73 replies to this topic

[idiotking]

Okay, more specifically, why would he lie to a dead man?

This is the one thing that keeps me from buying into the "Fake Aegon" theories.  When we learn from Varys that he saved the real Aegon and replaced him with an orphan before the sack of KL, he's telling it to a man he just plugged with a crossbow -- a man who's about to die.  Why would he lie?  If he was afraid of some crazy last-second James Bond-like reversal, wouldn't he just keep his mouth shut?  There's NO motive for him to tell Kevan his plans, and thus even LESS than no motive to then lie about them!

I understand the whole "there was no way of knowing Gregor would smash the baby against the wall" line of argument, but who's to say that was anything other than a fortuitous convenience for Varys?  He might well have had other plans for making sure the "fake" was believable, that were simply no longer necessary due to Gregor's efforts...

But yes, if someone could tell me why Varys, master of whisperers and biggest orphan merchant in KL, would concoct an elaborate lie about treasonous plans to um... cover up treasonous plans, to tell to a dead man... well, it'd go a long way to opening me up to the "fake Aegon" theory.

[Lykos]

Ah, Kevan old man I know you´re busy dying but the man you know as Aegon is really ... two hours explaining plots and schemes ... , but let me not tell too much, the walls have ears as I should know.  Oh he died an hour ago, ah well.

[Ran]

He never lies. He says Aegon is alive. Aegon is his name, or the only name he knows, and certainly it's the name he goes by... and he's alive.

Obviously, he probably knows Kevan's "Dead. He's dead" means "Aegon Targaryen, Rhaegar's son is dead"... but that doesn't have to be what Varys is responding to. Especially when, as a mummer and a man given to a rather flexible identity, he believes that he has essentially created Aegon Targaryen, and that there's really no difference. After all, Varys professes not to believe that blood is enough to give on the right to rule: it's who you are, and whether you're prepared and capable, that should matter first and foremost.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Varys little birds? Or maybe it's just that you don't slip in private if you wish to keep a lie in public, you'll never know who listens, and it is a very good habit.

[Apple Martini]

He doesn't actually lie. Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here.

But they're not talking about the same Aegon.

[A Free Shadow]

Because he can. I think it is a combination of "for the first time I can say this out loud and see the reaction" and "you never know who listens".

As you say, Varys had no obvious reason to talk to Kevan at all. But he did. So he had something to gain from it. A lie repeated many times becomes a truth. And that is what Varys wants.

He arrived at KL to set his plan in motion. He started doing things as well as saying things. When he said "Aegon is alive and coming here" between the very walls of the Red Keep, it was the start he gave.

Edited by A Free Shadow, 04 March 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Jem]

Varys doesn't say that he saved Aegon by swapping him with another baby. Aegon is the one who tells us (or tells Tyrion) that, and as Aegon was a baby at the time there is no way of knowing if that is true or not.

And as has already been mentioned, Varys doesn't tell Kevan that Aegon is alive, he only says that "he is here" (presumably 'here' being Westeros because he isn't literally 'there' in the tower with them). And there is no way of knowing if the Aegon they are talking about is the one and the same Aegon.

Once again GRRM has characters talking at cross-purposes and tricking us into thinking that something has been confirmed when it hasn't. That is just our brains for us. Human beings unconsciously fill in gaps by assuming information that isn't there. Think of it as one of the pitfalls of having a complicated brain working hard to keep up in an information-rich environment.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

Vary’s has created for himself a King to serve the realm, and his name is Aegon. You might say it’s just pedantry to say he doesn’t call him Rhaegar’s son, but I think the distinction is important. To Varys Aegon is a boy trained to be King, not born to be King and that’s more important. He has spent many years engineering this situation and now "he's here".

Edited by Humphrey Plantagenet, 04 March 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[Zar Lannister]

Another possibility is that others could be listening. So no need to clarify much other than Aegon being alive.

[The Unborn]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

He doesn't actually lie. Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here.

But they're not talking about the same Aegon.

I like the way you said that. Like it was totally official and not just a theory.

[Apple Martini]

The Unborn, on 04 March 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

I like the way you said that. Like it was totally official and not just a theory.

I try.

[Nymphetamine]

He doesn't lie.

[Aegon I]

There is a quote by littlefinger talking to Sansa where he says "keep the lie up, no matter what u continue the lie" or something to that effect.  

Also we know that the "little birds" were present so it dosen't make sense to reveal the whole plan to all his little birds.... we can assume that even though the little birds are loyal that dosen't mean one or more could let slip the blackfyre conspiracy... When dealing with a massive conspiracy like this it make sense to reveal the "tru" plans to as little people as possible. (ie Illyrio, Varys and the commander of the GC - I forgot his name -)

Finally I think the orginal poster also hit it on the head... there is no reason to say anything so I think the speech was put in there for the readers benefit not necessairly Kevans.... This series only features first person perspective so the author can only convey info. through other characters thoughts or actions.... or in this case mislead through a characters perspective which GRRM has done many times in the past.

IMHO the biggest tip off is the fact that we are consistently told he is the REAL Aegon.... but as we all know with this series nothing is as it seems.

P.S. - he also fits the "mummers dragon" spoken in the prophecy.

[sinphonus]

Aegon I, on 04 March 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Also we know that the "little birds" were present so it dosen't make sense to reveal the whole plan to all his little birds.... we can assume that even though the little birds are loyal that dosen't mean one or more could let slip the blackfyre conspiracy... When dealing with a massive conspiracy like this it make sense to reveal the "tru" plans to as little people as possible. (ie Illyrio, Varys and the commander of the GC - I forgot his name -)

The little birds are mute, Illyrio says something like that somewhere, that it's hard getting young mute boys that know their letters.


Even if Aegon isn't real it wouldn't really matter, he has an army and Targaryen looks, enough for many lords, we'll just have to wait and see what Arianne makes of him, and wouldn't Jon Connington recognize the son of his best friend and crush?

[Apple Martini]

sinphonus, on 04 March 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

wouldn't Jon Connington recognize the son of his best friend and crush?

I doubt it, seeing as Connington didn't meet "Aegon" until the kid was like 5 years old, and is in serious denial (read: he sees and believes what he wants to believe).

[Dark Rider]

I would get too caught up with anything said by the Spider. The man makes his living with lies either spinning them or revealing the lies of others. I'm with Ned I've given up trying to figure out who Varys's really serves.  It's enough to know he's running his own agenda and can't be trusted. Dany shouldn't trust him, Tyrion shouldn't trust him, and I don't trust a single thing he's said.

Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys are the two players with no POV chapters for a reason.  It's their game everyone else is playing it's just the Lannisters, Starks, and everyone else are so self-important convinced of their superiority by blood they can't see a lowly eunuch and lord just above a hedge knight are playing them like fools.

March into King's Landing and the first thing you do is put Varys's head on a spike and save a space for Petyr Baelish's head next to his.

Edited by Dark Rider, 04 March 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[thetitansbastard]

why wouldn't he?

[irishtemper]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

He doesn't actually lie. Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here.

But they're not talking about the same Aegon.

Loopholes within fricking loopholes.

What you just said doesn't make sense.  Kevan says Aegon is dead, and Varys says no he isn't which means they are talking about the same person...I mean Varys didn't say "mayhaps" after that did he?

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Apple Martini, on 04 March 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

He doesn't actually lie. Kevan says Aegon is dead and Varys says, no he isn't, he's here.

But they're not talking about the same Aegon.

Then Varys is knowingly lying to Kevan as Kevan thinks that Varys is talking about the same Aegon. That loophole doesn't make a lie, a non lie.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 04 March 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Jem, on 04 March 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Once again GRRM has characters talking at cross-purposes and tricking us into thinking that something has been confirmed when it hasn't. That is just our brains for us. Human beings unconsciously fill in gaps by assuming information that isn't there. Think of it as one of the pitfalls of having a complicated brain working hard to keep up in an information-rich environment.

Agreed.  Also if Varys is living the lie that Aegon is a pretender its best to always stay in character and never, ever say the truth.  Besides the whole purpose of Varys' speech is to further the plot for the reader, its not for Ser Kevan's enlightenment.

Edited by Howling4Reed, 25 May 2012 - 11:32 PM.