112 replies to this topic

[It Rhymes With Meek]

Errant Bard, on 29 March 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Also, there's this rumoured slip by GRRM where he told kids that Brienne and Tyrion would discuss (rumoured because I won't look for it, but it still should be in SSM)

Wait, what's the rumor?  That Brienne and and Tyrion would discuss what?  My searching of the SSM's hasn't come up with anything so far...

[Net-Viper X]

The way Brienne showed up and did the old "come over here I need to show you something" ploy makes me think that the BwB camp can't be too far away from where Jaime's army is. Its a very big possibility that the Lannisters would have sent a few tails to follow at a discrete distance to keep an eye on their commander. Probably right about time that Jaime is being strung up on the noose, along with Brienne for protesting Jaime's hanging, the Lannister army will show up and smash the BwB to save the day. This will be the first act that begins the transformation of Jaime's Lannister army into a force of good in Westeros.

[Happy Ent]

SetecAstronomy, on 04 April 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The only thing that could make this more tragic would be for Jaime to bestow knighthood on Brienne before it "all goes down."

Beautiful idea!

[Lady Octarina]

Net-Viper X, on 05 April 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

The way Brienne showed up and did the old "come over here I need to show you something" ploy makes me think that the BwB camp can't be too far away from where Jaime's army is. Its a very big possibility that the Lannisters would have sent a few tails to follow at a discrete distance to keep an eye on their commander. Probably right about time that Jaime is being strung up on the noose, along with Brienne for protesting Jaime's hanging, the Lannister army will show up and smash the BwB to save the day. This will be the first act that begins the transformation of Jaime's Lannister army into a force of good in Westeros.

I doubt the BwB was that close to Jaime's army, or that anyone followed them. In the epilogue, hasn't Jaime been missing for at least two weeks or so, according to Kevan?

[Not Only But Also]

The whole BWB/Brienne/Jaime thread is one of the ones I am most interested in (not more than that of the Starks, including Jon, of course, but after those, yes), so I would like to think that neither the BWB nor the Jaime storylines is about to be over, at least not yet.  

I do think that the thread has to expand, though, but I'm not sure how. This is a place (at least with unCat) where I would like to really see the Stark girls (hurry home, Arya!) interface, but I'm not sure that's realistic.  At the very least, I'd like to see Ilyn Payce come into play (after all, he has been doing all that sword 'training' with Jaime at night, and hope that if not Sansa, at least word of her, as well as the introduction of at least one person from The North.  And I wonder (again, am aware this may not be logical) if this is the 'place' in the story where somehow the Sansa is not Alayne revelation can ocur.

Someone else mentioned above the possibility that Jaime could be taken hostage (again!).  This, too, would be interesting to follow.

[The King's Prize]

Sorry to revive a slightly old thread, but has anyone considered that it might not be Brienne at all who comes to get Jaime, but someone under a glamour? After all, the BwB have Thoros of Myr, a red priest. Quite a big deal was made out of using glamours in ADWD which makes me feel that there must be some other character under one, and she would fit. It would also explain Jaime feeling she looked different, even taking into account the state of her face.

This could also lead to a potential set up for something like Jaime killing 'Brienne' when she draws steel on him, only to realise later that she is still alive (GRRM's favourite 'oh they're dead but now they're not' trick). It would also be a safe option for Lady Stoneheart as it would mean Brienne could not betray her.

Just an idea, but I haven't seen it suggested before.

[Lady Octarina]

The King, on 01 May 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Sorry to revive a slightly old thread, but has anyone considered that it might not be Brienne at all who comes to get Jaime, but someone under a glamour? After all, the BwB have Thoros of Myr, a red priest. Quite a big deal was made out of using glamours in ADWD which makes me feel that there must be some other character under one, and she would fit. It would also explain Jaime feeling she looked different, even taking into account the state of her face.

This could also lead to a potential set up for something like Jaime killing 'Brienne' when she draws steel on him, only to realise later that she is still alive (GRRM's favourite 'oh they're dead but now they're not' trick). It would also be a safe option for Lady Stoneheart as it would mean Brienne could not betray her.

Just an idea, but I haven't seen it suggested before.

Indeed, I had never seen this suggested before. And whereas it's not impossible, I think it's unlikely, for Brienne can be much more developed as a character if facing the hard moral choices her betrayal of Jaime would raise. Also, Jaime thinks she looks ten years older than the last time he saw her, but that doesn't mean much, if we consider all the stressful situations she went through in what? Five months?

But the idea this could be a glamour is unsettling, for this could mean she actually died on that tree. I mean, that was the case with Mance and Rattleshirt.

Anyway, I'm not sure if glamouring is something that all red priests can do. As I've said in some other threads, I've always seen Melisandre as some kind of heretic in the red religion, with her shadowbinding and everything. I think this glamouring ability might also be something from Asshai, not Rh'lorism.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The sorceror Brynden Rivers can use a gem-based glamour to appear to be someone he’s not. He’s not from Asshai, but we have no way to know where he learned that skill nor from whom. It may have been from Shiera Seastar or her mother.

[The King's Prize]

Lady Octarina, on 01 May 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Anyway, I'm not sure if glamouring is something that all red priests can do. As I've said in some other threads, I've always seen Melisandre as some kind of heretic in the red religion, with her shadowbinding and everything. I think this glamouring ability might also be something from Asshai, not Rh'lorism.

I remember though that when Arya is having her face changed by the FM they mention the other disguises that people use, including that red priests use glamours as a method. While there is still a possibility that this might be unique to the ones in Asshai, it seems to imply that it's a fairly universal power of the religion.

[Lady Octarina]

CrypticWeirwood, on 01 May 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

The sorceror Brynden Rivers can use a gem-based glamour to appear to be someone he’s not. He’s not from Asshai, but we have no way to know where he learned that skill nor from whom. It may have been from Shiera Seastar or her mother.

I'm not doubting your word, but where is it stated? Because I don't remember reading this about Bloodraven.

The King, on 02 May 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

I remember though that when Arya is having her face changed by the FM they mention the other disguises that people use, including that red priests use glamours as a method. While there is still a possibility that this might be unique to the ones in Asshai, it seems to imply that it's a fairly universal power of the religion.

Oh, I didn't know that. But it still stands that this wouldn't be the best thing to happen to Brienne as a character.

[abneg]

Jaime will not die, and if he does he will remain undead. He has yet to strangle Cersai as predicted by the crone. Cersai is convinced that 'younger brother' refers to Tyrion, her mistake I think. So far the crone has been 100% correct.

[Mumatil]

Jem, on 05 March 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

No, I don't think she has been brainwashed. I think that this will be a major development for Brienne's character.

Brienne is one of the most honorable characters in the story and it is important to her to maintain her "knightly" virtues. So what is going to happen when she is forced to face up to the two people to which she has sworn a vow? What happens when these two people hate each other bitterly (or at least one hates the other)? Who will Brienne serve? What choices will she have to make? How will she be able to reconcile her honor with her choices?

GRRM has made it clear that nothing is clear and nothing is easy - not power, not honor, not glory. The latter two make good horse names, but that is it. People have to make complicated choices in life and life isn't always a basket of roses.

Would she break her oath to save an oathbreaker(as she calls him) who she also swore an oath too.

Grrm did well to have this choice on such a cliff hanger

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Hey a little off topic but I was reading the Brienne/Uncat trial yesterday and noticed something.  Un-Cat was holding Robb's crown in her hands (the iron and bronze sword crown of the north).  In Jaime's last chapter at Riverrun the senior Frey approaches him and Edmure at the gallows with a prostitute who wearing the crown declares herself the "Queen 'O Whores".  Jaime tells him to pack his crap and go, and orders him to have the crown sent to his tent as well.  So did the Frey take off with the crown only to have him and his retinue hanged?  Or did the BWB minstrel grab it from Jaime before he departed Riverrun?  Just trying to figure out how Lady Stoneheart got Robbs crown back to see if anything of import there.

In any case I have a feeling either Jaime kills Brienne or Vice-versa in this meeting with Lady Stoneheart.  that's not what I want to happen as I love both characters but I cannot imagine a convincing scenario where they both live happily ever after in a GRRM world.  I somehow feel Brienne will sacrifice herself to jaime in a duel and he will inadvertently forge lightbringer and become AA reborn...  but who knows?  

[Uncle Impe]

The Smelly Peasant, on 05 March 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

IIRC Brienne says that Jaime must come with her "alone". He has been around long enough to be able to smell a rat, so it will be fascinating to see how he responds. Also, the impact of the snowstorm on this whole caper....would put the two of them together in time to smote some Others with their Valyrian steel

What do you mean by

Quote

He has been around long enough to be able to smell a rat, so it will be fascinating to see how he responds.

? We know how he responds, he goes with her and disappears.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Uncle Impe, on 04 September 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

What do you mean by
? We know how he responds, he goes with her and disappears.

LOL yeah as mentioned upthread it seem Kevan remarks on Jaime's absence in his prologue chapter.  According to him I believe noone knows where he is for a couple of weeks at that point.  (sry don't have ADWD handy or I'd do an accurate quote)

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Ser Endrew Tarth, on 04 September 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Hey a little off topic but I was reading the Brienne/Uncat trial yesterday and noticed something.  Un-Cat was holding Robb's crown in her hands (the iron and bronze sword crown of the north).  In Jaime's last chapter at Riverrun the senior Frey approaches him and Edmure at the gallows with a prostitute who wearing the crown declares herself the "Queen 'O Whores".  Jaime tells him to pack his crap and go, and orders him to have the crown sent to his tent as well.  So did the Frey take off with the crown only to have him and his retinue hanged?  Or did the BWB minstrel grab it from Jaime before he departed Riverrun?  Just trying to figure out how Lady Stoneheart got Robbs crown back to see if anything of import there.

In any case I have a feeling either Jaime kills Brienne or Vice-versa in this meeting with Lady Stoneheart.  that's not what I want to happen as I love both characters but I cannot imagine a convincing scenario where they both live happily ever after in a GRRM world.  I somehow feel Brienne will sacrifice herself to jaime in a duel and he will inadvertently forge lightbringer and become AA reborn...  but who knows?  

im pretty sure Stoneheart et. al. hung Ryman Frey and his party of about 15 (Ryman included).  Brienne and Thoros indicate in their conversation that Stoneheart went to Fairmarket when they were sleeping, but had returned.  Ryman was hung 2 leagues south of fairmarket. and Tom O'Sevens was still in Riverrun after the siege and was looking to winter over there. So yes Stoneheart has the crown because she killed Ryman and took back the crown.

Edited by By the Old Gods Not theNew, 04 September 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

By the Old Gods Not theNew, on 04 September 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

im pretty sure Stoneheart et. al. hung Ryman Frey and his party of about 15 (Ryman included).  Brienne and Thoros indicate in their conversation that Stoneheart went to Fairmarket when they were sleeping, but had returned.  Ryman was hung 2 leagues south of fairmarket. and Tom O'Sevens was still in Riverrun after the siege and was looking to winter over there. So yes Stoneheart has the crown because she killed Ryman and took back the crown.

Ok thanks, I was unsure if there was a moment in Jaime's tent (after the gallows exchange) where he held the crown and didn't have my AFFC handy.

If ever a Frey deserved the noose it was Ryman, I mean, what an A$$.  Even his own son insults him when Jaime has him take command.  I only wish Black Walder had decided to join him.  Whoa, these Freys are as despicable as they are numerous.  LONG LIVE LADY STONEHEART!  lol

[Uncle Impe]

Ser Endrew Tarth, on 04 September 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Hey a little off topic but I was reading the Brienne/Uncat trial yesterday and noticed something.  Un-Cat was holding Robb's crown in her hands (the iron and bronze sword crown of the north).  In Jaime's last chapter at Riverrun the senior Frey approaches him and Edmure at the gallows with a prostitute who wearing the crown declares herself the "Queen 'O Whores".  Jaime tells him to pack his crap and go, and orders him to have the crown sent to his tent as well.  So did the Frey take off with the crown only to have him and his retinue hanged?  Or did the BWB minstrel grab it from Jaime before he departed Riverrun?  Just trying to figure out how Lady Stoneheart got Robbs crown back to see if anything of import there.

In any case I have a feeling either Jaime kills Brienne or Vice-versa in this meeting with Lady Stoneheart.  that's not what I want to happen as I love both characters but I cannot imagine a convincing scenario where they both live happily ever after in a GRRM world.  I somehow feel Brienne will sacrifice herself to jaime in a duel and he will inadvertently forge lightbringer and become AA reborn...  but who knows?  

He was not instructed as what to do with the crown, Just that he was not taking it. Either he took it with him and consequently lost it when the outlaws attacked and killed his entire party or else, the singer Tom O Sevenstrings, (he is an outlaw disguised as a singer in the Frey camp laying seige to Riverrun) snagged it and sent it Catelyn.

[embers]

Wow, this is an interesting thread...  I have to say that I see no reason to assume that Brienne of Tarth is dead, I think it is possible that whatever she yelled out caused ZombieCatelyn to save her life...

And I see no reason to think that Brienne cried out in fear:  I think she was despairing that after having failed to keep her oath to Renly Baratheon (by not keeping him alive) she was now judged guilty of failing in her oath to Catelyn....  As far as I can see NOTHING is as important to Brienne as fulfilling her oath.  Brienne would rather die than have Catelyn think she willingly failed her.

I also see no reason to assume that Brienne is in love with Jaime....  She was head over heels in love with Renly Baratheon and I see no reason to think that she has had a change of heart yet.
I do think that Jaime is more than a little in love with Brienne:  whenever they are apart Jaime dreams about Brienne, and imagines her as more beautiful/feminine than she is.... he is always surprised that she is more homely than he remembered her (so his thinking he looked 10 years older didn't mean that much to me, it was typical of him to have been imagining her younger and prettier than she ever was).

I think that Brienne wouldn't hesitate to turn Jaime over to ZombieCatelyn if that was what demanded of her.

[LordAlexOfTheWolds]

At an event (the name of which I can't remember), somebody asked what word Brienne shouted. GRRM opened the floor to suggestions and somebody shouted "Sword", which he confirmed. She chose to offer her sword to UnCat to save the lives of herself and her two companions, and to show she was still UnCat's servant, upon which she was told to get Jamie.