73 replies to this topic

[Dragonfish]

Scipio Africanus, on 28 May 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Sign language?

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that his "little birds" were illiterate and mute, and they were killed off on a regular basis.
But I could be wrong. Only read the whole series once.

I always find it hilarious when people claim Varys' little birds couldn't reveal the truth to anyone because they're mute and illiterate, even though the latest book provides an example of a mute and illiterate child revealing a piece of crucial information. And this is leaving aside the fact that the children are most likely literate. They were certainly literate when Varys was in Pentos, as their primary function then was to read secret documents and report their contents to Varys. ETA--oh yeah, and then there's their conversation from AGOT, which Lummel pointed out above.

Edited by Dragonfish, 28 May 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Scipio Africanus]

danm_999, on 28 May 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

We don't really know anything about Varys little birds, we only have theories. There's not much reason to suspect they're immune to questioning, so it might make sense to lie in front of them.

Yet Varys is the most mysterious person in KL and I highly doubt even Peter Baelish has ever caught one of Varys' little birds for interrigation. At least this is suggested in the series. LF and Varys traded secrets, so it is suggested.
So, either everyone thought Varys was harmless (yet their spymaster, which I would suppose everyone to become suspecious about) and never bothered with the little birds, or Varys made sure none were caught and made to spill their guts, either by hiding their existence or killing them on a regular basis.

Lummel, on 28 May 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

What! Only read it once Scipio Africanus! Get ye hence and reread!

Only recently came upon the series (not through the tv show, haven't seen any episodes) through chance. Definitely going to read through again in the near future, now with the knowledge of knowing what happens. See if I can pick up more clues this time round. So bear with me please.

[Lummel]

Scipio Africanus, on 28 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

...Only recently came upon the series (not through the tv show, haven't seen any episodes) through chance. Definitely going to read through again in the near future, now with the knowledge of knowing what happens. See if I can pick up more clues this time round. So bear with me please.

Only once, I'm just shocked!  Shocked and appalled!  It's lucky this is the internet and I can type because I'm just speechless now

Edited by Lummel, 28 May 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[danm_999]

Scipio Africanus, on 28 May 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Yet Varys is the most mysterious person in KL and I highly doubt even Peter Baelish has ever caught one of Varys' little birds for interrigation. At least this is suggested in the series. LF and Varys traded secrets, so it is suggested.
So, either everyone thought Varys was harmless (yet their spymaster, which I would suppose everyone to become suspecious about) and never bothered with the little birds, or Varys made sure none were caught and made to spill their guts, either by hiding their existence or killing them on a regular basis.

I'm inclined to believe they're killed on a regular basis, which implies they're too valuable to Varys to let anyone get their hands of them.

[jlk7e]

Dark Rider, on 04 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

Petyr Baelish and Lord Varys are the two players with no POV chapters for a reason.  It's their game everyone else is playing it's just the Lannisters, Starks, and everyone else are so self-important convinced of their superiority by blood they can't see a lowly eunuch and lord just above a hedge knight are playing them like fools.

There are numerous players with no POV chapters - we don't get POVs from any of the kings (Robb, Stannis, Renly, Joffrey, Tommen, Balon, Euron), nor from Tywin, the Blackfish, Wyman Manderly, the Boltons, Walder Frey, Doran Martell, any of the Tyrells, Jorah Mormont...

[bloodymime]

Scipio Africanus, on 28 May 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Sign language?

I thought it was mentioned somewhere that his "little birds" were illiterate and mute, and they were killed off on a regular basis.
But I could be wrong. Only read the whole series once.

“The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …” “No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …”

“… if they kept their tongues …”

“… the risk …”


I tend to think their losing their tongues while to stop them from talking if caught is also to make sure they stay quiet hidden in the tunnels. These are still very young children sitting for hours on end in a single place often doing absolutely nothing. Taking their tongue means no accidental laughter or talk or cries to give them away.

[Thendel]

Like a few other posters, I'm also in the camp that thinks that Varys has yet to be caught telling an outright falsehood. He suggests things and lets people fill out the rest, more often than not in a way that leads them to reach the factually wrong conclusions, and when they say what they think out loud, he does not correct them.

[Scipio Africanus]

danm_999, on 28 May 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

I'm inclined to believe they're killed on a regular basis, which implies they're too valuable to Varys to let anyone get their hands of them.

Yes I think so too.

You're right that we don't know a lot about Verys' little birds.

And Dragonfish is right too, even mutes can devulge secrets.

Yet I still don't think Varys was lying simply in case that a little bird was caught. They haven't been caught before, so why would one get caught now? Varys doesn't seem like a guy who leaves loose ends.

[Dragonfish]

Scipio Africanus, on 28 May 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Yet I still don't think Varys was lying simply in case that a little bird was caught. They haven't been caught before, so why would one get caught now? Varys doesn't seem like a guy who leaves loose ends.

Just because they've never been caught before doesn't mean they will never be caught. And besides, who's to say they simply wouldn't voluntarily go to Cersei or someone else to reveal such a crucial bit of info?

[The Promised Prince]

RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon, on 05 March 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

He also says he serves the realm, which he quite clearly doesn't so he's full of lies. I wouldn't believe anything he said even to himself in a room where no one could hear or see him.

Think about this: What if Varys really is serving the realm? What if his plans really are for the people? What if he knew how Robert's rebellion will turn out after many years and have been really planning to save the realm from another mad ruler? What if in the end his plan was to put someone just, kind hearted and intelligent in the throne, make the realm prosperous and make the people happy (of course the cost of this will be extremely high, like a war of five kings)? What if he is Azor Ahai Reborn!

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

The Promised Prince, on 27 July 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

Think about this: What if Varys really is serving the realm? What if his plans really are for the people? What if he knew how Robert's rebellion will turn out after many years and have been really planning to save the realm from another mad ruler? What if in the end his plan was to put someone just, kind hearted and intelligent in the throne, make the realm prosperous and make the people happy (of course the cost of this will be extremely high, like a war of five kings)? What if he is Azor Ahai Reborn!

Ah, because the fate of the majority of the peasants doesn't change no matter the ruler, be it mad, sane, good or bad. They tend their farms, pray for good harvests and healthy children. Lords piss on them, and abuse them, but the most benevalent king could not change this. Westeros seems to be set up like medieval france not england where Lords have imperium over their lands with the right to dispense justice themselves. There are no royal controlled sherrifs. So Varys can't help the little man no matter how hard he tried, and he makes their life much much worse with war of the 5 kings, especially as all the crops are being burnt just before winter. He doesn't care about the small folk & I doubt he cares about the nobles as he is frequently using them as pawns with a great many dying and noble houses destroyed.

Think about it, if his aim was to create a just, benevalent king who can rule best what is the easiest way to do this. Is there a way to avoid all this bloodshed. Could he not have taken more of an interest in the education of Joffery? Teach him better? Kill Joff earlier and replace with Tommen? What makes Aegon better than these two could have been? He was raised in a foreign land, without direct knowledge of the culture and politics, no administration experience that other Lords children of the realm have (see Tyrion's responsibility for sewage system).

I've come to believe he's one of the 3 below.

1) A blackfyre, bent on bringing them back to the throne
2) Working with The Great Other to weaken the realm of Men
3) Knows something we don't about the prophecy and is trying to fulfill it?

[chrisdaw]

He's revelling in his plan to place his self made king on the throne, it's the virtues of that king that Varys wants to tell Kevan about, that Aegon is everything him and his lot were/are not. He doesn't want to stop to explain how he's a fake but it isn't going to matter, it's not what his conversation is about, it's irrelevant.

[Ser Sourleaf]

I know this is an old thread but after finishing my re-read I had the same thought about Varys.  The voice thing sounded familiar so I went back to check and there was at least one other time that Varys' voice is noted, when speaking to Tyrion in CoK.  He asks Tyrion if he had ever heard about how he was "cut".  Then Varys is quiet for a moment, and when he begins to tell the story, Tyrion observes how his voice was somehow different.

Of course it proves nothing and might mean less than nothing.  But I remember when reading that for the first time I had the impression that the true Varys was speaking.  I believe that was what GRRM wanted us to glean from the description of  his voice.

Edited by Brooks5000, 22 September 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Chalais]

I lean towards the idea that Varys wasn't 'technically' lying since Aegon is the lads name and he has Targaryen blood... It's just from the bastard house of Blackfyre, who's founder was just as Targaryen as any of the other legits, he was just born out of wedlock.