112 replies to this topic

[Bastard of the White Knife]

I find it hard to swallow that Brienne is doing anything other then luring Jamie into a trap.  She's not in any condition to fight side-by-side with him or lead a rescue mission for Pod/Hyle.  She clealy lured him into coming alone.  I don't see how Jamie, fight left handed, could defeat the BwB even with help from a very weakened Brienne of Tarth.  Even in Ser Illyn Payne was there, I can't see them defeating the BwB.

[Elito]

What about this..... UnCat hanged her but Thoros brough her back to life because he is againts what UnCat is doing... he says it to Brienne when she is healing something in the lines of "I do not know what we are anymore"   The vengance of UnCat is certaily getting out of hand... I mean when Beric was the leader people will get a trial...(the hound is an example) now that she is the leader even Pod was hang just because he was a steward of the lions.  I will happily have all the Freys hanged and the Boltons too, but Pod and Brienne? is UnCat can not trust in her then who?

So this is my theory, Thoros revived Brienne to get rid of UnCat, and restore the BwB to their previous propouse "save the riverlands"... and then UnBrienne, needs help outside of the BwB so he lures Jaime to help her, he will probably get killed, they both will but it is needed.  If Brienne is really UnBrienne then she is not bound to any vow to Cat anyways.

David Selig, on 12 March 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

First, Jamie by his own admission has crippled a little kid

But Catelyn had the chance to kill Jaime for this back in the cells and she did not

[Lady Octarina]

Bastard of the White Knife, on 26 March 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

I find it hard to swallow that Brienne is doing anything other then luring Jamie into a trap.  She's not in any condition to fight side-by-side with him or lead a rescue mission for Pod/Hyle.  She clealy lured him into coming alone.  I don't see how Jamie, fight left handed, could defeat the BwB even with help from a very weakened Brienne of Tarth.  Even in Ser Illyn Payne was there, I can't see them defeating the BwB.

That's the most likely, I agree with you. Chances are there's no way they could save Pod and Ser Hyle. But the thing is, if GRRM simply meant to kill Jaime, he would have done it by the end of ADWD; there's no reason to postpone that scene to TWOW unless something unexpected will happen that may justify that story stretching for at least two more chapters, for nothing else would make any sense, narratively speaking.

Elito, on 26 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

What about this..... UnCat hanged her but Thoros brough her back to life because he is againts what UnCat is doing... he says it to Brienne when she is healing something in the lines of "I do not know what we are anymore"   The vengance of UnCat is certaily getting out of hand... I mean when Beric was the leader people will get a trial...(the hound is an example) now that she is the leader even Pod was hang just because he was a steward of the lions.  I will happily have all the Freys hanged and the Boltons too, but Pod and Brienne? is UnCat can not trust in her then who?

So this is my theory, Thoros revived Brienne to get rid of UnCat, and restore the BwB to their previous propouse "save the riverlands"... and then UnBrienne, needs help outside of the BwB so he lures Jaime to help her, he will probably get killed, they both will but it is needed.  If Brienne is really UnBrienne then she is not bound to any vow to Cat anyways.

Well, if she is to have died, I think it makes much more sense to consider Thoros brought her back than UnCat, Beric-style. But Thoros is no fool - he knows it isn't simply for UnCat's fault that the BwB is now so different than in Beric's days, I doubt he thinks a change in leadership would make any difference. The BwB strike me as too similar to those broken man (was that the word?) someone described in one of Brienne's chapters, I think, as an example to what war does to commoners.

And also, as I said before, I really don't see why Brienne has to be UnBrienne. The other explanation is much more simple, therefore probably correct. Not to mention we have no elements from Jaime's last chapter to believe that she's acting any different than usual; less than a page is hardly enough proof of anything in this case.

[David C. Hunter]

Thunderfist, on 06 March 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Imo this is one of the most interesting cliffhangers in ADwD. I'd just like to add one small point. After Jaime leaves Kings Landing and heads to the Riverlands with his forces, we get to read about how Jaime is constantly thinking to himself about how Robb Stark had caught him unaware in the Whispering Woods and how Jaime would NEVER let that happen again. In fact, he seems almost paranoid with having guards, scouts and sentries all over the place even when his sizeable force is close to Kings Landing. So are we supposed to believe that Jaime 'I will NEVER let anyone catch me unaware again' Lannister simply sees Brienne riding up, looking like hell and worse, and decides that he's gonna ride off alone with her to gods know where. And are we also supposed to believe that Jaime thinks that heading off to face the Hound with a cripple and a companion who looks half dead is a smart idea.

I don't know how this story will continue but I really think it would be interesting if Jaime faces Uncat and the BwB (and possibly the Blackfish) where he has a sizeable force with him. Then he would get an opportunity to really redeem himself and honor his promise to Catelyn Stark

But who knows, maybe GRRM starts skipping the logics and has Uncat hang Jaime and Brienne at which point I will light a great fire and sacrifice all of my ASoIaF books to the lord of light

Thats red herring 101. They did it in Godfather where the man never wants to made a fool of again and behold he gets humiliated worse than ever. Jaime trusts Brienne, the passage in which he remembers the whispering woods is meant to be ironic.

Brienne would hear an army behind her and Jaime has literally no reason to distrust Brienne, who in terms of loyalty is everything a knight should be up into this point

[David C. Hunter]

Mumatil, on 06 March 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think Jaime will survive the ordeal, because I believe he will kill Cersei at some point

Jaime is outnumbered and has one arm

[Bastard of the White Knife]

Elito, on 26 March 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:

What about this..... UnCat hanged her but Thoros brough her back to life because he is againts what UnCat is doing... he says it to Brienne when she is healing something in the lines of "I do not know what we are anymore"   The vengance of UnCat is certaily getting out of hand... I mean when Beric was the leader people will get a trial...(the hound is an example) now that she is the leader even Pod was hang just because he was a steward of the lions.  I will happily have all the Freys hanged and the Boltons too, but Pod and Brienne? is UnCat can not trust in her then who?

So this is my theory, Thoros revived Brienne to get rid of UnCat, and restore the BwB to their previous propouse "save the riverlands"... and then UnBrienne, needs help outside of the BwB so he lures Jaime to help her, he will probably get killed, they both will but it is needed.  If Brienne is really UnBrienne then she is not bound to any vow to Cat anyways.



But Catelyn had the chance to kill Jaime for this back in the cells and she did not

I could see Thoros saving Brienne or even Lady Stoneheart giving her the "kiss" but why, then, would Brienne go get Jamie and lure him to the BwB?  How could Thoros (or unCat) know how Brienne was going to operate when she came back?  We know from Dondarian that revival doesn't necessarily make you a monster.  Revival tends to remove some memories and make you more mission-focused, if anything.  Brienne's mission was never to "save the Riverlands" it was "find Cat's daughters."  Why on earth would Brienne want Jamie, except to lead him into a trap?  Does she really think he's trustworthy (HA!) enough to join the new mission of the BwB?  That just stretches the imagination too far.  I've got to think that the simpliest explanation is the best one:  Brienne is leading Jamie to face Stoneheart's justice.  Now, maybe Jamie gets out of the jam, but that's separate from Brienne's actions.

[Lord Damian]

Maybe UnCat told Briene about the Red Wedding and Roose's uttering "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" before killing Robb. Briene might have had a change of heart after hearing this and has agreed to deliver Jaime to UnCat for justice.

[Mumatil]

David C. Simmons, on 26 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Jaime is outnumbered and has one arm

Plot Device.

[Daemrion]

I think storywise, the BWB and UnCat have outlived their usefulness. They aren't really needed any more in terms of driving the story forward.

[TC_Chaos]

What I take away from the reading was that Brienne was hanged after the Pod and Hyle. And when she screamed out one word, I thought it has to be "Jaime". I'm getting a feeling from the text that Brienne has developed feelings for Jaime, and him for her likewise. Jaime, of course, hasn't gotten over his lover Cercei but when he abandoned her after getting her message is cleared that he has somewhat moved on.

I really think that Brienne is dead and turned into the zombie that Catelyn has become. Cat is probably using Brienne to get Jaime to come so she can hold him hostage for some other terrible plot. I was kinda rooting for Jaime after reading book 3, but at this point any character is at the axe so I won't hold out hope for one single character becoming victorious for the Iron Throne.

[TC_Chaos]

Daemrion, on 27 March 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I think storywise, the BWB and UnCat have outlived their usefulness. They aren't really needed any more in terms of driving the story forward.

I see everyone is using the term UnCat. Does it stand for Undead Catelyn?

[Errant Bard]

Daemrion, on 27 March 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

I think storywise, the BWB and UnCat have outlived their usefulness. They aren't really needed any more in terms of driving the story forward.

They have the utility they always had: they provide a powerbase or at least a haven for whoever opposes the Lannisters in the Riverland. As such they are pretty primordial, as it's easier to tell of a civil war if there already was a resistance going on before the Queen comes.

Jaime, on the other hadn has pretty much outlived his usefulness. There is nothing he could do that another could not do, regarding the narrative.

TC_Chaos, on 28 March 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

I see everyone is using the term UnCat. Does it stand for Undead Catelyn?

Yes. That or United Cats, the feline support group.

[Elito]

Bastard of the White Knife, on 27 March 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

I could see Thoros saving Brienne or even Lady Stoneheart giving her the "kiss" but why, then, would Brienne go get Jamie and lure him to the BwB?  How could Thoros (or unCat) know how Brienne was going to operate when she came back?  We know from Dondarian that revival doesn't necessarily make you a monster.  Revival tends to remove some memories and make you more mission-focused, if anything.  Brienne's mission was never to "save the Riverlands" it was "find Cat's daughters."  Why on earth would Brienne want Jamie, except to lead him into a trap?

If we are talking about UnBrienne I do not believe that she would care weather Jaime lives or dies, as to the missions... it could have change for Brienne maybe her mission is not saving the daughters anymore but actually... saving Pod, after all where are her vows now if she was killed by the only person she has been vowed to serve.  Of curse you are in the end probably more right than me, but I find it difficult to want UnCat to have anything her way at this point because she is just at this point lost in her mission. IMO

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I think it's a bit premature to say what characters have outlived their usefulness. Maybe Jaime is a secret Targ, and AAR, and the valonqar, and whathaveyou; or maybe the final showdown will be between "fire wights" and "ice wights" to see which UnKing will sit the Iron Throne; or whatever.

As for Brienne, it never occurred to me while I was reading Jaime's ADWD chapter that she may have been undead at that point. We have so little information to go on, that anything we come up with is nothing but pure conjecture. I will say, though, that I agree with what others have touched upon: That (a live) Brienne's internal conflict has all sorts of potential for interesting storytelling. The human heart in conflict, and all that (I hear GRRM is a fan as well... )

[Daemrion]

Errant Bard, on 28 March 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

They have the utility they always had: they provide a powerbase or at least a haven for whoever opposes the Lannisters in the Riverland. As such they are pretty primordial, as it's easier to tell of a civil war if there already was a resistance going on before the Queen comes.

Jaime, on the other hand has pretty much outlived his usefulness. There is nothing he could do that another could not do, regarding the narrative.

That's where I disagree. I guess, in my opinion, the first war should be 'over' before Dany/the Others (which is undoubtedly the more important war) comes to Westeros. Of course, cutting of the original timeskip between ASOS and AFFC/ADWD has probably caused a large rewrite, but IMHO, the BWB ought not to be around by the time the Others breach the Wall. They have no place in the story in the war against the Others. The War against the Others (as it will inevtiably come) has always been the pivotal 'war' of the series IMHO, with the whole War of the Five Kings and Three Queens as a pre-cursor, yes, a very well written and interesting pre-cursor but not the most important arc of the story nonetheless.

Jaime's character arc on the other hand, I don't think has come to an end. There are two things that I think are necessary to complete the circle on his arc, that is, firstly, meeting again with Tyrion, as the escape scene at the end of ASOS begs for closure in a second part, and secondly, the confrontation with Dany, Dany learning about her father's strengths and weaknesses will culminate in the vision in the House of the Undying (about the wildfire plot) being confirmed for her. Whilst Brienne and Jaime both know the truth, I can only imagine that the scene would work much better, and definitely be more electrically charged (if it makes it onto TV) with Jaime and Dany rather than Brienne and Dany. Given that Dany and Tyrion probably won't arrive back in Westeros before halfway through TWOW, IMO, it would be hard to close those two story arcs without Jaime surviving, especially the first. It would be a total shame if Jaime died believing that Tyrion killed Joffrey.

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As for Brienne, it never occurred to me while I was reading Jaime's ADWD chapter that she may have been undead at that point.

To be honest, if Brienne was undead, I reckon it would be a piece of bad writing. I don't think that GRRM should repeat that 'trick' so often.

Edited by Daemrion, 29 March 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[Errant Bard]

Daemrion, on 29 March 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

I guess, in my opinion, the first war should be 'over' before Dany/the Others (which is undoubtedly the more important war) comes to Westeros. Of course, cutting of the original timeskip between ASOS and AFFC/ADWD has probably caused a large rewrite, but IMHO, the BWB ought not to be around by the time the Others breach the Wall. They have no place in the story in the war against the Others.

For me, the two are not antithetical, and since the war for the Dawn is fought with people of westeros, then conquering/getting the realm behind you is quite important.

The Riverland resistance has, as such several uses: they provide a foothold for forces not allied with Lannisters (with Cersei at the head, never will the threat of "Others" be believed), they keep a link with the Starks so they can rally people more easily (It's probably the group Arya could most easily sway, for example), they decimate the hostile houses in a not too unbelievable fashion, they deal with R'hllor's magic, which will certainly come into play to counter Melisandre (Beric and Thoros' sword taking fire spontaneously is more worthy a being called "lightbringer" than the sunlight sword of Stannis), and they provide good railroading for the characters still unaligned (Jaime, Brienne, Gendry...) There is also some nifty story direction in regard to the Stark children knowing their mother is undead. (like, you know how destroy all the undeads/are tasked to end any unlife, what do you do when your mother is one of them, and you share her thirst for revenge? -Funny lines when Arya told herself that she didn't know the names of the Frey or she would have added all of them to her list-)

There is tons of uses for them in the narrative, to smooth the transition or the parallel between internal affairs and war with an external threat.

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meeting again with Tyrion, as the escape scene at the end of ASOS begs for closure in a second part, and secondly, the confrontation with Dany

I don't feel the first needs closure. To me when Tyrion lied to Jaime, it was closure: he spouted crap to hurt Jaime, and he will have to live with the regret, end of the story. The second I grant you, it would be more dramatic if it was Jaime versus Dany, but I can't help but feel it would be too melodramatic, and more than a little useless, compared to hearing a woman (resonance with Dany) who is not actually allied with Cersei, but working for the resistance (shows the utility of the BwB again.) I feel the very reason GRRM had Jaime tell Brienne was, on top of triggering some interesting conflict of interest in Brienne, plus the loss of innocence thing, is so that Brienne could tell other people. Without that, Brienne's story, while interesting, is only filler, and we didn't need her as PoV in AFFC.

Also, there's this rumoured slip by GRRM where he told kids that Brienne and Tyrion would discuss (rumoured because I won't look for it, but it still should be in SSM)

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To be honest, if Brienne was undead, I reckon it would be a piece of bad writing. I don't think that GRRM should repeat that 'trick' so often.

While I agree on principle, I'm not sure GRRM will not use the trick again, if only with Jon. It would make sense for priests with the resurrect spell to actually use the resurrect spell.

[Faint]

I’m continually surprised that so many anticipate a confrontation between Daenerys and Jaime, and further on, that it would be a moment fraught with all this underlying tension and drama. The two have barely thought of one another over the course of the five books and I doubt that, if they meet, it will in someway supersede this upcoming confrontation between Catelyn and Jaime (which has a lot of narrative work behind it). Beyond that, I’d think a meeting as momentous as proposed would assume a much more central role in the prophecies at the House of the Undying (and that is assuming the white lion is in some sense representative of Jaime, which is by no means assured).

[Timmay]

I’ve posted this thought before but thought I would add it too this discussion as I feel it is pertinent to any Brienne speculation. Maybe the below happens after Jaime has died adding more bittersweet to the moment.
I think the "Kingslayer scene" will be repeated but with a different king and different KingsGuard:

aSoS
“And I have seen it in the flames as well. R’hllor has blessed me with that gift. Like Lady Melisandre, he shows me the future in the fire. Stannis Baratheon will sit the Iron Throne. I have seen it.”
aCoK 687 From the Knight captured in the Battle of the Blackwater who would not swear fealty to Joff.
“The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!”

aCoK p422 Brienne addressing Cat.
”And I think, when the time comes, you will not try to hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis.”

Cat
”When the time comes, I will not hold you back.”
Perhaps even Lady Stoneheart will not hold her back...
aCoK 420 Cat
”You mean to kill Stannis.”
Brienne
”I swore a vow. Three times I swore. You heard me.”

In aSoS Jaime IX; Jaime gives Brienne the Valyrian steel sword his father gifted to him named Oathkeeper. Ok, so I don’t have a quote for this: Brienne ends up with a shield painted to match Ser Dunk the Tall’s shield (leading many to believe she is descended from Dunk, me included, can’t wait for next D&E short). Dunk, Former commander of the Kings Guard.
Now how about some fun with Timmay’s wild speculation. Brienne becomes the first Female member of the King’s Guard carrying a former LC's shield, Jaime gets her appointed (he’s LC afterall). Then Stannis gains the Iron Throne. And a second king gets his neck sliced by one of his White Cloaks (freaking awesome). Vindicating Jaime’s actions to both him and Brienne with the sword he gave her. And Brienne’s acceptance of Jaime comes full circle. Potential for some great writing in there...

Regarding Jaime, he has destiny with Tyrion and Cersei, I think the trip by these 2 to UnCat will be survived by both of them.

[Currawong]

Howlin, on 28 March 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

As for Brienne, it never occurred to me while I was reading Jaime's ADWD chapter that she may have been undead at that point. We have so little information to go on, that anything we come up with is nothing but pure conjecture. I will say, though, that I agree with what others have touched upon: That (a live) Brienne's internal conflict has all sorts of potential for interesting storytelling. The human heart in conflict, and all that (I hear GRRM is a fan as well... )

Agree completely.  Besides, if GRRM is just going to resort to having UnCat and UnBrienne assassinate Jaime, it means he has basically wasted thousands of words across several books setting up this whole aspect for both characters.  Not to mention it leaves the whole family conflict between Jaime/ Cersei and Jaime/Tyrion (and even Jaime/ Uncle Kevan) completely unresolved.  Again, rather a waste of many thousands of words     

Brienne is still very idealistic, almost an innocent abroad in her own way, and in some ways she still has some growing up to do.  Until now, keeping her oath has been a simple matter of personal honour for Brienne, who has never had to face up to the issues that Jaime summarised so neatly in his 'so many vows' speech in ACOK:

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  "So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

I suspect that wherever Jaime and Brienne have headed off to, this will be a central issue when we next meet them.  Of course, it may depend on just what Brienne has sworn to UnCat.  "I will bring you Jaime Lannister" doesn't necessarily mean she has to lead an unsuspecting lamb-like Jaime to the slaughter.   A one-armed Jaime who is aware of the trap and doing some plotting of his own with Brienne is a very different matter.    If ever there was a person who could help Brienne reconcile apparently conflicting oaths, it would be Jaime.    


There's also the delicious irony that both of them are now seen by most people as 'kingslayers' - Jaime for something he did do, having regard to the greater good, and Brienne for something she didn't do (Renly).   I'd like to think that just as Brienne has helped Jaime along his journey of discovering just 'who' Jaime Lannister really is, so Jaime will help Brienne to realise that sometimes, being 'honourable' isn't all that simple.  I certainly hope GRRM is not going to waste her story.

As for Jaime threatening to return Edmure Tully's child by trebuchet, I admit to having a good laugh at that, and thinking how much Tyrion would appreciate it.  The whole point of the threat was that everyone knew Jaime Lannister as the Kingslayer, and if he would break his oath to kill his king, of course he was perfectly capable of doing that to a newborn child!   To be effective, a threat has to be perfectly credible, and I saw this as a glorious example of Jaime now being a little more cunning in his dealings, and playing on his own reputation to achieve a bloodless victory.   He doesn't like himself for doing it, but as long as people believe he will carry it out - he IS a Lannister! - then he achieves his end without bloodshed.

[SetecAstronomy]

Happy Ent, on 09 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

What could be more beautiful? It’s what she ever wanted, it’s one for the songs. Having to honourably kill the man you love—it’s epic, tragic, romantic, chivalrous, heartbreaking.

How would you not want to read that? How can even Brienne refuse? It’s perfect.

The only thing that could make this more tragic would be for Jaime to bestow knighthood on Brienne before it "all goes down."