112 replies to this topic

[She-wolf Arya]

I'm new to forums in general so sorry if this has been answered (tried the search and didn't find anything).

In a Dance with Dragons (hardcover page 645-646) Jamie's chapter - Brienne is clearly alive - and it seems that she is lying about Sansa and the Hound - since she is in the Vale and the Hound is presumably dead.

We know that Lady Stoneheart or Cat is now full of revenge and seems a bit less rational than before (I know this is up for debate) but my question is about Brienne and what everyone thinks about the situation. Did they kill her and then resurrect her at a point to of irrationality? Did she convince herself that she needs to kill Jamie because her oath is to Cat not Jaime? If "brainwashing" is possible will they do that with Jaime? So many different scenarios can happen. I LOVE Brienne and I can't believe that she would willingly put Jaime in harm's way. Especially because of the respect they have developed for one another.

What are everyone's thoughts??

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

brainwashed. no.
blackmailed. yes.
we have seen no sign of Hyle Hunt and Pod

3 lousy skins for one - best trade she could get

[Lady Kraken]

I think Brienne changed her mind about hanging instead of killing Jaime when she saw Podrick about to die. My guess is that she's bringing Jaime back in exchange for Pod and Hyle's lives, but I'm not sure if she has some kind of plan for when they arrive there. It's hard for me to believe that she'd lead Jaime to his imminent death too, but how could she let someone as adorable as Pod die like that??

[Lady Octarina]

I agree the idea of her tricking Jaime into a dangerous situation, or killing him herself, is horrible, but I doubt she was brainwashed. As others have said, I think she's only doing this to save Pod's life, a child's life - remember that her last thoughts on her POV in AFFC before hanging are directed at him, at her horror at seeing him hanged. But I don't think she agreed o actually kill him, only to take him to those caves to be killed by someone else. I mean, the guy lost his sword hand, it won't take a skilled warrior to bring him down, and her taking him to the BwB will probably be enough to make UnCat trust her again or something.

What I'm really curious about is whose POV will tell us this story? Brienne's or Jaime's? I certainly wished to read both versions, but that's really unlikely...

[Jem]

No, I don't think she has been brainwashed. I think that this will be a major development for Brienne's character.

Brienne is one of the most honorable characters in the story and it is important to her to maintain her "knightly" virtues. So what is going to happen when she is forced to face up to the two people to which she has sworn a vow? What happens when these two people hate each other bitterly (or at least one hates the other)? Who will Brienne serve? What choices will she have to make? How will she be able to reconcile her honor with her choices?

GRRM has made it clear that nothing is clear and nothing is easy - not power, not honor, not glory. The latter two make good horse names, but that is it. People have to make complicated choices in life and life isn't always a basket of roses.

[Clueless Northman]

Jem, on 05 March 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Brienne is one of the most honorable characters in the story and it is important to her to maintain her "knightly" virtues. So what is going to happen when she is forced to face up to the two people to which she has sworn a vow?
GRRM has made it clear that nothing is clear and nothing is easy - not power, not honor, not glory. The latter two make good horse names, but that is it. People have to make complicated choices in life and life isn't always a basket of roses.

For once, I'll abstain from posting crackpot theories.

It is quite ironical that these are points Jaime made repeatedly in the last books; he knows very well such dilemmas and that sometimes you're forced to choose the lesser of two conflicting yet binding evils. If the whole mess is explained to him, he might understand. At the very least, his reaction will be very interesting.

[The Smelly Peasant]

IIRC Brienne says that Jaime must come with her "alone". He has been around long enough to be able to smell a rat, so it will be fascinating to see how he responds. Also, the impact of the snowstorm on this whole caper....would put the two of them together in time to smote some Others with their Valyrian steel

[lostinwesteros]

I can't see Brienne deceiving Jaime -- just don't think deception is in her nature.  I am dying to know what word she shouted at the point of hanging, but somehow I don't think she is taking Jaime to unCat.  My theory (well, not really a theory, just the only possible thing I can think of) is that Brienne has somehow been able to locate Sansa, and that she is indeed with the Hound.  

I am sure that I sound hopelessly naive; however, we haven't had an update on Littlefinger and Sansa in forever, we are pretty sure the Hound lives, and I think Sansa has a pretty clear idea about who Littlefinger really is by now (as to his true nature).  So . . . I think it's possible that she has somehow gotten away from Littlefinger, or the Hound has gotten her away from Littlefinger (Littlefinger never has been a swordsman, right?).  So, perhaps Brienne has found Sansa and is really taking Jaime there, not to unCat.  


At any rate, I had the sense that Pod had already hung, seconds before Brienne was about to, so could she really do anything to save him?  And was that an option that unCat gave her?  Don't have my book before me, so am not sure about these points.  ???

Edited by Know Nothing, 05 March 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

I'll back KNOW NOTHING's theory - Brienne has already encountered someone, who MAY be Sandor Clegane (on rehab) at the Quiet Isle, and she might've got information according Sansa being disguised as Petyr Baelishe's daughter, descending from Eery. So she might just try to reach them both with Jaime's assistance (he's still her prince Valiant, after all). Maybe that what she promised to UnCat, for exchange of her life? So she can actually accomplish her quest without being compromised by brainwash/blackmail.

[AlexKerscher]

I think she made a deal with unCat - She will bring Jaime in exchange for Pod's life. That doesn't necessarily means that she won't imediatly kill unCat and half the BwB the moment she handles Jaime.

Having Brienne slash unCat and kill her with a single swift strike of Oathkeeper would be a nice way of saying "you see this, dear readers? Fire Wights and Ice Wights are all the same".

[SansaJo]

I doubt that Sansa is away from LF. That story arc had so much farther to go. Not just between LF and Sansa but also LFs plot to marry her to Harry the heir and possibly reclaim Winterfell (which may be just BS on LFs part to see if Sansa would kill to get Winterfell back)
I do agree, however, that Jaime is cunning enough to smell a rat, but he is also vulnerable enough right now to put his faith/life in Brienne's hands.

[She-wolf Arya]

SansaJo, on 06 March 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

I doubt that Sansa is away from LF. That story arc had so much farther to go. Not just between LF and Sansa but also LFs plot to marry her to Harry the heir and possibly reclaim Winterfell (which may be just BS on LFs part to see if Sansa would kill to get Winterfell back)
I do agree, however, that Jaime is cunning enough to smell a rat, but he is also vulnerable enough right now to put his faith/life in Brienne's hands.

Thank you everyone for your response. I was really keen on seeing what other readers thought. I do believe that Littlefinger and Sansa are on their own journey and there will be another development there showing Littlefingers plots with the Vale and retaining Winterfell (or tricking Sansa) - I think Sansa is just going with the flow right now since she believes everyone dear to her is dead and all she has is Littlefinger.

The points on Brienne making a deal to save Pod's life are really interested and I agree that this is a difficult dilemma for Brienne and it seems that she is forced to make a really tough decision. Although like another reader posted, I thought Pod hung before Brienne, however GRRM has always surprised his readers so I can't rule out the possibility that Pod is actually alive. I just hope that Brienne doesn't compromise her honor - she is one of the few characters that has retained it the whole time and I hope that she has planned something cunning.

[Lummel]

Lady Kraken, on 05 March 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

I think Brienne changed her mind about hanging instead of killing Jaime when she saw Podrick about to die. My guess is that she's bringing Jaime back in exchange for Pod and Hyle's lives, but I'm not sure if she has some kind of plan for when they arrive there. It's hard for me to believe that she'd lead Jaime to his imminent death too, but how could she let someone as adorable as Pod die like that??

That's my opinion too.  Poor Pod.  Brienne's duty as a true knight is always to protect the weak just as it was the duty that her ancestor Dunk took upon himself.

Know Nothing, on 05 March 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

...I am sure that I sound hopelessly naive; however, we haven't had an update on Littlefinger and Sansa in forever, we are pretty sure the Hound lives, and I think Sansa has a pretty clear idea about who Littlefinger really is by now (as to his true nature).  So . . . I think it's possible that she has somehow gotten away from Littlefinger, or the Hound has gotten her away from Littlefinger (Littlefinger never has been a swordsman, right?).  So, perhaps Brienne has found Sansa and is really taking Jaime there, not to unCat...

The Hound has some news of Arya (well old news now) but how would he find out anything about Sansa?  The only news the Hound has had of Sansa is what he and Arya learnt in the Inn.  And if Sansa had fled from Littlefinger how on earth would she end up with the Hound again and then with Brienne within the timescale we know about (ie the Hound would have had to have left the Quiet Isle immediately after Brienne, stolen a horse, followed her for unknown reasons and found Sansa along the way who presumably would have had to have fled the Vale immediately after her last AFFC chapter and made it to the Riverlands despite the hill tribes broken men only by pure chance to run into the Hound.  So probably not.

She-wolf Arya, on 06 March 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

...Although like another reader posted, I thought Pod hung before Brienne, however GRRM has always surprised his readers so I can't rule out the possibility that Pod is actually alive...

The way they were being hung it would have taken them a while to die.  In a modern hanging your neck is broken when the trapdoor drops (well that's the idea).  Here they are going to be choked to death which takes some time, there are 42 known cases of miraclous salvation from hangings between the years 550 and 1500 in some of which the victim had been hanging for most of the day (if you are interested Robert Barlett's book "The Hanged Man" has a far bit of detail about this).  Obviously the bruising round the neck would be significant which is why Brienne wears a scarf round her neck to hide the damage just as Beric did.

[Happy Ent]

Jem, on 05 March 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

So what is going to happen when she is forced to face up to the two people to which she has sworn a vow?

This theme was the bread and butter of this forum in the period 2006-2011. Google “Brienne’s last word” or similar threads.

To summarise: Brienne has only ever sworn one vow: her oath of allegiance to Lady Stark. Jaime, on the other hand, as solemnly sworn to never raise arms against Stark or Tully. In fact, Brienne was there when he did it.

Brienne now (correctly) thinks that Jaime has betrayed Lady Stark by taking Riverrun and generally remaining actively in the forces of King Tommen. She has heard (correctly) reports of Jaime threatening to fling babies over the ramparts of Riverrun. Brienne (probably incorrectly) thinks that Jaime was responsible for the Red Wedding (since Cat heard Roose relay Jaime’s greetings to Robb).

All in all, Brienne acts completely honourable in in according to both her chivalric code and the oath she has sworn. There is absolutely no mystery. (Except, of course, if you’re in Jaime’s brain, in which case it all seems terribly unfair. Bit like being in the brain of the Lannister deserters that Jaime hanged.)

[The Hill That Rides]

Don't you all just think its pretty impressive how quickly she found Jaimie?  Her skills, they are improving!

[AlexKerscher]

That's because after she defeated Biter she leveled up and took some Ranks in Tracking.

[Lord of Cheese]

I dont have the books on hand, but wasnt her arm badly broken? Did she have enough time to heal her arm while at the same time still having the bite on her face bandaged? She seemed to be having little trouble riding the horse and Jamie only noted her face.

[mediterraneo]

Happy Ent, on 06 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

Brienne now (correctly) thinks that Jaime has betrayed Lady Stark by taking Riverrun and generally remaining actively in the forces of King Tommen.

I just want to contest the "correctly" part. It is matter of debate, because being objective Jaime never took part in active military operations. He talked to Edmure, to the Blackfish, to the Lord of Raventree Hall. The last one had peace without even having to swear fealty. Jaime was very cautious in trying to obey to the letter of his oath. And he was 'correctly' succesful in it. Literally, no one was harmed, not in Riverrun, not at Raventree Hall. He stopped military operations everywhere he went, he did not direct them.

What Catelyn's zombie and even Brienne ('s one?) think is a completely different cake, I admit. They have little will for comprehension left to them, and they were enemies to begin with, after all. The only one person in the continent trying to bring peace rather than victory and justice rather than vengeance is not Catelyn.

Catelyn genuinely thinks that Bolton with his deathstrike was delievering to Robb a reivindication, not a greeting that was honest. Was Brienne there when Jaime and Roose were talking? Catelyn genuinely thinks that all of the Frey, Bolton and Lannister of the world must die, to avenge her side of the war but most importantly to avenge her son. That includes the mentally impaired young guy she cutted the neck to before her death and resurrection: Jaime is not safe from her vengenace.

I would like to point out something, expecially to the people telling that suffocating to death is long. Hanging by suffocation imply being inable to breath. To shout, you must push air through your throath. That is the thing that the cord prevents you to do. It is quite possible that Brienne tryed to shout her word, that the word was "sword", thus swearing to kill Jaime to save Pod (and herself). It is possible that she died without being able to make her word heard, and that her attempt to communicate was confused witht the usual dance of a hanged person dieing. It is quite possible that she was later "kissed" by Catelyn and that her "zombie" is blocked in the last task undertook before death, like Beric "bring justice to the Riverlands" and Catelyn's "Avenge your son against Lord Frey".

Brienne's zombie's task, in this quite dark scenario, would be to close the circle of perceived traisons committed with the best intentions by both her and Jaime. They never, ever meant to betray their word, their family, their loves. They never gained anything of it. But all of the world thinks they are traitors and kingslayers.

[Lummel]

Well he called and chaired a council of war, was regarded, treated and acted as commander-in-chief, so while he didn't actually wave a sword or kill anybody I think he would need a judge, jury and legal system inclined to his favour to rule that he was true to the oath he gave.  Though I'm sure the High Septon would have absolved him of it if asked to do so.

[Happy Ent]

mediterraneo, on 06 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

He stopped military operations everywhere he went, he did not direct them.

On the other hand, he threatened to fling the newborn nephew of Catelyn Stark over the ramparts of Riverrun. I’m sure that news sat pretty bad with her. (Given that, after all, he did try to kill her son.)

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The only one person in the continent trying to bring peace rather than victory and justice rather than vengeance is not Catelyn.

Ahem. Jaime brings victory. It may be peace in his POV, but it’s King Tommen’s peace. Pax Romani is peace only from the point of view of the victors.

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Was Brienne there when Jaime and Roose were talking?

Only for part of it, and that part went completely over her head. (Same as mine.) From her POV, Jaime and Roose were having strange conversations all evening. When they leave Harrenhal, they are apparently good friends. And Jaime asks Roose to send his regards. Next, Brienne hears from Lady Cat that Jaime conspired with Bolton to plan the Red Wedding. “No way!” says Brienne. Cat then tells her that Roose even gave Jaime’s regards to Robb when he slit his throat. That seals the deal for Brienne. (Or something like that.) GRRM has perversely and precisely given both Brienne and Cat all the wrong puzzle pieces (another is the baby-throwing line delivered via Tom o’Sevens) to give a very bad picture of Jaime.

(We as readers, have a different picture, of course. But also one that’s not very good. Complicit in the FakeArya scheme, hangs Lannister deserters and calls it justice, etc.)

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Jaime is not safe from her vengenace.

You don’t even need the vengeance motive to rationalise her actions. Jaime’s men are actively killing the outlaws. So the outlaws are killing them back. It’s war. Vengeance is just icing on the cake.

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Brienne's zombie's task, in this quite dark scenario, would be to close the circle of perceived traisons committed with the best intentions by both her and Jaime. They never, ever meant to betray their word, their family, their loves. They never gained anything of it. But all of the world thinks they are traitors and kingslayers.

Well put. That’s the tragic beauty of Brienne’s arc. It’s the best part in the books so far, for me.