Howl at the Moon

[brashcandy]

The german wikipage on the moon says in many cultures three female characters are linked to the waxing moon - the maid, the full moon - the mother and the waning moon - the crone or witch. In greek mythology they are Selene, Artemis and Hekate.

In celtic mythology they are Blodeuwedd, Morrigan and Ceridwen.

All very interesting. In ASOS, these are the three deities of the Seven that Tyrion notes Sansa prays to most often:

He had become accustomed to his wife's nightly devotions. She prayed at the royal sept as well, and often lit candles to Mother, Maid, and Crone.

Also, the first time Sansa's moonblood arrives is on the eve of the Blackwater battle, perhaps signalling her connection to that cycle of life and death, beginning and end? Cersei comments on it sardonically, telling her that it's apt that men will be bleeding outside, while she bleeds inside.

[Elaena Targaryen]

From reading the passages above I get the sense that any kind of person can train to become a moonsinger and that the Moonsinger that taught MMD just happened to be from Jogos Nhai. The way that MMD specified the moonsinger was from Jogos Nhai seemed to imply that moonsingers aren't assumed to all be Jogos Nhai, and none of the other mentions of them are connected to moonsingers.

I'm not sure that spellsinger=moonsinger, though they could be related or similar, but even in that sentence the spellsingers and the manticores and elephants and zorses (oh my!) of the Jogos Nhai seem to be separate, unrelated things. Maybe "spellsinger" is just a general term for anyone that practices magic, like "witch".

It's possible that the moonsingers are a popular religion wherever the Jogos Nhai live, but I don't think that they're all moonsingers. Just like all volantenes aren't red preists and all braavosi aren't moonsingers or priests of the many-faced god.

I'd be interested to know if the Jogos Nhai have any former connection with slavery, though.

I do agree with all of this. I think the Moonsingers are a mix of different people and it's hard to say if this might be a religion that started with the Jogos Nhai or not but I feel like it could have been an older religion. If these people were all slaves in the mines of Valyria together others may have changed their faith, people from all over I'd imagine. The real question is why did the refugees put so much faith in the Moonsingers to find someplace safe for them, and were the MS slaves from the mines also, which I think so. Braavos was founded, and hidden, for four hundred years before the Doom so I'm curious how so many escaped and how involved were the MS. Could the MS, with their birthing songs (and whatever else they had), have had a higher status with the dragonlords? Could they know more than then we think? Maybe I'm thinking to much about something unimportant but I want to know more about everything. Here is the quote from the wiki on Braavos.

Unlike the other Free Cities, Braavos was never part of the Valyrian Freehold, but was instead founded 500 years before Aegon's Landing by refugees fleeing Valyrian expansion. They were led by the Moonsingers, who found the lagoon in an effort to find a place that the Valyrian dragons could not find them.^[3] For centuries it was called the Secret City and remained relatively unknown to the rest of the world. It became publicly revealed after the Doom of Valyria, roughly 400 years after its founding. The city is sometimes called the Bastard Son of Valyria.^[4]

^{http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Braavos}

[Elaena Targaryen]

Just a remark: the moonsingers don't have a monopoly on astronomy in Braavos. There is a cult of "Starry Wisdom", whose acolytes scry the sky.

Yes I know but there are reasons why I connect the "bronze" (astrology) blade that MMD used to cut the neck of the horse with Moonsingers more specifically. Maybe I should investigate the Starry Wisdom cult too. :) First Moonsingers are prominent in the wiki on Braavos and I think we both agree that something important may happen with them because we both are taking a closer look. (and I really love your Val and Dalla are MS theory!) We can assume MS were connected to Valyria and I have questions about this. (see above) We know from the text that MMD learned birthing songs from a MS (moon worship and bronze astrology) The next I'm not sure if some are not paying attention, forgetting, or I'm seeing conspiracies. :P We know (right?) that MMD did whatever she did to Rhaego Dany's baby in the womb and she did this on purpose. (I have been really trying to make sense of all of this and I hope to explain it properly because it's great in my head)

So Dany is in the tent, MMD used the bronze blade covered in ancient glyphs, blood, sang blah, lit braizers, red powder, made Dany leave. Outside everyone is mad or shocked, MMD voice raises into a high ululating wail (the same descibed for spellsingers (birthing song?)),MMD dancing, Dany pushed down, fighting started, then Dany goes into labor. So are we supposed to be distracted from the fighting so we don't realize what might be happening here. I think MMD used this chance to make Dany go into labor and kill the baby maybe. We know later when MMD said "you knew the price" (paraphrasing) that she was insinuating she caused whatever happened to Rhaego and I don't think it was just that Jorah took Dany in the tent. It may have helped that he took her in the tent, but how to ensure this when MMD told her not too, and we know MMD was up to something. But I could be wrong I guess. I hope I explained this ok.

[Bran Vras]

I just thought about something. There are three important events in the history of Braavos, it seems. In reverse chronological order (AFfC):

Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding,

You know that I think Val and Dalla are moonsingers. When Val returned from her expedition beyond the Wall, she had a pin in the shape of a weirwood mask. Among the wildlings she led to the Wall, there is "warrior witch" called Morna Whitemask for the mask she wears and seems to never remove. I wondered about the connection between the mask and the pin. The unmasking of Uthero (a name which can be a masculine or feminine across the Narrow Sea) seems quite intriguing now.

I need to return to Mirri Maz Durr's song, especially since Val was in the tent went Dalla gave birth (Jon even told her : "You are the midwife") and Val did sing to Gilly's son (and Dalla's I presume). Note also that Sam sang to Gilly's son (a song of the Faith of the Seven).

[alienarea]

Not connected, just food for thought:

Is there a connection between MMD and Melisandre? Maybe Melisandre is MMD after she burned?

[Lykos]

MMD and Melisandre studied magic in Asshai. MMD tells Dany she served in the Temple of the Great Shepherd of the Lhazareen, the lamb people. The Lhazareen later agree to a trading pact with Dany / Meereen.

I think MMD serves R´hllor, and was sent to make Dany hatch the dragons, while Melisandre tried to raise stone dragons on Dragonstone. So I don´t think MMD is Melisandre, because she knows she succeeded in bringing the dragons back, if she "survived" the pyre.

ETA: The Andals landed at the Fingers and they first gained a foothold in the Vale.

[Bran Vras]

I have just reread the Mirri Maz Durr passages. I had not realized the power of the birthing songs, which probably were at work to hatch Dany's eggs.

If Val and Dalla are moon singers, they know some of this lore. By curiosity, I looked if Valla sang during the birth of Mance's son. But in the tumult Jon couldn't hear anything. I guess if Valla had sung then, GRRM would have let us know.

I wonder if the babies are susceptible to the power of the songs until they get a name, and Val is very respectful of the wildling tradition of withholding the naming. Another open question concerns the effect of Val's songs on Gilly's son.

[Jojen]

Yes I know but there are reasons why I connect the "bronze" (astrology) blade that MMD used to cut the neck of the horse with Moonsingers more specifically.

I was intrigued by this idea and wondered if there was a way to connect the Moonsingers with the Dothraki and the First Men by the weapons they used, since the arakhs of the horselords are crescent (moon?)-shaped blades and the blade that is used to sacrifice the captive in Bran's weirwood vision is similarly crescent-shaped ("a sickle"), but the blade that MMD uses is described as "leaf-shaped," which kinda blows that theory out of the water. Still, it may be possible that the Moonsingers are in some way related to the wood dancers of Westeros. If there are Children somewhere in Essos, perhaps they were the original teachers of the Moonsingers.

[Bran Vras]

I was intrigued by this idea and wondered if there was a way to connect the Moonsingers with the Dothraki and the First Men by the weapons they used, since the arakhs of the horselords are crescent (moon?)-shaped blades and the blade that is used to sacrifice the captive in Bran's weirwood vision is similarly crescent-shaped ("a sickle"), but the blade that MMD uses is described as "leaf-shaped," which kinda blows that theory out of the water. Still, it may be possible that the Moonsingers are in some way related to the wood dancers of Westeros. If there are Children somewhere in Essos, perhaps they were the original teachers of the Moonsingers.

The bronze blade Mirri Maz Durr used had "glyphs", that might be in fact be "runes". That made me think that among the gifts offered to Vogarro's whore in Volantis, there was a remarkable bronze dagger engraved with runes, possibly given by a previous traveller.

Here is another bit. Dalla mentions in ASoS the "Horned Lord", who can designate an ancient King-beyond-the-Wall, a constellation or the moon itself (the moon is sometimes referred to as the "horned moon"). It seems that the Horned Lord, as King-beyond-the-Wall crossed the Wall with his people. Perhaps he was led by moonsingers as well, since Dalla appears to revere him.

Here is one of the other few things that Dalla said: "sorcery is a blade without a hilt, there is no safe way to handle it", a saying that fits well with Marwyn's pronouncement (with different words though) on prophecy.

Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.

Marwyn has taught MMD, and, I presume, has learnt from her as well.

[Bran Vras]

Additional hypothesis for the unmasking of Uthero. As I noted in the Mance Rayder thread, there are apparently two traditions of mask wearing in GRRM's world: the Brazen Beast of Meereen and the Shadowbinders of Asshai. It's worth considering that Uthero was a shadowbinder. It remains to be seen what are the consequences of the unmasking of a Shadowbinder. And is Morna White Mask a shadowbinder?

Note: Uthero is a typical name from the Free Cities, not a name from Asshai or Slaver's Bay.

[Elaena Targaryen]

@Bran I love where you are going with the masks because I've always felt they are significant some how. Also I have wondered about glyphs and runes before, also it seems if some one can read and write in High Valyrian they can read glyghs too. (maybe a little of it or all of it, I couldn't tell if it was because they have not read it in a while or if it's something different)

Here is something interesting I found looking for other things...Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon and made a fist...it could be an angry gesture maybe?

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in

a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden

whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest

could trace fiery letters in the air as well.

Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was

Doom,

the other Darkness.

Then Benerro uses Valyrian glyphs and I remembered Lykos idea connecting the red priests and Valyrians. I have also found more things like this...

The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his

Iron

Victory

reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain’s cabin, laughter deep and

dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred.

Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That

was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

Moqorro singing in High Valyrian when he used fire magic to heal Victorian's hand, then...

"What feeds a dragon’s fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and

deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.

Also if you think about them using the candle's they are using fire to do all of this, gazing / watching the flames. It seems the Valyrians were better at it than the red preists.

So it seems like there is a connection with the dragonlords and R'hllor maybe

[Jojen]

I like that image of Benerro jabbing a finger at the moon and making a fist. Almost like he's angry with it. I don't think The Great Other has been compared to the moon yet, but it's usually white and cold looking (except when it's a Harvest or a Hunter's Moon), so it wouldn't be a stretch.

There's another moon connection that I noticed on a reread of ASOS, when Jon mentions several constellations that he's familiar with: The Ice Dragon, The Shadowcat, The Sword of Morning, and The Moonmaid. The comet the Wildlings call The Thief was bright when Jon "stole" Ygritte, and the Wildlings consider that a good omen. Doesn't Mel (or was it someone else) say that they sent the comet? Lots of symbolism there, especially if you also consider that a Harvest Moon or a Hunter's Moon appear near the Autumnal Equinox and often appear red or reddish-gold--a symbol of the Red God's victory over the Great Other? But not for long, because Winter is coming....

Taking this a bit further, if Ygritte was the Moonmaid, Jon may have been all the rest -- a potential Ice Dragon, when he wakes up. Shadowcats are black and white (like the House of Black and White), Jon is a Crow and a Snow (black and white)...and if he's the son of Ashara Dayne, he's the nephew of Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning. Prophecy?

[Lykos]

@Jojen

I like this image of Benerro, too. And I wanted to bring up the thief, also. This red comet seems to come quite regularly, if the wildlings have this saying. Or is it more likely that Ygritte was just teasing Jon. The Undying said to Dany, they sent the comet and there was a comet at Aegons conception about 17 years ago.

@Bran Vras

Concerning the horns, I had a strange train of thoughts. There´s a legend after the siege of Vienna by the Osman Empire a baker took the crescent moon as inspiration and made pastries called Kipferl, this inspired the french croissant and the german Hörnchen.

Hörnchen means little horn(s). This led to the image of a godess with horns an a bronze disc between them. The godess is Hathor and the disc represents the sun. This made me think of Alys Karstark and the Thenns and the new sigil, the bronze discs with the fires around it.

[Clueless Northman]

Additional hypothesis for the unmasking of Uthero.

Since the other 2 key events are the founding and the creation of their main feature and line of defense, the Titan, I've always assumed that the "Unmasking" meant Braavos revealing its existence to the rest of the world after centuries of secrecy, Uthero being the head magistrate in charge at the time, who decided that, with Valyria gone, it was safe to become an open player.

Though would they risk this before building the Titan? Or was the Titan first of all a vanity feature?

[Lykos]

@Clueless Northman

I think you´re right Uthero was probably the name of the Sealord, who revealed Braavos. But still it´s an interesting choice of GRRM to name him Uthero. And the whole thing shows again, that I should be more careful with the transmission of the information of the book.

First I misinterpreted the unmasking of Uthero as Uthero was unmasked and then I assumed that this happened before the founding of the city, because I thought the Titan must have been built first. I remembered that the Titan had a defensive purpose, and thought it was necessary to hide Braavos. That is not the case, it just guards the Arsenal and is used as a lookout, so that warships can be deployed in time in case of an attack by sea. The form is probably vanity and demostration of power, the Titan was built after Braavos was revealed and thrived. I had read, Titan was built, Uthero unmasked, Braavos founded but it´s, Braavos was founded, Uthero unmasked it, the Titan was built.

ETA: missing letters

[Bran Vras]

Since the other 2 key events are the founding and the creation of their main feature and line of defense, the Titan, I've always assumed that the "Unmasking" meant Braavos revealing its existence to the rest of the world after centuries of secrecy, Uthero being the head magistrate in charge at the time, who decided that, with Valyria gone, it was safe to become an open player.

Though would they risk this before building the Titan? Or was the Titan first of all a vanity feature?

Yes, there is something to be said for common sense. The unmasking of Uthero might refer to what you say. However in that phrase, I tend to understand that Uthero is the object of the unmasking not the agent of the unmasking. Since English is not my native language, I might be misled.

[Uncat]

Just a little moon poetry. Try reading the Bran chapter at the Nightfort, when he and his party meet Sam and cross the black gate. The whole chapter is a thing of black and white: Dark night, black gate and lots of moonlight and moon references crossed with lots of weirwood. Especially one passege stand out, if you read it with your mind set for moon magic.

Sam tells them about the Black Gate and Coldhands and they all fall silent.

"It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen, then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring in the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon" [which is shining through a whole in the ceiling]

Maybe it is just moon poetry to creat atmosphere. But white Weirwood, which is sacred to the Children and one of the hinges of their world, gets a very, very close connection to the moon. This sappling is not just rustling in the wind. It is litteraly streching for the moon in an audible movement. It seems to follow the moonlight like a sunflower would follow the sun.

[Uncat]

Oh, and in the same chapter, when they reach the black gate it is living weirwood and a soft glow comes from it like "milk and moonlight".

[Elaena Targaryen]

Just a little moon poetry. Try reading the Bran chapter at the Nightfort, when he and his party meet Sam and cross the black gate. The whole chapter is a thing of black and white: Dark night, black gate and lots of moonlight and moon references crossed with lots of weirwood. Especially one passege stand out, if you read it with your mind set for moon magic.

Sam tells them about the Black Gate and Coldhands and they all fall silent.

"It grew very quiet in the castle kitchen, then. Bran could hear the soft crackle of the flames, the wind stirring in the leaves in the night, the creak of the skinny weirwood reaching for the moon" [which is shining through a whole in the ceiling]

Maybe it is just moon poetry to creat atmosphere. But white Weirwood, which is sacred to the Children and one of the hinges of their world, gets a very, very close connection to the moon. This sappling is not just rustling in the wind. It is litteraly streching for the moon in an audible movement. It seems to follow the moonlight like a sunflower would follow the sun.

Brillant Uncat! Now I must put on my heretic hat and become a true crackpot; What if the weirwoods need the moon to grow, like you said, and not the sun like would be normal? The weirwoods are definitely special magical trees so who knows it could be, so now I can be even more of a crackpot heretic. The COTF are so connected to the weirwoods that you could think maybe they are dependant on the weirwoods, maybe even their very existence is intertwined with the wierwoods.

The First Men, after years of warfare with the children (maybe 2,000 years), had cut down and burned weirwoods, then a pact was agreed to with years of peace. What if the COTF needed to manipulate, through their magic, a Long Night to help grow back some of the weirwoods that were lost from the wars? It was eventually to much for the FM and the Last Hero sought the children to save men, which the COTF did help. The Wall could be just as connected to protecting weirwoods for the protection of the children than it might be to stopping the White Walkers.

Then the Andals arrive and it sounds very brutal for the children and their weirwoods. The FM and COTF tried to fight and save the weirwoods to no avail. Then the children withdrew to the forests beyond the Wall, maybe to be closer to their life support (for lack of a better phrase) from the weirwoods. Also maybe the chidren could not cause another LN for the weirwoods for any number of reasons; it is to dangerous with WW, a pact with the FM, or can't perform this huge magical act again so soon.

IIRC 1) Ser Aland said after the last dragon died the winters have been longer and colder and this could be a 'balance' of magic in some way. 2) We now the children are 'dwindling' 3) WW have been around for a while now. 4) There have been several different comments of 'sapling' weirwoods growing throughout Westeros. Could there be a connection with these things? I say why not and the children might need this for weirwoods to grow or the COTF may end up extinct.

I have much and more in my head but I tried to keep it simple until I decide if I want to develop this crazy crackpot any further.

[brashcandy]

@Elaena - have you all talked about the big weirwood at Whitetree yet? I remember Bran Vras mentioning in another thread (Roose's?) that there were 2 skulls found in the weirwood there, one with the jaw missing. Bran, please provide any corrections if necessary, my head is swimming with theories. :)