will be the one who points this out to her!