112 replies to this topic

[Areo Speedwagon]

I've had it in my head for a while now that Brienne is going to be the one to rescue Sansa. I think that only because all her life, Sansa has been waiting for her "knight in shining armor" or Prince charming. While Martin deconstructed the "prince charming" tale in Game of Thrones, then the Florian myth in Clash, I think Brienne will be Sansa's knight in shining armor. It makes a certain kind of sense to me that Sansa with her antiquated concept of femininity is going to be saved by an ugly, scarred, yet honorable and brave positive female role model.

So i have no idea how they'll escape UnCat, but I think something like what I posted above will ultimately happen, so they will escape or be set free.  If not what I said above, something that contributes to the larger story as a whole.  These books are still one story told in seven (maybe eight) parts.  Introducing Jaime and then Brienne the way he did just to have them die begs the question of their purpose of moving the story as a whole forward.  If they die, they don't really have one, and all of their chapters were for nothing.  It would also beg UnCat's purpose, for it would seem to me that hers would certainly be more important than Jaime or Brienne's, which I find very hard to believe.  Again, I'm going off the understanding that this story, as a whole and in its broadest sense, is about the second Long Night, the second coming of the White Walkers, and their (I can only assume) ulitimate defeat.  I think both Jaime and Brienne have larger roles to play in that story.

[Lady Octarina]

AlexKerscher, on 09 March 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

The only way I can see Braime (or Jainne, as in Brangelina) surviving through Jaime is if he manages to hit unCat only once with Oathkeeper and she instantly dies like a Wight. Imagine the implications of finding out that the people ressurrected by the lord of the light are little more than White Walkers.

Oh, that would be delightful! Imagine if Oathkeeper actually has a purpose other than being a part of Ice that Jaime gives Brienne? Some consider its function could be as the new (and real) Lightbringer, but that sounds like wishful thinking. On the other hand, proving that dragonsteel can kill any kind of living dead, well... The only problem I see is how the BwB would react to that, if they don't trust Jaime already. But imagine if it was Brienne, or Pod - or, even better, Thoros himself! - to kill her? EPIC!

Spjuth, on 10 March 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

I think it's of the essens that Jamie followes Brienne with the mind of helping Sansa. BwB might have set him up for a test. They have the helm, so they will see how much he is willing to sacrifice to rescue Cat's daugthers. Perhaps he agrees to offer his own life for Sansas Freedom? He has already given them back part of Ned's Sword Ice.

Maybe they will let him go with the promise that he kills Cersi...

I like that idea. As in the case of Oathkeeper, that would give the helm an actual purpose on this story. I want him to be Cersei's valonqar, but by his own initiative, not trying to prove something to the BwB.

Areo Speedwagon, on 10 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I've had it in my head for a while now that Brienne is going to be the one to rescue Sansa. I think that only because all her life, Sansa has been waiting for her "knight in shining armor" or Prince charming. While Martin deconstructed the "prince charming" tale in Game of Thrones, then the Florian myth in Clash, I think Brienne will be Sansa's knight in shining armor. It makes a certain kind of sense to me that Sansa with her antiquated concept of femininity is going to be saved by an ugly, scarred, yet honorable and brave positive female role model.

lol
That would be fun, but Sansa has a role to play yet, and I like to think she'll be her own "knight in shining armor", and become HBIC or either the Vale or Riverrun. It's time for Brienne to stop trying to find a purpose in life through serving others.

[lostinwesteros]

Areo Speedwagon, on 10 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I've had it in my head for a while now that Brienne is going to be the one to rescue Sansa. I think that only because all her life, Sansa has been waiting for her "knight in shining armor" or Prince charming. While Martin deconstructed the "prince charming" tale in Game of Thrones, then the Florian myth in Clash, I think Brienne will be Sansa's knight in shining armor. It makes a certain kind of sense to me that Sansa with her antiquated concept of femininity is going to be saved by an ugly, scarred, yet honorable and brave positive female role model.

I really like your perceptiveness, and I think you've gone to the heart of the matter for both women.  It would be a powerful and meaningful way for Sansa to begin developing a strong sense of autonomy, but also, I think, for Brienne to begin acknowledging her own gentler side.  

Lady Octarina, on 10 March 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

lol
That would be fun, but Sansa has a role to play yet, and I like to think she'll be her own "knight in shining armor", and become HBIC or either the Vale or Riverrun. It's time for Brienne to stop trying to find a purpose in life through serving others.

Far from preventing Sansa from playing a role, I see it, rather, as an apt catalyst to ensure that she will be able to do just that.  
And I guess I'm wondering just how many characters there are, fictional or otherwise, who aren't trying in some way to find or pursue a purpose in life.  I think that one of the things I like best about this series is that the characters are so real, so human -- never caricatures of good or bad, strong or weak, and that they're not staid.  Dany gets [imo] impossibly tiresome, Jaime develops [imo] some redeeming qualities.  Don't remember which thread it was recently, but someone posted a really great comment to this effect.

Edited by Know Nothing, 11 March 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[lostinwesteros]

sorry - edit misfired

Edited by OldOne, 11 March 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Spjuth]

Areo Speedwagon, on 10 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I've had it in my head for a while now that Brienne is going to be the one to rescue Sansa. I think that only because all her life, Sansa has been waiting for her "knight in shining armor" or Prince charming. While Martin deconstructed the "prince charming" tale in Game of Thrones, then the Florian myth in Clash, I think Brienne will be Sansa's knight in shining armor. It makes a certain kind of sense to me that Sansa with her antiquated concept of femininity is going to be saved by an ugly, scarred, yet honorable and brave positive female role model.

Haha, yes that would be ironical. But I still stink Sandor Clegane is her knight in "shining" armour.

[Areo Speedwagon]

Lady Octarina, I agree with you in that Sansa has role yet to play.  In fact, I think it is a huge role.  Which is why she needs to get out of the Vale.  As long as she is with Littlefinger, or by extension, in the Vale, I don't see her becomming her own knight in shining armor.  Her use/power, in Littlefinger's and men in generals minds, comes from the fact that she can be married off.  That she is (extremely valuable) property to be bartered with to increase a Mans position/holdings.  That's not to say she isn't going to benefit from said marriage, she will, and that's why she'll be go along with it.  I don't think Sansa has grown quite enough yet in that she still actively wants to be a good Queen and wife.  I think her "tutalage" with Littlefinger will continue and she will learn how to play the Game as well as anyone (in GoT, Sansa always knew the answers to Septon Mordane's questions, so I take it she's pretty bright).  So I think she will be learning and learning in the Vale, but it won't be until she meets Brienne that the "light bulb" will go off for her, and she'll decide to take all that she's learned and use it for herself and not some cabal of men that are using her for their own gains.

Spjuth - I didn't forget about Sandor, and I have no idea now he's going to factor in.  Martin certainly set somethign up in the relationship they had in Clash.  I think you're right in that he'll have something to do with rescuing Sansa, but what I don't know.  All i've written here should come with an asterisk in that every prediction I've made about this story has never worked out the way I thought.

[Lady Octarina]

Areo Speedwagon, on 11 March 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Lady Octarina, I agree with you in that Sansa has role yet to play.  In fact, I think it is a huge role.  Which is why she needs to get out of the Vale.  As long as she is with Littlefinger, or by extension, in the Vale, I don't see her becomming her own knight in shining armor.  Her use/power, in Littlefinger's and men in generals minds, comes from the fact that she can be married off.  That she is (extremely valuable) property to be bartered with to increase a Mans position/holdings.  That's not to say she isn't going to benefit from said marriage, she will, and that's why she'll be go along with it.  I don't think Sansa has grown quite enough yet in that she still actively wants to be a good Queen and wife.  I think her "tutalage" with Littlefinger will continue and she will learn how to play the Game as well as anyone (in GoT, Sansa always knew the answers to Septon Mordane's questions, so I take it she's pretty bright).  So I think she will be learning and learning in the Vale, but it won't be until she meets Brienne that the "light bulb" will go off for her, and she'll decide to take all that she's learned and use it for herself and not some cabal of men that are using her for their own gains.

I just don't see why she would need to meet Brienne for that. She'll be instructed by Littlefinger, surely. She will marry Harry and learn more about the life of a lady in such difficult times. And then she'll pretend to be LF's puppet until an opportunity arrives to get rid of him and become HBIC on her own account ^.^

[The King of Worms]

The Hill That Rides, on 06 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Don't you all just think its pretty impressive how quickly she found Jaimie?  Her skills, they are improving!

I think she found Jaime so quickly because the Brotherhood has been tracking the Lannister-Frey army since the siege of Riverrun started. They have been picking off Freys wherever they can and probably helping the Blackfish. They are like "insurgents".
Dead-LadyStark knows exactly where Jaime is at, and just wants to use Brienne to lure him away from his host. Otherwise they'd have to attack the Lannisters in force, which they are not strong enough to do.

[The King of Worms]

Silent_Hero, on 08 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Ser Illyn is probably going to shadow and save jamie.

I agree that Ser Ilyn will try to save Jaime. I don't think GRRM wrote him back into Jamie's story for no reason.
My guess though is that Ser Ilyn will fall to Brienne's blade Oathkeeper... which of course used to be the sword Ilyn used to slice of Ned's head. GRRM keeps using Brienne as a sword of  vengeance throughout the books. She quests around the countryside killing off evil jesters, fake Hounds, rapers, and other assorted scum... Ser Ilyn seems like just the type Brienne would wind up in a deadly duel with. And to kill Ilyn with Ned's sword... how good will that be?

[Sun]

Silent_Hero, on 08 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Ser Illyn is probably going to shadow and save jamie.

That's a good thought.

[David Selig]

She-wolf Arya, on 04 March 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

I'm new to forums in general so sorry if this has been answered (tried the search and didn't find anything).

In a Dance with Dragons (hardcover page 645-646) Jamie's chapter - Brienne is clearly alive - and it seems that she is lying about Sansa and the Hound - since she is in the Vale and the Hound is presumably dead.

We know that Lady Stoneheart or Cat is now full of revenge and seems a bit less rational than before (I know this is up for debate) but my question is about Brienne and what everyone thinks about the situation. Did they kill her and then resurrect her at a point to of irrationality? Did she convince herself that she needs to kill Jamie because her oath is to Cat not Jaime? If "brainwashing" is possible will they do that with Jaime? So many different scenarios can happen. I LOVE Brienne and I can't believe that she would willingly put Jaime in harm's way. Especially because of the respect they have developed for one another.

What are everyone's thoughts??

There's nothing irrational about Brienne agreeing to kill Jamie. First, Jamie by his own admission has crippled a little kid and committed high treason and incest, so by the Westeros law and custom he deserves death. Second, Brienne would've been executed if she had refused. Third, she swore an oath of fealty to Catelyn and that for someone like Brienne is paramount.

On the other hand, Brienne's reasons to refuse the order are purely emotional  - she loves Jamie and is thankful to him for saving her from the bear.

Edited by David Selig, 12 March 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[DragonSpawn]

Is brienne alive? Shes already made her sacrafice to the heart tree... What if she was brought back? What we know is that there is no mention of her badly broken arm when jamie meets her... She doesnt sound as useless as she did before... There is no mention of stoneheart... What makes u think that stoneheart has not done a berric transfer to brienne? If cat was left with nothing but revenge in her heart brienne would be left with nothing but oathkeeping and finding daughters...

[Lady Octarina]

DragonSpawn, on 12 March 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Is brienne alive? Shes already made her sacrafice to the heart tree... What if she was brought back? What we know is that there is no mention of her badly broken arm when jamie meets her... She doesnt sound as useless as she did before... There is no mention of stoneheart... What makes u think that stoneheart has not done a berric transfer to brienne? If cat was left with nothing but revenge in her heart brienne would be left with nothing but oathkeeping and finding daughters...

But how would UnCat know that Brienne would go after her daughters to save her once she was brought back? As far as she has been informed, Brienne is in love with Jaime and might be thinking about how she failed to bring the girls to him so he could kill them - so that would probably be what was on her mind as she died and as she was brought back.

I really don't see why UnCat would bring her back, or why the Brienne we saw isn't the real one. She sounded enough like herself to me, perhaps colder than usual, but she only appears at the end of the chapter, which is rushed to give us a proper cliffhanger, and Jaime barely describes anything beyond her looking older and the thing on her face.

[TheEvilKing]

Here's my guess as to how it will go down:

Brienne will bring Jaime to UnCat. Pod may or may not be dead; Ser Hyle will be.

Cat will want to kill Jaime, but she will learn of the capture of Riverrun and that the Lannisters hold Edmure and his kid. She will be persuaded to use Jaime as a hostage instead, in exchange for Edmure/baby Tully. If the Blackfish is with the BwB he may well be the catalyst for this decision.

Whether the hostage exchange happens or not, I haven't decided. I think Littlefinger and some armed forces from the Vale will be moving into the Riverlands during The Winds of Winter in order to consolidate LF's seat as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Between Brienne and Jaime's quest to find Sansa, LF's feelings for Cat and Sansa, Cat's hatred of the Freys etc I think some crazy shit is going to go down. I like to think that Littlefinger will ultimately be the one to take final vengeance of the Freys and Lord Walder, and then afterwards he will die at the hands (or order) of UnCat.

[lostinwesteros]

TheEvilKing, on 12 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Here's my guess as to how it will go down:
Cat will want to kill Jaime, but she will learn of the capture of Riverrun and that the Lannisters hold Edmure and his kid. She will be persuaded to use Jaime as a hostage instead, in exchange for Edmure/baby Tully. If the Blackfish is with the BwB he may well be the catalyst for this decision.

Never thought about there being another option for an unCat - Jaime confrontation.  Thanks for the interesting possibility.

[mediterraneo]

Happy Ent, on 06 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

On the other hand, he threatened to fling the newborn nephew of Catelyn Stark over the ramparts of Riverrun. I’m sure that news sat pretty bad with her. (Given that, after all, he did try to kill her son.)

I completely agree. Cat and everybody in the Riverlands are right (from their point of view) to think that the man who defeated the "last" Tully resistance is a true monster. And above all, an enemy, as it was well said here.

Happy Ent, on 06 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

You don’t even need the vengeance motive to rationalise her actions. Jaime’s men are actively killing the outlaws. So the outlaws are killing them back. It’s war. Vengeance is just icing on the cake.

Jaime even had the guts to tell Catelyn it was him to push Bran from the window! I do completely agree that Catelyn has her reasons to try to kill him. I find her reasons to be quite persuasive, too. Most of all to someone who swore to serve her: Brienne didn't take part in the war, strictly speaking, but she has taken an oath. I agree with what was said here:

Happy Ent, on 09 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

What could be more beautiful? It’s what she ever wanted, it’s one for the songs. Having to honourably kill the man you love—it’s epic, tragic, romantic, chivalrous, heartbreaking. How would you not want to read that? How can even Brienne refuse? It’s perfect.

Happy Ent, on 06 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Only for part of it, and that part went completely over her head. (Same as mine.) From her POV, Jaime and Roose were having strange conversations all evening. When they leave Harrenhal, they are apparently good friends. And Jaime asks Roose to send his regards. Next, Brienne hears from Lady Cat that Jaime conspired with Bolton to plan the Red Wedding. “No way!” says Brienne. Cat then tells her that Roose even gave Jaime’s regards to Robb when he slit his throat. That seals the deal for Brienne. (Or something like that.) GRRM has perversely and precisely given both Brienne and Cat all the wrong puzzle pieces (another is the baby-throwing line delivered via Tom o’Sevens) to give a very bad picture of Jaime.

I agree on almost everything, but the part of wanting to read the very cruel final destiny waiting Jaime. I hope it will be postponed by a book or two, but I know that it'll come, it will hurt. I like the guy. He's decent, and does not lie on what he does: he did once, and he revealed the truth to his brother the first time they talked after his return to freedom.



Another point: peace between enemies, victory and defeat.

Happy Ent, on 06 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Ahem. Jaime brings victory. It may be peace in his POV, but it’s King Tommen’s peace. Pax Romani is peace only from the point of view of the victors.

The romans learned that the winner may be harsh when the Gallic leader Brennus, who was the last one to sack Rome before it become a great power, resolved a discussion on the measure of gold the romans were to pay for their freedom. The roman and gallic measurers did not agree, and Brennus aded his sword on the balance: more gold was needed. The romans protested: "Brennus, you steal on the weight!". The warlord answered: "Vae Victis". "Woe to the defeated".
In this books, and from a reader point of view, I must note the difference in the destiny of the Lords of Riverrun and Raventree Hall. Edmure was married and captured, while his family was traitionated and killed. The Tully dinasty ended, their castle taken by the victor's families, their seat given to Littlefinger - the man who organized the death of both the Tully girls' husbands and sequestrated Sansa.
The Lord of Raventree Hall lost a mill. Of his choice.
In the first case, it was Tywinn's victory. In the second, it was Jaime's peace, or victory if you prefer.


The last point today:

OldOne, on 09 March 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Thank you!

You are the welcome!

EDIT: some grammar

Edited by mediterraneo, 04 September 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Peter1982]

I think one of them will die... most likely Jaime. Now, Brienne has only one oath, to protect Sansa Stark for Jaime. The point is, to keep that oath, Jaime must die. But she swore no oath to protect Jaime, only to bring him to KL, which she did. So thats finished. I think Jaime will be slain with Oathkeeper, and then Brienne will go find and protect Sansa.

The other theory is, that Jaime relieves Brienne from her oath to protect Sansa and takes it upon himself again. But i dont see where that leaves Pod.

The third theory is that they go in and kill those idiots of a Beric, THoros, and Cat.

[Daemrion]

Happy Ent, on 09 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

What could be more beautiful? It’s what she ever wanted, it’s one for the songs. Having to honourably kill the man you love—it’s epic, tragic, romantic, chivalrous, heartbreaking.

How would you not want to read that? How can even Brienne refuse? It’s perfect.

Good point.

But I have to say that scene should come after the heartbreaking Tyrion/Jaime reunion - because that was so obviously left unfinished after ASOS, and the Dany/Jaime scene that has to come in regards to Aerys death. So I don't particularly think that Jaime should die yet.

Whereas I think the BwB have outlived their usefulness as characters.

Edited by Daemrion, 26 March 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[JayDubya]

I guess I don't understand all the complex stories, or at least they don't feel like they make a lot of sense to me.

Brienne was unable to stand the pain of the  hanging and the harm her actions were causing to Pod, so she agreed to kill Jaime.    The tragedy - whatever loyalty she felt to Jaime, she has had to break - making her (in her mind, at least) an oathbreaker - exactly what she never wanted to be.

Now, she's luring him somewhere, either to kill him, or to conspire with him to pretend to kill him.

[Bolivar]

They have a location on Sansa, and need Bronn to help them impregnate the Eyrie like he said he could. Bronn, Jaime, Brienne, The Hound, The Blackfish, Hyle, and Pod set off to rescue Sansa. When they get there, they find that she and/or Harry ready to assert her claims over The Vale, The North, the Riverlands, and possibly Casterly Rock, and now subvert the remaining kingdoms after the Tyrells and Targaryens have smashed eachother. She asks these 7 for help. Queensguard.