35 replies to this topic

[Howling Mad]

Both Drogo and LF are scum in my book -

[Alys Karstark]

Just to add a little to LF's creepiness:

-----------------------------------------------------
From ASOS when Sansa built a snow replica of Winterfell

Petyr said, "May I come into your castle, my lady?"

Sansa was wary. "Don't break it. Be . . .

". . gentle?" He smiled.

[Thrice the Hound]

The Black Wolf, on 04 March 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

So, really, if you think Littlefinger is creepy for fancying Sansa even though she's so young, shouldn't you think Drogo is too?

Just something that hit me when I re-read that Dany chapter and realized how old Drogo was (and how young Dany was!)...

LF creeps me out for other reasons. For me it's got more to do with how he behaves toward Sansa and the fact he killed Lysa so easily after using her so completely. That is what creeps me out about him and what he could/will possibly do to Sansa who has no power to defend herself. Its the manipulating and using that gives me the shudders.

Dany and Drogo shocked me at first but as their relationship grew I got used to it because Dany did. I think the difference is how they ended up being so close in the end. Dany took a bad situation by the scruff and shook it into a situation that suited her better, we havent seen that kind of ability to make things happen with Sansa yet.

[The Black Wolf]

Alys Karstark, on 05 March 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

Just to add a little to LF's creepiness:

-----------------------------------------------------
From ASOS when Sansa built a snow replica of Winterfell

Petyr said, "May I come into your castle, my lady?"

Sansa was wary. "Don't break it. Be . . .

". . gentle?" He smiled.

Yeah, I thought that was very creepy too... haha. That's what I love about Sansa's interactions with Littlefinger, they are really interesting. At the same time that he seems "nice" and like he's trying to help her, he really sort of scares me at times. It's a bit like how the scenes with Sansa and Gregor were really interesting...

And about LF killing Lysa... I didn't like Littlefinger at all before that, but I really hated her, so that just made me love him! (and he helped kill Joffrey, whom I hated even more than Lysa, if that's at all possible)  

[ipsuel]

To me the difference is that Dany was a willing partner... yes, at first the age difference bothered me (as it has in these books from jump) -- but Dany/Drogo turned to love... hell, on night #1 she went from "No, No, No" to "Yes, yes, yes" --- lol, didn't take long.

Sansa has NEVER been interested in Petyr. She was not married to him, and they are playing the role of father/daughter. Yep, to me that is FAR creepier than a MARRIAGE with a young girl (which happens to be the NORM).

They are night and day.

[Skeksi]

JKeats, on 04 March 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

Going purely off of my conversations with people IRL (small sample size, limited probative value, etc.), the explanation for the double standard seems simple and discouraging.

Drogo is described as strong, attractive, and in general a stud.  LF is a short little dweeby guy.  The latter gets tagged a creeper much more readily than the former.

Not saying that's the entire explanation, but it is very much the sense I get from the folks I hear from away from these boards.

People have no taste- Drogo is muscly and boring. Littlefinger is slender, clever and charming

On a more serious, less drooly note... basically, I think this thread pretty much proves Lady Kraken's post. There's a variety of reasons, some of it down to which characters you like and which you don't, some down to how the relationship "appears" to you, and the reactions of both parties-e.g. I love Littlefinger to pieces, but I still find the vibe between him and Sansa creepy- though less so than Sandor at the Battle of the Blackwater, or Tyrion in the early part of the wedding night- there's kind of a consistent low level creepitude to it rather than "Suddenly, a wild rape threat appeared". And like I say, whilst I don't like Drogo himself, I find his and Dany's relationship a lot more uncomfortable to read.

[Melpomene]

My guess for the endearment that has overwhelmingly stemmed for the Dany/Drogo relationship, is the fact that it was an arranged marriaged and out of all odds, it ended up being not as bad as it could be.

At least for me, personally - I mainly felt relief. Dany was placed in a forced and compromising position, an alliance with an older-barbarian tough-guy warrior-rapist that could easily turn sour.  I was worried for the worst on their wedding night, but instead it turn out ok - he was suprisingly gentle at that brief moment, then they eventually warmed up to each other more and more in a "mutual" way.That was the only thing I liked about that relationship, was that relief that there was no violence or sexual abuse between the two. Dany, also initially has a form of power herself by being the great leader's wife.


Whereas Sansa is in a compromising position on her own where she doen't have her personal power yet - almost fully dependent, at the moment, of Petyr's care and gaurdianship. And doesn't even have her true identity. Dany had the identity of a Khaleesi, Sansa has to have the identity of a bastard.


Dany was %100 new and oblivious to the idea of marriage and love. Sansa already had WAY more experience with such a thing; Betrothed to Joffrey, who threatened to rape her repeatedly. Had her clothes torn off in public. A man like Blount made his moves on her. Sandor had demanded signs of her affection from her. Became suddenly married to Tyrion. Petyr made advancement on her. And is now possiblty engaged again. And it was all before she even lost her own virginity.

Sansa and Dany were around the same age, yet Dany was new when it came to Drogo, and learned just from him. He was her first in absolutely everything, which would also explain why she would be drawn to him too, with a more fantasy-like view on reality. Sansa has learned from all over the place, and became more knowledgable. So when it came to Petyr making moves on her, she knew -  She knew she did not want this. She learned, she grew, she became more aware and woke up into reality.

Plus, there is the whole thing where Petyr just seems to be infatuated with the past,  as Sansa looks like the woman - her mother- that he loves. It is not like he loves Sansa herself, but in love with a fantasy.

And he just has wild sex with her own aunt, a scene that Sansa witnessed regularly. I really woudn't like to think if my aunts husband made moves on me after the two of them had a public rendezvous nearby.


So yeah, I am not a fan of Drogo at all - I am not a fan of either scenerio, really. I find that they are slightly different from each other, but neither are better than the other either.


And the main reason I originally liked the Sandor/Sansa dynamic...is that he actually backs off. More character hidden in that guy compared to his outer rough exterior. He seemed to have been the only "true knight" towards her in the end. Obviously it is not a perfect situation, and if they did ever get together I would rather have it where Sansa is much older, lol.

Edited by Melpomene, 05 March 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Frey Pie]

I think theyre both weird as is Sansa and the Hound.Jaime and Cerseis also weird but at least its not really pervy creepy weird-not that i think its alright eitther!!

[ChromeWeasel]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

I never got the romanticization of Drogo or his and Dany's relationship. I think a lot of what people are mistaking for love is actually Stockholm syndrome or something similar. He was a brutal, pillaging rapist and Dany's vision suggests that Rhaego would have been the same way had he lived. Good riddance to both of them.

Who did Drogo rape? Are you speaking generic terms of how his culture thinks, or are you talking about a specific example?

[ChromeWeasel]

ipsuel, on 05 March 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

To me the difference is that Dany was a willing partner... yes, at first the age difference bothered me (as it has in these books from jump) -- but Dany/Drogo turned to love... hell, on night #1 she went from "No, No, No" to "Yes, yes, yes" --- lol, didn't take long.

Sansa has NEVER been interested in Petyr. She was not married to him, and they are playing the role of father/daughter. Yep, to me that is FAR creepier than a MARRIAGE with a young girl (which happens to be the NORM).

They are night and day.

Sansa is at least mildly interested in Baelish. When he kissed her her initial reaction is to pull away, but she does mention something about not letting herself submit. My understanding was that she's mildly aroused. People can call that creepy all they want, but it's not unrealistic. He's the closest thing to her 'white knight savior' fantasy in real life, not to mention brilliant, rich, and becoming one of the most powerful men in Westeros.

[KhaleesiDany]

I am definitely one who thinks Drogo/Dany is romantic, and LF/sansa is the creepiest thing ever.

My reason: cultural relativism.

I don't think  of Drogo as a "barbarian" because the Dothraki have a lot of elements based on Mongolian culture and I believe thinking of that type of lifestyle as "barbaric" is failing to acknowledge all the beautiful and beneficial things about that/their culture. To be honest I think it is kind of insulting. You guys should read this book Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World!

What did Drogo ever do to Dany that was wrong? Surely you didn't expect him not to have sex with his beautiful young bride on their wedding night?

I thought the relationship between Dany and Drogo was romantic because before Dany married him, she was nothing but her brother's pawn but afterwards she gains a lot of agency and power. She even says she always assumed she would marry her brother, so marrying someone else was a surprise to her.

I love the relationship with Dany to Drogo because it shows how she moves from viewing him like many of us do--as a frightening, uncouth barbarian--to really loving him and seeing that his culture is more complex than at first glance. They didn't even speak a common language and they still crossed those bridges.

After Dany marries into the Dothraki, she becomes a Queen in her own right, can stand up to her brother, and I will always remember those scenea when she is riding with the Khalasar on her silver with braided hair like a true Dothraki. Dany gains a lot of agency for marring Drogo--far from viewing herself afterwards as an underage rape victim.

Sansa, on the other hand, has practically no agency and Petyr repeatedly takes advantage of the fact so that I read these books terrified he is going to take advantage of her the other way, too. Petyr kills people just to get to Sansa so you know he is just using her as a pawn in his political games. He even changes her name so no one will know he's got her. Out of the frying pan and into the fire, it seems like.

By Westerosi standards what Petyr is doing is wrong, because by rights Sansa should be up in Winterfell not hustled by men trying to take control of the north. While the dothraki don't give a lot of rights to women, Petyr doesn't even acknowledge the rights Sansa does have because she is in no position to enforce them. That's why Tyrion and the Hound are sweet to Sansa by comparison--they know they have power over her, but they don't use it.

Bottom line: Drogo gave power and agency to Dany through their alliance, Petyr takes those things away from Sansa

[Purah]

I adore Littlefinger as a character, but yes his relationship with Sansa is disturbing but not because of the age gap. To me it shows just how unhinged and obsessed LF is. He's building this fantasty where Sansa sees him as her "saviour", eradicating her identity and slowly warping her psyche, which is a total contrast to Dany, who blossomed because of her relationship with Drogo. That's the creepy element of it. I also have this really, really nasty feeling that Sansa will eventually submit to him because of this (her resistance seems to be lowering throughout AFFC as she allows him to kiss "her on the lips for a long time"), rather than Petyr finally losing control.

Admittedly though, I bet if we knew more about Petyr's childhood, we might have a bit more sympathy for him. I kind of get the impression that he used to be a blob of adorable before becoming disillusioned, bitter and cynical...but that might just be wild mass guess on my part.

[eyeheartsansa]

LF's treatment of Sansa has waaay more layers of creepiness to it than Drogo and Dany.

Drogo/Dany is relatively straightforward.  GRRM has stated that he meant for it to be a love story, and that in retrospect, he would probably have aged Dany a few years - like he had to for HBO.  The 'sweet' thing about it is that eventually Dany had him wrapped around her finger.

@Khalissi Dany: you hit the nail on the head.

[Water Dancing]

Idk. I think it's hot. Also, does anyone know where the 'like' option went? I liked that option :[

[Sneak]

Skeksi, on 05 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

On a more serious, less drooly note... basically, I think this thread pretty much proves Lady Kraken's post. There's a variety of reasons, some of it down to which characters you like and which you don't, some down to how the relationship "appears" to you, and the reactions of both parties-e.g. I love Littlefinger to pieces, but I still find the vibe between him and Sansa creepy- though less so than Sandor at the Battle of the Blackwater, or Tyrion in the early part of the wedding night- there's kind of a consistent low level creepitude to it rather than "Suddenly, a wild rape threat appeared". And like I say, whilst I don't like Drogo himself, I find his and Dany's relationship a lot more uncomfortable to read.

I agree with this, especially the bolded part. My thoughts exactly. I think the Hound is very creepy toward Sansa, but people seem to over look this. The Battle of the Blackwater scene was reeeeally creepy, and I was seriously worried for Sansa. I don't get SanSan shippers. I was glad Tyrion restrained himself, but I wasn't as worried for Sansa that time compared to after the Battle. LF is creepy, but IMO this creepyness comes more from his obsession with Catelyn than anything else. If you take that away, I think his interest in Sansa would still be weird, but a little more acceptable.

WRT Dany/Drogo, I never saw the romance. I don't really like Drogo and Dany's 'love' for him didn't seem like love at all.  Perhaps infatuation?

Also the age difference between any of the characters doesn't bother me at all, my grandfather was 18 years older than my grandmother.

[Adar]

eyeheartsansa, on 17 April 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

LF's treatment of Sansa has waaay more layers of creepiness to it than Drogo and Dany.

Drogo/Dany is relatively straightforward.  GRRM has stated that he meant for it to be a love story, and that in retrospect, he would probably have aged Dany a few years - like he had to for HBO.  The 'sweet' thing about it is that eventually Dany had him wrapped around her finger.

@Khalissi Dany: you hit the nail on the head.

I am glad you shared that.

I am a believer in Dany & Drogo because I saw the TV show before I read the books and the actors just had the most amazing chemistry. As good as GRRM is words, the way they looked at each other was indescribable. I am convinced that their portrayal of the romance was what GRRM intended. I did enjoy reading the book, but I'm glad I saw the show first. It was a beautiful and captivating story.

It was hard to get past the fact that Dany was 13, but I realize that GRRM wad trying to make it as realistic as possible. It'd be hard to find a beautiful 17 year old virgin in the world he is describing. Life was short and unpredictable so babies had to be made as soon as possible.

I really thought Dany & Drogo were a perfect match. In spite of Drogo's culture, he was a really good person. It was obvious that he was open to adopting civilized ways. He wouldn't have married Dany if he wasn't. Illyrio was the matchmaker, so it wasn't like Drogo deliberately asked for a 13 year old.

The conversation probably went like:

ILLYRIO: Hey bro. Why aren't you married yet?  You are such a fine catch. You can't bachelor forever.

DROGO: I just haven't seen the right woman yet. I like blonds with hair like the moon, but I don't know any single ones.

ILLYRIO: I've got one living with me. You will be enraptured by her. She is young and beautiful. She has had her moon blood, so she is a woman ready to give you the cutest mixed-race sons and daughters.

DROGO: Okay. Let me see her first.

* Drogo sees her * Swoons * Moon of my life * Dany loves him back *

Anyway.... it isn't at all the creepiness that we find with Petyr and Sansa. He has known her since she was a baby so he is kind of like her uncle. He was in love with Sansa's mother who did not reciprocate the feelings. He was partly responsible for the execution of her father. He knows that Sansa is vulnerable and he conspired to put her in that vulnerable situation. It is super creepy. He is fully aware of his actions, but continues them because he really likes the feeling that he can get away with it.

To me, ASOIAF is not about rules of what is right and wrong. It really explores human consciousness, motivations, and what really lies beneath the surface of what makes people do what they do. It is really quite a brilliant.