78 replies to this topic

[Howling Mad]

"Theon Greyjoy had once commmented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name.  Old Nan had cackled like a hen when Bran told her that, and confessed that Hodor's real name was Walder.  No one knew where 'Hoder' had come from, she said, but when he started saying it, they started calling him by it.  It was the only word he had."  AGOT, pg 242.

"'Hodor,' Bran agreed, wondering what it meant."  AGOT pg. 582.

Why keep the meaning of the word "Hodor" secret through five books unless GRRM intends to make the reveal a central point in the conclusion of ASOIAF?  If the meaning of "Hodor" does have an impact on the conclusion what could it be?

Most everyone predicts that GRRM will bring the story around to include a massive battle between the Others and the Nights Watch.  Many believe that GRRM will make Dany's dragons (or other dragons e.g. below Winterfell) a major feature of the battle with the Others.  We know that Dany was able to teach her dragons a few words of old High Valyrian such as "Dracarys" or "dragonfire". ASOS pg 115.  

However, Dany has stuggled to to find a way to control her dragons. To this point of the story there are two theories being proffered on how to control dragons: 1. the Valyrian horn found by Euron Greyjoy, and 2. Warging.

I think their is a third possibility, the magic word "Hodor".  Hodor aka Walder is in the North beyond the wall with Bran and the COTF.  Which places "Hodor" in the right place to make a contribution to the outocme with the battle against the Others when the meaning of the word "Hodor" is revealed. It's hinted at that Hodor is part giant therfore I beleibe it's more likely that the meaning of "Hodor" will have more to do with the language of the COTF rather than High Valyrian.

On the way to the Wall Tyrion Lannister is reading a very old and rare book borrowed from Winterfell about dragons, admitting to Jon Snow that he was fascinated with dragons as a child. AGOT pgs. 121-124.

Given the events of ADWD it's likely that Tyrion will acompany Dany back to Westeros, if Dany's return leads to the Wall then it is likely that Tyrion, who does not beleive that the Others exist, will be in a position to make a contribution to the battle with the Others.  Keep in mind that Tyrion Lannister and Jon Snow parted as friends when Tyrion left the Wall (AGOT pg. 213) and I believe that GRRM will bring these friends back together.  

If "Hodor" is a magic word for controlling dragons there are then 4 possible methods of learning the meaning of the word "Hodor" in keeping with the story so far; the meaning is revealed by: 1) the COTF; 2) Tyrion Lannister's study of dragons; 3) Bran or another character calling "Hodor" by name in the presence of the dragons; or 4) Walder the big "Hodor" himself tells us what it means.

Thoughts, comments?

Edited by Howling4Reed, 04 March 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[The Shadowbinder]

Sounds interesting... perhaps farfetched, but thanks for keeping it fresh. If this theory is the case how do you suppose that Hodor learned the word hodor? I get that he's part giant (possibly, I think more like part Dunk) ...but that wouldn't explain how he learned the word right?

[ZacharyB]

How did Hodor learn this magical dragon controlling word?

shadowbinder ninja'd me : D

Edited by ZacharyB, 04 March 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Early Earl]

I think number 4 most likely and it will be written like this:
"Hodor hodor HODOR", Hodor said urgently, but noone understood what was upsetting him. Those who actually paid attention that is, as most of the nightwatch stared at the sight of the dragons taking down the wall.

[Jerritus]

Hodor is the Patchface of Winterfell. He do be a wizard.

[Midnight Star]

Wow...very interesting crackpot theory

On a serious note i always though that GRRM hid something in that 'name' ...like a anagram or something which is relevant to the story, but i couldn't figure out anything.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

Oh man, imagine chapters from Hodor's perspective.

Quote

Hodor hodor hodor, Hodor wondered quietely, stroking the mouse, hodor hodor.

But yeah, I've avoided reading what you've wrote since I'm still reading but I agree, I think there's something in that word.

Edited by Claymore, 04 March 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[chris999]

eh. I just think that GRRM made Hodor a "simpleminded" brute so that weak little Bran has an avenue to warg into him when he needs to fight or protect himself and his friends.

It is stated that it is hard to warg into a human because their will is so powerfull, and fights off an attempt at being warged. Hodor being simpleminded makes it easier for Bran to warg him at a seconds notice. It is convenient that Bran has Hodor around, and I dont think that he has any secret purpose other than that.

*edited for clarification*

Edited by chris999, 05 March 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[Alys Karstark]

Howling4Reed, on 04 March 2012 - 04:46 PM, said:

"Theon Greyjoy had once commmented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name."

AGOT, pg 242.

And then in ADWD, we witnessed that Theon was taught the importance of knowing your name...

[Howling Mad]

The Shadowbinder, on 04 March 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Sounds interesting... perhaps farfetched, but thanks for keeping it fresh. If this theory is the case how do you suppose that Hodor learned the word hodor? I get that he's part giant (possibly, I think more like part Dunk) ...but that wouldn't explain how he learned the word right?

I just received my Legend books via UPS this week, I'm looking forward to learning more about Dunk then I have read in the threads.

Edited by Howling4Reed, 04 March 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[Know Face Man]

Hodor has to be a son of Ser Dunk the Tall.

If Hodor knew more then what its seems Bran would have been able to see that when he warged into him

[Howling Mad]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

If Hodor knew more then what its seems Bran would have been able to see that when he warged into him

There is no evidence that I am aware of that warging equates to a mind meld. Actually, all of the instances of warging, animal and human, have shown the characters being in that moment of time without the warger knowing the wargee's memories.

Edited by Howling4Reed, 05 March 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[irishtemper]

Howling4Reed, on 05 March 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

There is no evidence that I am aware of that warging equates to a mind meld. Actually, all of the instances of warging, animal and human, have shown the characters being in that moment of time without the warger knowing the wargee's memories.

There is no evidence against that, but the prologue of ADWD shows that when a skinchanger tries to warg the body of a moderately strong-minded person that it doesn't work out too well and the person goes crazy.  Hodor just goes away to some secluded place in his mind when Bran wargs into him...so yeah I think its safe to say that Hodor doesn't have much knowledge.

[The Duke]

Know Face Man, on 04 March 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Hodor has to be a son of Ser Dunk the Tall.

Except Dunk died years before Hodor was born.  IIRC, Hodor is in his late teens, Dunk died in his 60's, and Dunk and Egg is about 100 years before ASOIAF.  Grandson maybe.

[Chise]

The Duke, on 05 March 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Except Dunk died years before Hodor was born.  IIRC, Hodor is in his late teens, Dunk died in his 60's, and Dunk and Egg is about 100 years before ASOIAF.  Grandson maybe.

while do agree on grandson theory, D&E isn't thaat far back. Walder Frey makes an appearance as a snot-nosed brat, so 80 years ago tops

IT'd be pretty damn hilarious if Hodor got Frey blood. doesn't Old Nan mention his name is Walder at some point?

[Alys Karstark]

Chise, on 05 March 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

while do agree on grandson theory, D&E isn't thaat far back. Walder Frey makes an appearance as a snot-nosed brat, so 80 years ago tops

IT'd be pretty damn hilarious if Hodor got Frey blood. doesn't Old Nan mention his name is Walder at some point?

So... ON + WF = H?

As we have seen from Lord Walder's numerous children, none of them is particularly tall. If Hodor is indeed Walder and Nan's, then the "giant blood" might have come from Nan?

[DragonSpawn]

I reckon we will see bran in the next dunk and egg book plant a dream in dunks head so that dunk and old nan end up having Hodor... Either that or its the answer to Tyrions riddle... "where do whores go?" ... Through the hoe-door! Osha thought he was endowed like a giant... Maybe he's the westeros equivalent of Allen from 'the other guys'

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Quote

However, Dany has stuggled to to find a way to control her dragons. To this point of the story there are two theories being proffered on how to control dragons: 1. the Valyrian horn found by Euron Greyjoy, and 2. Warging.

First, I disagree with this.  While there is still definitely some mystery as to what purpose the horn will serve (and it definitely appears to have something to do with dragons), for me the jury is still out on exactly what effect it will have (I think the Greyjoys may be in for some nasty surprises when it comes to how it actually plays out).  It seems agreed that the Targs (at least the most recent ones to have dragons) controlled them through training and, more importantly, the decisions on the dragons' parts regarding who may ride them vs who may be crispy-fried by them.  Not via magic so much as perhaps some level of esoteric knowledge.  

Regarding warging dragons, I have seen many posts state that warging a dragon would simply be impossible, and I tend to agree with this.  If an extremely powerful warg/skinchanger like Varamyr cannot even warg a human of standard intelligence/strength, I find it difficult if not impossible to believe that a human could warg a dragon, a much stronger and stronger-minded target.

Lastly (on controlling dragons), Dany seems to be finding that it is a combination of training, fearlessness of the dragon, and the dragon choosing to allow itself to be tamed/trained by a particular human.  She certainly has no horn, and there is no evidence that she has ever warged Drogon.  They may have some sort of mind-connection, based on his seeming to show up when she needs him most, but that is not the same as warging.

Regarding Tyrion's study of Valyrian ... Tyrion has met Hodor.  If he had discovered the word "Hodor" and that it had some ancient, magical meaning, one would think he would have mentioned it by now; in his own thoughts if to no one else.

My thought on the word "hodor" is that it is as close as Hodor could come to the word "honor," a concept held dear to the Starks and a word he would have heard used quite frequently and in a purely positive connotation.  
There are some more crackpottish theories that I subscribe to, but I have never been able to get on board with any of the ones that surmise some great, mysterious role for Hodor to play.  I think he pretty much is what we see ...a person of limited intellect but unfailing loyalty, who was essential to Bran's plot development in providing him some level of protection and mobility; and also to show us the contrast between who/what can and cannot be warged.

Edited by LadyoftheNorth72, 05 March 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[Monk Meth-]

i think its something that will never be known for sure.

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

I just don't know about the whole "'Hodor' is a magic word" theory...