Howl at the Moon

[Ser Ash the Red]

The first reference to a moonsinger is in AGOT. Mirri Maz Duur sais she learned birthing songs from a Moonsinger of the Jogos Nhai. Thus making them more widely located than just Valaria an Braavos.

[Lykos]

I´m not shure the Moonsingers of Jogos Nhai are connected to the ones in Braavos, since the moon is connected to fertility and birth, as is moon-blood and moon-tea, the name could be coincidence. But the Moonsingers of Braavos could also be based on these midwife/healers of Jogos Nhai. That the Temple of the Moonsingers is the most important in Braavos sugests that they´re more than the Moonsingers of Jogos Nhai.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Ok at first I thought Jogos Nhai was a name of a person but the wiki says "Jogos Nhai are a people. They are renown for capturing zorses." A zorse is a striped black and white horse like the ones ridden by the Brave Companions. I don't think this means we can totaly rule out my theory yet even though it's been unlikely from the start. :) Everything I speculated on started like at least 600 years ago so some of the MS could have moved from Braavos. (It's more likely they are a people from Essos, I know) Or Jogos Nhai could be the name of their temple in Braavos. Mirri Maz Duur met this Moonsinger in Asshai so she could have come from anywhere, MMD said there arepeople from all over the place in Asshai. I do find it a little intriguing that I keep finding references to these people (Moonsingers)...in ACOK Daenerys "A pair of Jogos Nhai presented her with one of their striped zorses..." It's when people give Dany gifts to see the dragons. I wonder what's with their connection to zorses, could be warging, and I could be crazy! ;)

@ Lykos this is refering to our discussion about the secret cities. I checked the wiki on Braavos and it says the nearby mainland is mostly marshland, so I do wonder if that's a connection with Greywater Watch and it being a hidden place in a marshland. :shrug: I do tend to think that the Moonsingers hid the city and people of Braavos from the dragons in a different way but the marshland makes me wonder. (Why would Martin add that similarity?) Remeber in Arya's chapters she thinks the House of Black and White must go underground (and I need to reread that) so I think it's possible they hid from the dragons this way, hiding underground...that does remind me of the COTF in their underground caves. So either way, that or magical spells, something is going on and I hope we find out more in the next book, I'm so curious. :D

[Lummel]

I wonder if this moonsingers business actually points towards something really basic.

We have these pairs of opposites in the book best known in Meera and Jojen's oath, ice and fire, bronze and iron, earth and water. The obvious pair of opposites that aren't mentioned though are Sun and Moon.

I would agree with putting the moonsingers in the same grouping as those who sing the songs of the earth if only because the opposite to moon worshippers would be the followers of the Rh'llor the Lord of Light.

[Lykos]

I have a general question, is there any mentioning of days getting shorter in the books?

[butterbumps!]

I posited this concept at the end of the Heresey 7 thread, and I think it applies here: That the over-arching theme of ASOIF is not actually about Fire + Ice as their own ends, but rather about the need to recalibrate the natural order that's been thrown off by 2 human "sins": tampering with death and slavery. I think that fire and ice are the means that humans have used to to resurrect/ preserve life, as well as devices used for will-binding (slavery), and that it's not so much an issue of duality between fire and ice, but more an issue where balance must be restored by destroying human use of both altogether. (here's the original post where I explain this a bit more: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62578-heresy-7/page__st__460

Part of what led me to this notion is the religious aspect. I think it's interesting that the Seven are the only religion that doesn't attempt miraculous intervention, nor interfere with death or any other supernatural phenomena. The Seven strike me as the single human-centric religion of the lot (which, as someone pointed out earlier, stemmed from an anthropomorphic genesis of sorts), designed to reinforce the natural order of life, death and human agency. I know there's a lot of speculation that the Maesters may be in league with/ connected to the 7, but I'm more inclined to think that both institutions may just be on the same side of the human-centric (versus supernatural) coin. Followers of the Sevens' attitude toward the Stranger (i.e., death) is one of quiet respect and acceptance, which makes for an interesting comparison to the singular dominance of the Many Faced God. MFG followers are almost like the "enforcers" of death's natural order-- "3 lives were saved, 3 lives must be taken" as per Jacquen's words to Arya-- and, of course, FM have a direct connection to the issue of slavery as well.

I'd put the "magical" religions-- Rahloo (Fire), Old Gods (Ice) and Drowned Man into their own category. The Drowned Man seems like a less successful foray into the supernatural than the other two, but it is fundamentally focused on resurrection ("that which does not die..."). Both R'holler and the OG seem able to perform resurrection and "projections" (shadow babies, potentially white walkers, depending on how you view them), and extend life unnaturally (which I also include bodily occupation as evidenced by Varymyr). They are also harnessed in order to forcibly will-bind-- "fire and blood" and skin-changing being 2 examples of direct control, as well as the surveillance techniques of weirnet and fire watching.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I have found a few more things.

There was a King Walton Stark the Moonking.

When Mirri Maz Duur cut the stallion's neck she used an ancient "bronze" blade and bronze is for astronomy in the links in maesters chains. This is important because I have a crazy theory on MMD and all of this but I'm not ready to post yet.

Last the Moonsingers of the Jogos Nhai, one or the other, have been mentioned in every book atleast once, but so have a lot of things. "Spellsingers" are mentioned several times so they might be important.

I know all of this is far fetched but the "moon" has stood out to me in the story and it makes sense with the direwolves so there might be something here but maybe not as extreme as this thread.

[Bran Vras]

I just put in the Mance Rayder thread something about Val, Dalla and the Moonsingers. Briefly, I conjecture that Val and Dalla are Moonsingers. I am now eager to know as much as possible about the Moonsingers. I have noticed how much the moon comes up in GRRM's prose while researching on Val and Dalla (in connections with the wolf dreams, Bran's chapters, Asha's chapter).

[brashcandy]

@Elaena

I know you mentioned Moon boy as a possible protector for Sansa in KL in the OP and whilst I don't know if he actually fulfilled this role, there are two notable times in Sansa's chapters when she thinks about Moon boy making rude jests about the nobles. Now, this might just be the standard procedure for a court jester, or Moon Boy might me more intelligent than the normal fool, and could be working as a spy for someone or some organization.

[Bran Vras]

What is the provenance of the Jogos Nhai? They belong to the Eastern Market in Vaes Dothrak, which means that the Jogos Nhai did not come from Westeros or the Free Cities. I have the impression that their favourite animal, the zorse, is exotic even in Slaver's Bay. It's possible that they come from a place further away, like Sothyoros, or Asshai.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Elaena

I know you mentioned Moon boy as a possible protector for Sansa in KL in the OP and whilst I don't know if he actually fulfilled this role, there are two notable times in Sansa's chapters when she thinks about Moon boy making rude jests about the nobles. Now, this might just be the standard procedure for a court jester, or Moon Boy might me more intelligent than the normal fool, and could be working as a spy for someone or some organization.

Thank you I think there may be more to Moonboy too. I'm not sure of any connection he may have had with Sansa or not either. I found something else interesting in ASOS in Arya's chapters involving Lord Beric and his group, a Merrit O' Moontown. Now maybe these two are not protecters of the girls exactly but sometthing could be going here. This Merrit O' Moontown is connected to R'hllor and I have some more crazy thoughts here but I'll wait to post it (for anyone interested)

[brashcandy]

Thank you I think there may be more to Moonboy too. I'm not sure of any connection he may have had with Sansa or not either. I found something else interesting in ASOS in Arya's chapters involving Lord Beric and his group, a Merrit O' Moontown. Now maybe these two are not protecters of the girls exactly but sometthing could be going here. This Merrit O' Moontown is connected to R'hllor and I have some more crazy thoughts here but I'll wait to post it (for anyone interested)

I'm interested :) and for what it's worth Sansa is now at the Gates of the moon in the Vale.

[Elaena Targaryen]

What is the provenance of the Jogos Nhai? They belong to the Eastern Market in Vaes Dothrak, which means that the Jogos Nhai did not come from Westeros or the Free Cities. I have the impression that their favourite animal, the zorse, is exotic even in Slaver's Bay. It's possible that the comes a place further away, like Sothyoros, or Asshai.

What we know is Moonsingers is a religion and they found Braavos (was it before it was a city or is it where there from?) for the slaves fleeing Valyria to hide from the dragonlords. They have the largest temple in Braavos because they led the slaves there. The only people in the text to be called a Moonsinger is Jogos Nhai, form Mirri Maz Duur saying she learnt birthing songs from a MS of the JN. All we know from the wiki is; "Jogos Nhai are a people. They are renown for capturing zorses." Zorses are the black and white striped horses like the ones the Brave Companions had. Now is Jogos Nhai a place, the name of the temple in Braavos, are Moonsingers only Jogos Nhai or a mix of people, or have they scattered across Essos, and so on. It raises more questions for me. I will quote the text for JN because they have been in many different places and commented on with many different types of groups. The JN are not mentioned in AFFC but that is when the MS are talked about. I wonder if "spellsingers" are what the Moonsingers are, I would think so.

AGOT Dothraki market

Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells.

She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high

ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and

the striped black-and-white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark

solemn Asshai'i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids

from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their

cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with

tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for

Dany.

AGOT MMD talking about Asshai

"My mother was godswife before me, and taught me all the songs and spells most pleasing to the Great

Shepherd, and how to make the sacred smokes and ointments from leaf and root and berry. When I was

younger and more fair, I went in caravan to Asshai by the Shadow, to learn from their mages. Ships from

many lands come to Asshai, so I lingered long to study the healing ways of distant peoples. A moonsinger

of the Jogos Nhai gifted me with her birthing songs, a woman of your own riding people taught me the

magics of grass and corn and horse, and a maester from the Sunset Lands opened a body for me and

showed me all the secrets that hide beneath the skin."

ACOK Qarth

the rumor of living dragons had spread through the east, ever more seekers had come to learn if the tale was true- and Xaro Xhoan Daxos saw to it that the great and the humble alike offered some token to the Mother of Dragons.

The trickle he started soon swelled to a flood. Trader captains brought lace from Myr, chests of saffron from Yi Ti, amber and dragonglass out of Asshai. Merchants offered bags of coin, silversmiths rings and chains. Pipers piped for her, tumblers tumbled, and jugglers juggled, while dyers draped her in colors she had never known existed. A pair of Jogos Nhai presented her with one of their striped zorses, black and white and fierce. A widow brought the dried corpse of her husband, covered with a crust of silvered leaves; such remnants were believed to have great power, especially if the deceased had been a sorcerer, as this one had. And the Tourmaline Brotherhood pressed on her a crown wrought in the shape of a three-headed dragon; the coils were yellow gold, the wings silver, the heads carved from jade, ivory, and onyx.

ADWD Slaver's Bay fighting pits

“Bad fighting, good dying,” said Strong Belwas. “Strong Belwas hates it when they scream.” He

had finished all the honeyed locusts. He gave a belch and took a swig of wine.

Pale Qartheen, black Summer Islanders, copper-skinned Dothraki, Tyr oshi with blue beards,

Lamb Men, Jogos Nhai, sullen Braavosi, brindle-skinned half-men from the jungles of Sothoros

—from

the ends of the world they came to die in Daznak’s Pit. “This one shows much promise, my sweet,”

Hizdahr said of a Lysene youth with long blond hair that fluttered in the wind … but his foe grabbed a

handful of that hair, pulled the boy off-balance, and gutted him. In death he looked even younger than

he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”

[Elaena Targaryen]

I'm interested :) and for what it's worth Sansa is now at the Gates of the moon in the Vale.

Yes the Gates of the Moon is curious here too. House Royce of the GOTM were First Men and there sigil is black portcullis over a white cresent moon, like they protect it or something. Also there are the Moon Brothers from the Mountains of the Moon Vale clans. Something else is Sansa wore a moonstone necklace when she married which may not be a big deal because they wear moonstones in the Vale.

Two other things just to add to everything is Cat of the Cannals mentions, and is around, a Moon Pool in Braavos a lot. (it's probably connected to the MS) Also a cortesan called the Moonshadow, who wears white with silver only, heard Daeron, the one Arya kills for deserting the NW, singing (I think by the Moon Pool) and she gave him a kiss.

[Nymeria Star-Eyes]

From reading the passages above I get the sense that any kind of person can train to become a moonsinger and that the Moonsinger that taught MMD just happened to be from Jogos Nhai. The way that MMD specified the moonsinger was from Jogos Nhai seemed to imply that moonsingers aren't assumed to all be Jogos Nhai, and none of the other mentions of them are connected to moonsingers.

I'm not sure that spellsinger=moonsinger, though they could be related or similar, but even in that sentence the spellsingers and the manticores and elephants and zorses (oh my!) of the Jogos Nhai seem to be separate, unrelated things. Maybe "spellsinger" is just a general term for anyone that practices magic, like "witch".

It's possible that the moonsingers are a popular religion wherever the Jogos Nhai live, but I don't think that they're all moonsingers. Just like all volantenes aren't red preists and all braavosi aren't moonsingers or priests of the many-faced god.

I'd be interested to know if the Jogos Nhai have any former connection with slavery, though.

[Lykos]

The kindly man tells Arya that the braavos are a mongrel people, because the slaves came from everywhere. Maybe the Moonsingers were brought to Braavos by the Jogos Nhai and they developed to the main religion.

He also says, "The Faceless Men are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the unmasking of Uthero, before the founding of Braavos. They flowered amongst these northern fogs."

This means Braavos was founded and then Uthero was unmasked. I have no idea what that means. The only idea I can come up with is utero, a revealed womb connected to birth and fertility rites of the Moonsingers maybe. I wish Arya had asked about Uthero, she notices in the temple of the Many-Faced God, that sailors pray to the Moon Maid.

In another chapter the Moon Mother is mentioned.

In a Daenerys chapter it´s mentioned that not even the Stormsingers could stop the Doom of Valyria.

ETA: The Eyrie is an eagle´s or hawk falcon´s nest. The Womb is where human eggs are nested. There is a Crescent Hall at the Eyrie. Maybe the castle was a temple of the Moonsingers. There might be some similarities of the Vale to Braavos, if we can believe this map, they´re both enclosed by mountains.

[Bran Vras]

When Mirri Maz Duur cut the stallion's neck she used an ancient "bronze" blade and bronze is for astronomy in the links in maesters chains. This is important because I have a crazy theory on MMD and all of this but I'm not ready to post yet.

Just a remark: the moonsingers don't have a monopoly on astronomy in Braavos. There is a cult of "Starry Wisdom", whose acolytes scry the sky.

The association of House Arryn with the moon is unexplained in the book. Perhaps an ancient house of the first men associated with falcons merged with migrants worshippers of the moon coming from Essos. (Somehow like the story of Dorne.)

[Lykos]

<snip> white lady. <snip>

Reading Bran´s link gave me the Idea that the Moonmaid, who is worshipped by sailors, is based on Aphrodite.

[Lummel]

There was a middle eastern goddess of beauty who was also associated with the moon. I suppose since the moon grows and swells to become completely round it's easy to associate it with birth, of course in GRRM there is a legend that the moon, in a way, gave birth to dragons.

[Lykos]

The german wikipage on the moon says in many cultures three female characters are linked to the waxing moon - the maid, the full moon - the mother and the waning moon - the crone or witch. In greek mythology they are Selene, Artemis and Hekate.

In celtic mythology they are Blodeuwedd, Morrigan and Ceridwen.

ETA:

@Lykos: <snip>Google "GRRM google author interview" and you'll get it. He discusses it starting at 47 minutes. This

may work for you.<snip>

Thank you, Bastard of the White Knife, it was really interesting. Especially Martin´s pause and facial expression when he says a religion that promises immortality would be really popular.