142 replies to this topic

[Elaena Targaryen]

First I wasn’t even sure what to call this thread, because I initially was looking at posting my thoughts in the Heresy thread (so this may be outlandish and crackpot), but my ideas grew too big for that.  I have been contemplating several different things in the series and finally arrived at what seems to be some connections from these different thoughts and I wanted to see what all of you think. It would have been better if I could have searched certain things with a kindle but I don’t have one, so I hope this makes some sense.  The things I have been thinking about include, but are not restricted too; the Doom, Hardhome, the Faceless Men, Arya’s fate including Izembaro, and ended up including Jon and Bran.  All of this leads me too considering that the Moonsingers may be more important than we realize because they make the connections work. (So I will abbreviate of course, Hardhome=HH, Faceless Men=FM, Moonsingers=MS) I will address why I think the MS are important after I tackle how they could fit in the past.

I started with the Doom (around 400yrs ago), who was involved, what caused it, how can it be connected to HH (around 600yrsago), and how the FM are involved. If you consider the Doom was related to volcanic activity it is not impossible that a magical group may have set it off. It can appear to be similar to what happened at HH, if there is a volcano there, and if the Doom was indeed connected to volcanos. Also HH and Valyria both are said to be cursed places that are haunted by demons. We know the Kindly Man told Arya that the first FM brought the “gift” to the masters/dragonlords of Valyria but did not explain further. Another thing is the slaves of the Valyrian Freehold were said to have fled to Braavos (and Braavos was founded around 400yrs before the Doom) and it’s said the MS led the refugees there. At first I wondered if the wilding slaves taken from HH could be the first FM, but that doesn’t fit the timeline. Then I wondered if the wilding slaves could be the MS, which doesn’t fit either, but it still might fit, maybe. Now for the destruction of HH and the wilding slaves that were taken to fit I will mention several possibilities. The rest is assuming the MS are from Westeros, in particular the northern territories.

It is not such a stretch to consider pirate or slaving ships were driven to HH by storms because we see this happen in the current timeline. (That could be history repeating itself) It can even be that pirates went there before the doom of HH to get slaves or for trade. Any ships that claim slaves would almost assuredly sell them to the dragonlords. Or to really get crackpot, if you wonder why the Valyrian Empire never invaded Westeros, the doom of HH could have been their failed attempt. If you assume to be that far from Valyria they would need volcanos for the dragons, and then assume HH has volcanos, then HH would be a very good place to start a conquest. It’s not too crazy to think there is a volcano at HH and the only other one we know of is at Dragonstone where the Targaryens went to from exile. (Targaryens could have went into exile for their failed conquest of HH) I would assume the Targaryens picked Dragonstone because it has a volcano. Now if it’s possible they took these slaves from HH to Valyria then it can be possible the HH slaves might be the Moonsingers, if we play with timeline scenarios.

There could have been MS in Valyria before the first FM gave the “gift” to the slave, we just don’t know. What if the first MS came from the destruction of HH? Why would the FM credit them for leading the slaves to Braavos? Well the FM would want someone else to be the heroes so they could remain secretive, if the FM is the ones who saved the slaves and if they caused the Doom of Valyria. I could also see if the MS are a magical religious order, connected to the COTF somehow, they could have used their magical abilities to cause the doom of HH battling an enemy, like pirates or the Valyrians. Now the FM would find that information very valuable, and the Doom of Valyria happened after whatever happened at HH. So this assistance could be why the FM honor the MS. The MS have the biggest temple in Braavos and I think it was said to be the most popular. I know most of this is stretching things but we have to speculate on the past when we don’t have many facts. I would think though the first FM to give the first gift of death would predate the founding of Braavos, why kill him when you can offer him refuge? The FM order is respected and feared but you would think if they caused the Doom and it was known they would be more celebrated, but I would think they do not want attention like that.

The FM seems to celebrate all religions with the God of Many Faces. They have weirwood and ebony doors, with a moon face carved in it. Jaqen was concerned that Arya took three from the Red God when she saved them, and she had to give the Red God his due with three replacements. The KM told Arya (paraphrasing) “the MFG sends each of us a dark angel and when life is too much the dark angel takes you to the nightlands where stars burn ever bright.” All of these things can sound like the FM incorporate elements from other religions in theirs since they started that way. “He moved among the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing.” They could understand the benefit of enhancing this in training, like if Jaqen is originally from R”hllor we know the red priests have powers. (I am aware he may not be) If they went this route then they would want to enhance Arya from her source and Izembaro could be connected to the Moonsingers so I think Arya could be going to their temple.  (Jaqen could be fire and Arya could be ice, lol)

Why or how is Arya connected to Moonsingers? First if the MS are from HH then they are most likely connected to the COTF. The children have different factions, the wood dancers, the greenseers, warging, and they sing the song of the earth. The MS could be the ones who have the power to cause damage like HH and the breaking of the Arm of Dorne. The MS temple has a dome where the windows show the phases of the moon so this reminded me of Bran when he was in the children’s cave. Now who “sings to the moon”…wolves do. Jon has a dream in ADWD where the moon is talking to him and as Ghost he sees the other wolves, Shaggydog wounded from a unicorn, and he sees Nymeria lift her head and “sing to the moon.” When Arya is the Blind Girl she says her nights are filled with moonlight and the songs of her pack. When Arya hears the voice in the godswood at Harrenhal, she first asks the Old Gods what she should do, then a wolf howls (which gives Arya gooseprickles) then Arya hears the voice that reminds her she has wolf blood. If Jon is a MS the Iron Bank would approve and Moon Boy may have watched over Sansa when she was in King’s Landing, lol, just trying to make connections.  Arya could have the strongest connection and it could be very important and much needed later.

I know this is all crazy, outlandish, and extremely speculative, but I had fun connecting everything using the Moonsingers. Martin seems to use the moon quite a bit; moon’s blood, moon tea, Moon Boy, and I wish I had a kindle to check in whose chapters he uses it the most. Besides what I mentioned already I know it’s used in Varamyr’s pov and he is a warg, but it could be used with all of the characters. I did not want to reread all of the books just to check that when we could just discuss it. So is it at all possible?

[Solmyr]

The part about the connection between HH and the Doom is plausible. I haven't really paid much attention to the MS when they were mentioned in the book. If they had such powers tho, wouldn't they be talked about? The FM, secretive as they might be, are famous all over the world. It seems to me that any religious faction with some magical power holds sway over many. Yet we hear nothing about MS outside Braavos.

[Precioushobbits]

I agree that the Moon and Moonsingers and their temple being the largest in Braavos is important. I appreciate your post. As you state several times you are just throwing things out there trying to connect the dots (reasonably). I think the Moonsingers being from Westeros is a big strech based on what we know. I like the post because I do think more speculation about how the various religions line up in the ice and fire, bronze and iron, earth and water universe is key to understanding the overall plot lines. GRRM has created a extremely nuianced, intracate universe with reliable infomation tough to discern from the speculative.

[Jem]

I did have to look at the Wiki to remind myself who or what Moonsingers were. I didn't think that they were relevant, but of course they could be. Sorry, I am a bit confused by it all, are you saying that the Moonsingers are some sort of off-shoot of the Children? If so, wouldn't they look like them? And if so, wouldn't we have heard of their very strange appearance?

I like the connections between HH and Valyria and the FM and volcanic activity and all that, but I don't really see the MS as being a part of it.

As for GRRM's use of moon in things like moon blood and moon tea, he is just using the word as a substitute for month (and I believe that our word month comes from moon, too). Moon boy? Maybe he is a failed abortion (using moon tea)? Howling at the moon? Well that is just what wolves do (or at least they are known to do as part of popular culture). I don't really see the moon being such a big deal.

[Lykos]

@Jem
I like the idea of the moon, or maybe even a second moon, the one that cracked and afterwards dragons appear, influencing seismic activities as it influences the tide on earth.  If the Moonsingers could influence the moon it would make sense if they were one of the causes of the Doom.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Solmyr, on 04 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

The part about the connection between HH and the Doom is plausible. I haven't really paid much attention to the MS when they were mentioned in the book. If they had such powers tho, wouldn't they be talked about? The FM, secretive as they might be, are famous all over the world. It seems to me that any religious faction with some magical power holds sway over many. Yet we hear nothing about MS outside Braavos.

That is a good point that we have not heard about them but we have heard of them from another source. Mirri Maz Duur studied the lore of the Moonsingers and a Jhogo Nhai (moonsinger I think) taught her birthing spells. She may not be the best proof though because she has studied with everyone, lol.

Precioushobbits, on 04 March 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I agree that the Moon and Moonsingers and their temple being the largest in Braavos is important. I appreciate your post. As you state several times you are just throwing things out there trying to connect the dots (reasonably). I think the Moonsingers being from Westeros is a big strech based on what we know. I like the post because I do think more speculation about how the various religions line up in the ice and fire, bronze and iron, earth and water universe is key to understanding the overall plot lines. GRRM has created a extremely nuianced, intracate universe with reliable infomation tough to discern from the speculative.

Thank you, I appreciate your post too. I think it's a strech also but it's good to take a closer look.

Jem, on 04 March 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I did have to look at the Wiki to remind myself who or what Moonsingers were. I didn't think that they were relevant, but of course they could be. Sorry, I am a bit confused by it all, are you saying that the Moonsingers are some sort of off-shoot of the Children? If so, wouldn't they look like them? And if so, wouldn't we have heard of their very strange appearance?

I like the connections between HH and Valyria and the FM and volcanic activity and all that, but I don't really see the MS as being a part of it.

As for GRRM's use of moon in things like moon blood and moon tea, he is just using the word as a substitute for month (and I believe that our word month comes from moon, too). Moon boy? Maybe he is a failed abortion (using moon tea)? Howling at the moon? Well that is just what wolves do (or at least they are known to do as part of popular culture). I don't really see the moon being such a big deal.

I'm sorry I didn't explain myself well, it's kinda hard with something so out there, lol. I was not thinking they are "children" exactly, but Bran and Bloodraven are greenseers, there are several human wargs, Jojen has greensight, so maybe moonsingers could be something like that with the COTF skills but still human. I know most of this may be crap but it could lead us to other ideas. I know those are cycles of the moon, I added it because I was too lazy to check the books for any other moon conections and I was hopeing someone might remember some, and I would think they have to follow the cycles to mark time with the wonky seasons, it's crazy to think about it.

Lykos, on 04 March 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

@Jem
I like the idea of the moon, or maybe even a second moon, the one that cracked and afterwards dragons appear, influencing seismic activities as it influences the tide on earth.  If the Moonsingers could influence the moon it would make sense if they were one of the causes of the Doom.

This is kinda what I was thinking, the moon has some influences in the story like what you brought up and Nissa Nissa cracked the moon with her cry when AA tempered Lightbringer in her heart. Might be something there and there might not, it's fun to check.

[ManyFacedOne]

Elaena Targaryen, on 04 March 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Martin seems to use the moon quite a bit; moon’s blood, moon tea, Moon Boy, and I wish I had a kindle to check in whose chapters he uses it the most.

You know there's a Kindle app for PC and Mac (I think), right? Unless you meant you posted this on the go somewhere.

Anyway, not sure what to think of the theory; it's very convoluted to say the least. I suppose anything's possible, but without further evidence, it's hard to say.

Congrats, though, for thinking all this up and putting it all together.

[DragonSpawn]

The moon-connection i think is important... but I always assumed Sansa was the Moon-maid... only because during the Hands tourney she see's three moons turn red when she witnesses her first death.... which i thought may have been a foreshadowing of her father / mother and Robbs death... also the metaphorical implications are quite nice - during the dark of the night it is the moon that shines brightly (which i think is a sensible metaphor for Sansa coming into her own when the long night is in full swing ... helping and protecting people escaping from the others, maybe sheltering them at Winterfell but i think most likely the Eeryie) + she's the only Stark to do any singing so far...

I agree that Hardhome was probably the Valyrian Kings attempt at conquest of Westeros which failed because of the greenseers / skinchangers - i think this story is hinted at in 'The Ice Dragon' - but there is nothing to say for sure... However, It would make sense that the Valyrians would source additional slaves to work in the mines from the free-folk, but i'm guessing all they did was steal a wildling who had the same destructive influence and powers as the green-seers and skinchangers who brought on the destruction of HH... they became the first FM and this eventually led to the destruction of Valyria... Any connection with Moonsingers may have been a result of the wildlings history and knowledge from Westeros and the singers there but it would also appear that the moon relates to a protective nature e.g. protecting the slaves as Sansa has taken on a protective nature in Westeros... which would mean the Moon-singers are seperate to the FM who give the gift rather than trying to protect the innocent.. (The first FM doesn't have to be a wildling but the weirwood door to the House of Black and White wouldn't make sense other-wise... )

Based on the Ice Dragon - just before the Valyrians invade there is also a terrible Winter...  So i think the reason for the Others return is the broken truce between Torrhen Stark and Aegon the conqueror - broken by Mad Aerys who burned Rickard and executed Brandon Stark. I can't remember the details but it wouldn't surprise me if the pact was made in the sight of the gods old and new... that's why the Others and the Direwolves appeared before the Dragons me thinks...

[Elaena Targaryen]

Ah, somebody gets me! This post is almost exactly the thought process I had in the OP but I maybe was too confusing with the intricate details.

DragonSpawn, on 05 March 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

The moon-connection i think is important... but I always assumed Sansa was the Moon-maid... only because during the Hands tourney she see's three moons turn red when she witnesses her first death.... which i thought may have been a foreshadowing of her father / mother and Robbs death... also the metaphorical implications are quite nice - during the dark of the night it is the moon that shines brightly (which i think is a sensible metaphor for Sansa coming into her own when the long night is in full swing ... helping and protecting people escaping from the others, maybe sheltering them at Winterfell but i think most likely the Eeryie) + she's the only Stark to do any singing so far...

Symbolism is not something I'm good with so I was hopeing for others to point things like this out, and I knew it would be prominent with Sansa, so thank you!

Quote

I agree that Hardhome was probably the Valyrian Kings attempt at conquest of Westeros which failed because of the greenseers / skinchangers - i think this story is hinted at in 'The Ice Dragon' - but there is nothing to say for sure... However, It would make sense that the Valyrians would source additional slaves to work in the mines from the free-folk, but i'm guessing all they did was steal a wildling who had the same destructive influence and powers as the green-seers and skinchangers who brought on the destruction of HH... they became the first FM and this eventually led to the destruction of Valyria... Any connection with Moonsingers may have been a result of the wildlings history and knowledge from Westeros and the singers there but it would also appear that the moon relates to a protective nature e.g. protecting the slaves as Sansa has taken on a protective nature in Westeros... which would mean the Moon-singers are seperate to the FM who give the gift rather than trying to protect the innocent.. (The first FM doesn't have to be a wildling but the weirwood door to the House of Black and White wouldn't make sense other-wise... )

I know I made the Moonsingers important, and their are connections with symbolism (that I may not be reading quite right) but the important thing is that it's very likely that wilding slaves worked in the mines of Valyria. This should (or might) have some effect or connection with the Faceless Men and how they deal with Arya's connection to the Old Gods and warging possibly.

Quote

Based on the Ice Dragon - just before the Valyrians invade there is also a terrible Winter...  So i think the reason for the Others return is the broken truce between Torrhen Stark and Aegon the conqueror - broken by Mad Aerys who burned Rickard and executed Brandon Stark. I can't remember the details but it wouldn't surprise me if the pact was made in the sight of the gods old and new... that's why the Others and the Direwolves appeared before the Dragons me thinks...

Yes Torren Stark and the truce/pact he made with Aegon the Conqueror was on my mind as well, like what the truce/pact entailed. I do have more crackpot ideas but I didn't want to add extra outlandish elements. I didn't want everyone to get to hung up on the details of it has to be the way I said in the OP but to look at possibilites and connections like you have in your post.

[Ice Turtle]

I don't know if it counts as symbolism, but even the first time I read the word moonsingers I thought of wolves, I'm not even sure if there is any other animal which is described singing to the Moon,  and wolves are associated strongly with the Starks, wargs (most common type of skinchangers)  and North (see their war cry).

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

[font="""]I haven't find no mention, that Jaqen H’ghar was R'hllor follower, but on the contrary I've found this:[/font][font="""][/font]

“Swear it,” Arya said. “Swear it by the gods.”
“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the
mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”

This quote connects FM to all of the deities, but not to the Red God specifically.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Vic-tarion Rattlehead, on 06 March 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

[font="""]I haven't find no mention, that Jaqen H’ghar was R'hllor follower, but on the contrary I've found this:[/font][font="""][/font]

“Swear it,” Arya said. “Swear it by the gods.”
“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the
mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”

This quote connects FM to all of the deities, but not to the Red God specifically.

“A man sees. A man knows.”
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
He wants to help me, Arya realized with a rush of hope that made her dizzy. “Take me to Riverrun, it’s not far, if we stole some horses we could—”
He laid a finger on her lips. “Three lives you shall have of me. No more, no less. Three and we are done. So a girl must ponder.” He kissed her hair softly. “But not too long.”   


Now I know that Jaqen is most likely not a follower of R'hllor, he follows the MFG, but I do see it as the FM respect the other religions and maybe even incorporate (or did when they started) some elements, like using weirwood at their temple, or giving the Red God his due. Jaqen could have come from this religion (R'hllor) originally but I really don't think so, but we just don't know.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Elaena Targaryen, on 06 March 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

“A man sees. A man knows.”
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”
“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”
He wants to help me, Arya realized with a rush of hope that made her dizzy. “Take me to Riverrun, it’s not far, if we stole some horses we could—”
He laid a finger on her lips. “Three lives you shall have of me. No more, no less. Three and we are done. So a girl must ponder.” He kissed her hair softly. “But not too long.”   


Now I know that Jaqen is most likely not a follower of R'hllor, he follows the MFG, but I do see it as the FM respect the other religions and maybe even incorporate (or did when they started) some elements, like using weirwood at their temple, or giving the Red God his due. Jaqen could have come from this religion (R'hllor) originally but I really don't think so, but we just don't know.

CHAPTER THIRTY

ARYA
page 249

you right, I've missed that one...

... wait a minute, I've just got an "epiphany" - three of them were supposed to fry in that cage, Red God can be mere personification of fire for Jaqen! Anyhow - we're only speculating...

Edited by Vic-tarion Rattlehead, 06 March 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Vic-tarion Rattlehead, on 06 March 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

CHAPTER THIRTY

ARYA
page 249

you right, I've missed that one...

... wait a minute, I've just got an "epiphany" - three of them were supposed to fry in that cage, Red God can be mere personification of fire for Jaqen! Anyhow - we're only speculating...

Yes that is what I think also, when Jaqen did "pay his debt" he did not burn them and fire was not involved. Yes we are just speculating and I know I get a little far fetched sometimes, like in the OP. I've noticed when someone posts something very out of the box the disscusion usually turns more reasonable, but also thinking in a different way, and then we start to have epiphanies, that's my favorite part!

[Elaena Targaryen]

lazy turtle, on 05 March 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I don't know if it counts as symbolism, but even the first time I read the word moonsingers I thought of wolves, I'm not even sure if there is any other animal which is described singing to the Moon,  and wolves are associated strongly with the Starks, wargs (most common type of skinchangers)  and North (see their war cry).

I think it counts as symbolism, but I'm not so great with that. I think it's important when Jon is having his wolf dream. He is Ghost in the dream and I think it's meant that this is the way the wolf views things, like remember when Bran is in Summer and Bran tells Summer human words, but Summer had his thoughts too. So when Jon had his wolf dream, as Ghost, Ghost sees Nymeria lift her head and "sing" to the moon. This implys to me that the wolf views it as "singing to the moon" not just howling because that's what they do. I like that, and I hope I'm right in thinking that, maybe I should read it again. Or maybe one of you, that's good with symbolism, can share your thoughts.

Also you brought up the first time you read the word Moonsingers and I liked that you thought of the wolves. I don't really remember what I thought the first time. I do remember when I did my first reread and I realized that the Moonsingers were mentioned in AGOT I was suprised. I wondered if they were supposed to be more important than I first thought, but I figured Martin was just world building when he used them again in AFFC. Martin does this though, when I meet someone who is starting to read the series I warn them to pay attention. I say one guy hanging out in the corner, who seems unimportant might pop up later as a bigger deal. Like Sarella/Alleras or Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse, of course the Moonsingers may not be important.

[Lykos]

@Elaena Targaryen
I´ve come across so many speculations to who AA might be in other threads, that I finaly cracked and put my vague feelings on the matter into words.  Ithink it might fit best in your thread here.

I have a theory on Azor Ahai, but since it´s off topic and not fully thought out, I´ll give you just the brief outlines.
Azor Ahai is the sun. Nissa Nissa is the moon. Light Bringer is the red comet.

The mission of AA is to bring light to Asshai by the Shadow. Most of the southern hemisphere lies in eternal darkness, Assai is close to the equator, hence by the shadow.

Valyria and the dragons were created to change this. The moon came too close to the sun and forth came thousands of dragons. Nissa Nissa´s scream cracked (her) the face of the moon.

This first offensive failed because of the Doom. Probably triggered by the Children of the Forest, First Men and/or Maesters.

Targaryens and three dragons survive and make it to Westeros, but are finaly undone by the Maesters. Agents of Asshai, the red lot work for a last chance and succeed in hatching Dany´s dragons, by manupilation and the sacrifice of Mirri Maz Duur. Meanwhile Melisandre checks out and destabelizes the situation at the Wall.


I was thinking of the city of Braavos and how they could keep the Valyrians at bay.  The answer that came to my mind was, with help from the CotF - the Singers.  In memory of this cooperation the cult of the Moon Singers was created.

And I think you might be right, and the Doom of HH was a first stand against the Valyrians.  So when Bran thinks that men would hate and fight and the Children only sing sad songs, he is not quite right.  They´re fighting by singing.

Here are some reasons for my thinking that AA is the sun.  I was thinking of the greek mythology, where heroes and gods can be foun in the constellations of stars.  Then there was Tyrion talking to Illyrio about the Faith of the Seven in Andalous, the gods were a constellation of stars brought to real life on earth.  And there is the Dothraki belief that the moon is god, woman-wife of the sun.

[Lykos]

A small correction I have to make.  The seven used to walk Andalous in human form. The Father reached into the heavens and pulled down seven stars and set them on the brow of Hugor Hill.

[Jaime -im not so bad- L]

Damn i like this one, makes alot of sense. Good work.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Lykos, on 10 March 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I was thinking of the city of Braavos and how they could keep the Valyrians at bay.  The answer that came to my mind was, with help from the CotF - the Singers.  In memory of this cooperation the cult of the Moon Singers was created.

Lykos, I like your idea very much and I want to think about it some more because it does make a lot of sense. This part I quoted reminded me of something though. The part about the Moonsingers hiding Braavos from the dragonlords has always stood out to me but I wasn't sure why and now I am... Greywater Watch. I know it's supposedly on a moving island but it is the only other "hidden" place/city we hear of and the crannogmen were close to the COTF and might know their ways. Several armies have attempted to conquer GWW but could not find it and ravens do not get sent there either. It might be another connection to the Moonsingers.

[Lykos]

Greywater Watch has indeed a lot of  similarities to Braavos.  Do you think Braavos moved in earlier times and only later, when the threat has passed, became a city like Venice?