112 replies to this topic

[She-wolf Arya]

The Hill That Rides, on 06 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Don't you all just think its pretty impressive how quickly she found Jaimie?  Her skills, they are improving!

I think she found Jamie quickly because Tom o’Sevens has infiltrated the camp (forgot the chapter but its in a Feast for Crows)

Lummel, on 06 March 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Obviously the bruising round the neck would be significant which is why Brienne wears a scarf round her neck to hide the damage just as Beric did.

On page 646 of the hardcover of a Dance with Dragons Jamie says "That bandage...you've been wounded..." "A bite." - Brienne

The bite, I believe, referencing what Biter did to her face, I do not see reference to her having bruising around her neck or wearing a scarf - I thought about that scenario but when I didn't see reference I thought hmmm maybe she wasn't being hung and then cut loose after a while. - can you show reference to where there is indication that she is wearing a scarf or has marks on her neck after being captured by Cat's men?

Also to your point on being able to survive for a long period of time when being hung - thanks for the book reference. Another interesting story was Maggie Dickson a.k.a "Half-Hanged Maggie"

[Thunderfist]

Imo this is one of the most interesting cliffhangers in ADwD. I'd just like to add one small point. After Jaime leaves Kings Landing and heads to the Riverlands with his forces, we get to read about how Jaime is constantly thinking to himself about how Robb Stark had caught him unaware in the Whispering Woods and how Jaime would NEVER let that happen again. In fact, he seems almost paranoid with having guards, scouts and sentries all over the place even when his sizeable force is close to Kings Landing. So are we supposed to believe that Jaime 'I will NEVER let anyone catch me unaware again' Lannister simply sees Brienne riding up, looking like hell and worse, and decides that he's gonna ride off alone with her to gods know where. And are we also supposed to believe that Jaime thinks that heading off to face the Hound with a cripple and a companion who looks half dead is a smart idea.

I don't know how this story will continue but I really think it would be interesting if Jaime faces Uncat and the BwB (and possibly the Blackfish) where he has a sizeable force with him. Then he would get an opportunity to really redeem himself and honor his promise to Catelyn Stark

But who knows, maybe GRRM starts skipping the logics and has Uncat hang Jaime and Brienne at which point I will light a great fire and sacrifice all of my ASoIaF books to the lord of light

[Lady Octarina]

Know Nothing, on 05 March 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

I am sure that I sound hopelessly naive; however, we haven't had an update on Littlefinger and Sansa in forever, we are pretty sure the Hound lives, and I think Sansa has a pretty clear idea about who Littlefinger really is by now (as to his true nature).  So . . . I think it's possible that she has somehow gotten away from Littlefinger, or the Hound has gotten her away from Littlefinger (Littlefinger never has been a swordsman, right?).  So, perhaps Brienne has found Sansa and is really taking Jaime there, not to unCat.  


At any rate, I had the sense that Pod had already hung, seconds before Brienne was about to, so could she really do anything to save him?  And was that an option that unCat gave her?  Don't have my book before me, so am not sure about these points.  ???

My, nothing in ASoIaF would surprise me as much as Brienne actually taking Jaime to Sansa and the Hound. Sh*t, now you made me wish that's what will happen!

As for Pod, I was under the impression he was still struggling when she shouted the word. But of course, he is just a kid, a skinny one at that, it probably takes less time for him to die hanging than a warrior like Brienne. Well, if he truly is dead, which I doubt, than I can see no reason why she would take Jaime to UnCat - which doesn't make sense, since I don't think we've seen all there is to see of the BwB at this point.

mediterraneo, on 06 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I would like to point out something, expecially to the people telling that suffocating to death is long. Hanging by suffocation imply being inable to breath. To shout, you must push air through your throath. That is the thing that the cord prevents you to do. It is quite possible that Brienne tryed to shout her word, that the word was "sword", thus swearing to kill Jaime to save Pod (and herself). It is possible that she died without being able to make her word heard, and that her attempt to communicate was confused witht the usual dance of a hanged person dieing. It is quite possible that she was later "kissed" by Catelyn and that her "zombie" is blocked in the last task undertook before death, like Beric "bring justice to the Riverlands" and Catelyn's "Avenge your son against Lord Frey".

Brienne's zombie's task, in this quite dark scenario, would be to close the circle of perceived traisons committed with the best intentions by both her and Jaime. They never, ever meant to betray their word, their family, their loves. They never gained anything of it. But all of the world thinks they are traitors and kingslayers.

I can't say I like the idea of UnBrienne, and I really don't see why UnCat would revive her, and finally die herself. Unless Thoros was the one to bring her back? Either way, I think Brienne's story has more potential if she stays alive and has to go through the dilemma of tricking Jaime or the creature who used to be Catelyn. Otherwise, she's just another walking dead with nothing but duty and revenge on her mind. Moral questions create better storylines.

About her neck, her use of a scarf or something... I remember that Jaime doesn't notice any marks, but I assumed she was wearing her armor once more, probably that part around the throat (how is it called in English? something with "gorge"?) - because, if she wasn't dressed like a knight, as usual, he would certainly notice something was amiss. Yet he makes no comment on her clothing, does he?

[Mumatil]

I think Jaime will survive the ordeal, because I believe he will kill Cersei at some point

[poor lollys]

My first reaction to Brienne showing back up was to presume she had been brought back to life, red-priest style. I assumed that she had been "revived" and then was told that her revival wa only to accomplish her mission w/o human trappings and now she owes them her life, blah, blah. I am not sold on this theory but it is what i initially, instinctively, felt would happen.

But there are so many twists and turns (which I adore), so I have no idea.

[Lummel]

She-wolf Arya, on 06 March 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

The bite, I believe, referencing what Biter did to her face, I do not see reference to her having bruising around her neck or wearing a scarf - I thought about that scenario but when I didn't see reference I thought hmmm maybe she wasn't being hung and then cut loose after a while. - can you show reference to where there is indication that she is wearing a scarf or has marks on her neck after being captured by Cat's men?

Sorry, checked the book and I've misremembered - no scarf mentioned.  But I stand by my point, the way they were going about hanging Brienne, Pod and Ser Hyle in AFFC they would not have died instantly.

[AlexKerscher]

She-wolf Arya, on 06 March 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

I think she found Jamie quickly because Tom o’Sevens has infiltrated the camp (forgot the chapter but its in a Feast for Crows)

I don't think Brienne had to receive help from the BwB to find Jamie. It's one thing to search for a fugitive that went underground (Sansa) with no clue whatsoever where she went. It's another to find where the famous Kingslayer was. All she had to do was ask anyone in the Riverlands where did the Pacifiying Host went.

Mumatil, on 06 March 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think Jaime will survive the ordeal, because I believe he will kill Cersei at some point

He doesn't neet do be alive to do so. Remember how Catlyng became vengeful after she died. "She fucked Lancel and Kettleback and Moonboy for all I know, he thought, as her neck made a cracking sound."

[Silent_Hero]

Ser Illyn is probably going to shadow and save jamie.

[Lady Octarina]

I looked at that chapter once more, and now I think it could be possible that Brienne came back from the dead. This is Jaime' thoughts when he sees her:

Quote

Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what's happened to her face?

Berric and Catelyn also seemed to have aged when they came back, so that could be it. Of course, the simple explanation is that she looks older because she really went through a lot those few months since Jaime last saw her (like nearly dying many times, killing people for the first time, ...), so I'll stick with this idea for now, and I sincerely hope that doesn't mean we'll have UnBrienne soon.

Edited by Lady Octarina, 08 March 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Lady Octarina, on 08 March 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Of course, the simple explanation is that she looks older because she really went through a lot those few months since Jaime last saw her (like nearly dying many times, killing people for the first time, ...), so I'll stick with this idea for now, and I sincerely hope that doesn't mean we'll have UnBrienne soon.

Like getting part of her cheek bitten of, getting infected and being delirious for days just recently? Ockhams razor declares that the girl is alive.

[Happy Ent]

Bright Blue Eyes, on 08 March 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Like getting part of her cheek bitten of, getting infected and being delirious for days just recently?

Half a decade ago I obsessed about timelines for the series, but I’ve pretty much given up now. Do you have a good estimate for how much time has passed?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Happy Ent, on 09 March 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

Half a decade ago I obsessed about timelines for the series, but I’ve pretty much given up now. Do you have a good estimate for how much time has passed?

Barely enough for Jaime to travel from Riverrun to Raventree + the time spent deliriously. Sorry, but that's the only estimate I could come up with, and it's mostly based on Jaime sending Wyman Frey away, Uncat hanging him and showing up with Robbs crown for Briennes trial.

[Silver Spearwife]

mediterraneo, on 06 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

It is quite possible that she was later "kissed" by Catelyn and that her "zombie" is blocked in the last task undertook before death, like Beric "bring justice to the Riverlands" and Catelyn's "Avenge your son against Lord Frey".

That is an absolutely fascinating theory. Very interesting.

I just can't see Brienne sacrificing Jaime, even for Pod. She'd try to find a third option, some means of keeping them both alive (although I have no idea if there is one. The situation's pretty dicey). She's clearly got the hots for the guy; I just can't see her willingly sending him to his death. Maybe she would have considered this seriously when she was watching Pod and convinced herself that it was the right decision but I don't think she could possibly stick by it once she actually reached Jaime.

Maybe they'll kill UnCat. That would be anticlimactic, but it would certainly help their situation.

The poor girl's taken too many vows, and she just can't keep all of them. She has to drop one.

Someone earlier brought up how very lacking-of-foresight it was of Jaime to simply go off with Brienne without at all considering that there might be something wrong with this situation. The more I think about it, the more that seems right. He should have some kind of backup plan, like, "Well, the Hound needs me to go alone, but I'm taking a small troop of men with me who will stay a few hours' ride behind us." Or, well, maybe not that. But something along those lines.

Incidentally, what does Jaime plan to do? Assuming he believes Brienne, and assuming he were to actually successfully get Sansa from the Hound and safely away, and he has every intention of fulfilling his promise to Catelyn Stark, what exactly is he planning to do with her? When the vow was originally made, Riverrun was still very much in Tully hands and to my memory, Winterfell's destruction wasn't common knowledge yet, so Sansa had a number of places to go. She really doesn't have anywhere anymore - except maybe their Eyrie through her cousin, which is is ridiculously ironic if that was Jaime's plan.

I mean that entire last paragraph from Jaime's perspective and what he knows to be true, or may or may not believe is true. Obviously, almost the entirety of that is skewed because of his perspective.

[Lady Octarina]

Well, whatever happens, and I have a feeling they will survive the BwB and UnCat somehow, it will probably be through Jaime, not Brienne. I mean, the woman is too honorable, but unimaginative, how could she come up with a cunning plan? But he could, except he has no morals anymore. So, my first thought is that Jaime will manipulate Brienne in a way that will help them both when they're faced with the BwB - not exactly tricking anyone, just making sure they get the right message, but Brienne won't know what he's doing. That's perfectly possible, since he knows how she thinks and acts. But now let's go to the interesting possibility: Jaime hasn't been himself lately. Who knows, he may even agree with them that he has to be punished and killed for all he's done or plans to do. So e'll do nothing to defend himself. But Brienne will, and not wit the sword. Imagine if she finally proved to have some brains and that saves them both? I would love to read that!

[Happy Ent]

Psychobabble6, on 09 March 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

I just can't see Brienne sacrificing Jaime, even for Pod.

What could be more beautiful? It’s what she ever wanted, it’s one for the songs. Having to honourably kill the man you love—it’s epic, tragic, romantic, chivalrous, heartbreaking.

How would you not want to read that? How can even Brienne refuse? It’s perfect.

Quote

The poor girl's taken too many vows, and she just can't keep all of them. She has to drop one.

This is false. There’s one vow only: her pledge of allegiance to Catelyn Stark. You’re inventing a moral dilemma where there isn’t one.

[AlexKerscher]

Lady Octarina, on 09 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Well, whatever happens, and I have a feeling they will survive the BwB and UnCat somehow, it will probably be through Jaime, not Brienne. I mean, the woman is too honorable, but unimaginative, how could she come up with a cunning plan? But he could, except he has no morals anymore. So, my first thought is that Jaime will manipulate Brienne in a way that will help them both when they're faced with the BwB - not exactly tricking anyone, just making sure they get the right message, but Brienne won't know what he's doing. That's perfectly possible, since he knows how she thinks and acts. But now let's go to the interesting possibility: Jaime hasn't been himself lately. Who knows, he may even agree with them that he has to be punished and killed for all he's done or plans to do. So e'll do nothing to defend himself. But Brienne will, and not wit the sword. Imagine if she finally proved to have some brains and that saves them both? I would love to read that!

The only way I can see Braime (or Jainne, as in Brangelina) surviving through Jaime is if he manages to hit unCat only once with Oathkeeper and she instantly dies like a Wight. Imagine the implications of finding out that the people ressurrected by the lord of the light are little more than White Walkers.

[The_Gallows_Knight]

I feel that it is probably worth adding that the Hound Brienne refers to is Lem, last seen with the Sandor's distinctive helmet.

[Stark@heart]

Thanks what's so fun about these forums.

At this point, Brienne could go either way.

Will she give Jamie up to the justice/vengence of UnLady Stark and the North?

Is she now Brienne 2.0  - nothing like UnCat, who was dead when she was given the Kiss of Fire?  from Beric.  Or could she have just needed intense healing like Vic?

Beric did not come back as a monster and if anything, I think thats what he was trying to fight becoming.  It was Thoros who wouldn't let him go and the toll on him that drove him to give the gift to Cateyln.  He wanted to die and the BWB needed someone to lead them.  Well, in a sense justice/vengence is being dealt but not the kind of justice or vengence that Ned Stark would want or approve of.

If Brienne got the gift from UnCat then Jamie could be done for ( not really, but then again I didn't think Ned who lose his head either )

If it was Thoros then she should be the same up to a point but having the responsiblity of a return to life by the Red God may compel her to make a sacrifice mayhaps?  Brienne for AA - CPT all the way.  Sorry I've recently been on the threads when their doing some true poetry and some cool songs, limericks, etc.

Truely, I see Brienne helping Jamie talk his way out, maybe he'll vow to go to KL and return with Cersei's head    Thing is, at this point in their relationship, that's exactly what he's been thinking of.

[lostinwesteros]

mediterraneo, on 06 March 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

I just want to contest the "correctly" part. It is matter of debate, because being objective Jaime never took part in active military operations. He talked to Edmure, to the Blackfish, to the Lord of Raventree Hall. The last one had peace without even having to swear fealty. Jaime was very cautious in trying to obey to the letter of his oath. And he was 'correctly' succesful in it. Literally, no one was harmed, not in Riverrun, not at Raventree Hall. He stopped military operations everywhere he went, he did not direct them.

Thank you!

[Spjuth]

I think it's of the essens that Jamie followes Brienne with the mind of helping Sansa. BwB might have set him up for a test. They have the helm, so they will see how much he is willing to sacrifice to rescue Cat's daugthers. Perhaps he agrees to offer his own life for Sansas Freedom? He has already given them back part of Ned's Sword Ice.

Maybe they will let him go with the promise that he kills Cersi...