141 replies to this topic

[Ser Leftwich]

Here is another passage with red, white, black and Bran during the climb/fight to the cave in ADwD, "The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning."

It might relevant to this discussion.

[Dimadick]

Artemis, on 14 June 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Valkyrja, I think I was the exact opposite! I was enamored with Arya's chapters in Braavos and the HoB&W because of the whole aura of wariness and mystery that surrounds both the city and the FM. When I began to see the connections to Braavos and Bloodraven, I started re-reading Bran's chapters! I've been wanting to do a re-read of Sansa's as well. She's at the Eyrie which is chock-full of Moon imagery and symbolism so I'm sure there must be something.

Why not Brienne's? The crescent moon features in her house sigil and she dreams of "a quartered gown of blue and red, decorated with golden suns and silver crescent moons". A gown that she actually wore when she was 12-years-old.

[Artemis]

Dimadick, on 16 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

Why not Brienne's? The crescent moon features in her house sigil and she dreams of "a quartered gown of blue and red, decorated with golden suns and silver crescent moons". A gown that she actually wore when she was 12-years-old.

There's moon imagery throughout the entire series and almost in every POV. It's one of the more important symbols in the books. Noticing that Bran and Arya's storylines had a lot of similarities, it could be possible that the other Stark children find themselves in situations that parallel one another. If you find anything interesting in Brienne's chapters, please let us know! I'm making my way through the books again on my re-read but I haven't gotten to Brienne's POVs yet.

[Ciazio]

Sorry if I resume this old thread but while reading it I just recalled that (D&E e ADWD spoilers):

Spoiler

Maynard Plumm wears a moonstone and since there are many hints that Plumm is Bloodraven wearing a glamour, we can assume that the moonstone worked the part of the rubies in Mance glamour.

We know that Bloodraven works with the CoTF and the Old Gods.

So, take a look at this:

Ruby - red - fire - Rhaloo - Sun - Summer
Moonstone - white - ice - Old Gods - Moon - winter

Edited by Ciazio, 10 July 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Lykos]

Ciazio, never be sorry for bumping one of the best threads there is.

[Ciazio]

Lykos, on 10 July 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

Ciazio, never be sorry for bumping one of the best threads there is.

Thanks, I hope no one has yet said it, I just read the first 3 pages of the thread ;-)

Thoughts about this particular moonstone?

[Lykos]

Ciazio:
Well Bran Vras brings them in on the second post of the fourth page.  But just add your own thoughts.
I´m just now have been thinking about rubies and sapphires, the stones that Symeon Star-Eyes used to replace his eyes.  Do they mirror the red eyes of Melisandre and the blue star eyes of the Night´s King queen?

What might be interesting is the name hecatolite for moonstone which connects it to the afore mentioned moon godess (and crone) Hekate.

[Alarum]

I thought of this thread when re-reading the GoT chapter where Jeor gifts Longclaw to Jon, particularly the fashioning of garnets instead of rubies for the pommel wolf's red eyes. Useful.

[Lykos]

Alarum, there is an interesting story about the garnet.  I´m not really quite ready yet to bring it to the public, but since I consider this thread my "home turf" I´ll give you a preview.  I think Martin named house Mormont after the mormons.  I had this Idea because I had a hunch that the first male Mormont, who was awarded with Bear Island by the Wandering Wolf, was a copanion of the Wandering Wolf in the Second Sons and came from Norvos.  In Norvos they have a Bear dancing down the sinners steps and now look at the vatriant name for garnet, carbuncle, and it´s mention in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 22:12 where Isaiah uses carbuncle to convey the value of the Lord's blessing on His faithful servants.

[Alarum]

It was suggested by AlienArea in the last Heresy that the moonsinging religion perhaps predated worship of the old gods for the First Men. Has this ever been fleshed out at all? It would be somewhat meet for wildlings to flee north of the Wall for the sake of religious freedom.

[Alarum]

Lykos, on 10 July 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

I had this Idea because I had a hunch that the first male Mormont, who was awarded with Bear Island by the Wandering Wolf, was a copanion of the Wandering Wolf in the Second Sons and came from Norvos.  In Norvos they have a Bear dancing down the sinners steps and now look at the vatriant name for garnet, carbuncle, and it´s mention in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 22:12 where Isaiah uses carbuncle to convey the value of the Lord's blessing on His faithful servants.

That's very intriguing and an excellent connection. I could have used your input in this thread. I thought it was curious that there has been so little speculation concerning the Mormont seat in Essos.

[Lykos]

We only speculated that the three female aspects of the seven are connected to the Old Gods.  A bit like the Virgin Mary, that represents Artemis-Diana / Ceridwen in a way.

ETA:  Yes Alarum, I´ve seen the thread, but as I said I´m not finished collecting hints and also not sure what to make of the ones I have.  It might be interesting for you to read the Areoh Hotah chapters and whatch for similarities in the description of him and Jorah Mormont´s looks.

Edited by Lykos, 10 July 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[just an Other]

I think there it is mentioned somehwere that moonsingers originate form Jhogos Nai (or something like that).

[Ciazio]

Lykos, on 10 July 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Ciazio:
Well Bran Vras brings them in on the second post of the fourth page.  But just add your own thoughts.

As said, I stopped reading at the end of the third page.... sorry.

My own thoughts have deep roots in the Heresy threads, as I can see this as a new piece of the connection between the powers of Ice, the CoTF, the Others, Bloodraven and the Starks.

[Artemis]

Ciazio, on 10 July 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Sorry if I resume this old thread but while reading it I just recalled that (D&E e ADWD spoilers):

Spoiler

Maynard Plumm wears a moonstone and since there are many hints that Plumm is Bloodraven wearing a glamour, we can assume that the moonstone worked the part of the rubies in Mance glamour.

We know that Bloodraven works with the CoTF and the Old Gods.

So, take a look at this:

Ruby - red - fire - Rhaloo - Sun - Summer
Moonstone - white - ice - Old Gods - Moon - winter

YES! More color allegories to the North and Bloodraven! A few of us on page 6 of this thread actually comment on CotF-Bloodraven connections between some of the Stark children's POVs, and bring up a lot of indications of repetitve color combinations throughout the series. Your informative thoughts in your previous post have already been very refreshing so hopefully we'll see some more of you around this thread!

[ARYa_Nym]

I was looking at historical figures who had things in common with Arya and this courtesan who was named for the goddess Diana did. She was a sportswoman, huntress, horserider, educated in languages, good with finances (Arya was good at maths and runs a small business).

I thought this line from her wiki page was interesting:

Quote

When Louis de Brézé died in 1531 in Anet, Diane adopted the habit of wearing the colours of black and white, her personal trademark for the rest of her life. These were among the permitted colours of mourning, which as a widow she was required to wear, but they were also the symbolic colours of the bright and dark sides of the moon. They played on her name, Diane, which derived from Diana, the name of the beautiful Roman goddess of the moon.

She wore black and white which partially symbolized the bright and dark sides of the moon.

Quote

The Romans viewed Diana as a many-sided goddess associated with forests and hunting. Artists usually portrayed her as a virgin hunter, often with a bow and quiver, accompanied by maidens, hunting dogs, or deer.

Arya wanted to learn the bow and arrow. She did want a lion killing dog once and as for a deer she wanted to be like Wenda the Whitefawn once.

This matches Arya too:

Quote

Diana's nature was as varied as her many associations. As goddess of forests and hunting, she was considered to be pure and virginal. Yet she could also be arrogant and vengeful. As goddess of the moon, she had a changeable, unpredictable nature. As goddess of the dark world of the dead, she was unforgiving and bloodthirsty.

She was a vengeful, bloodthirsty goddess of the dead. She was unpredictable.

She's associated with three heads:

Quote

Because of her connections with creatures of the wild, with the hunt, and with the moon, Diana earned the title of "the triple goddess." Sculptors sometimes created statues of her with three heads: those of a horse, a dog, and a boar. Such statues were displayed at places where three roads met.

http://www.mythencyc...r-Dr/Diana.html

Quote

Diana made up a trinity with two other Roman deities who, at the same time, manifested aspects of her own character and attributes: Egeria the water nymph, who was her servant and assistant midwife; and Virbius, the woodland god.

It's also been theorized that Arya resembled both water and wood dancers.

Quote

Diana has been seen as the archetype of the free-spirited, independent female and warrior-maiden characters that have become ubiquitous in contemporary popular literature, film, and video games.

http://www.newworlde...ana_(mythology)

She's mainly shown with horses.

Quote

Another great character of Diana is that under which she is represented as the intelligence which presides over the planet of the moon; in which she is depicted in her car as directing that planet. Her figure under this character is frequently enough to be met with on gems and medals, which generally exhibit her with a lunar crown, or crescent on her forehead, and sometimes as drawn by stags, sometimes by does, but, more commonly than either, by horses.

http://www.roman-col...ddess-diana.htm

She is sometimes identified with Selene:

Quote

SELENE was the Titan goddess of the moon. She was depicted as a woman either riding side saddle on a horse or in a chariot drawn by a pair of winged steeds. Her lunar sphere or crescent was represented as either a crown set upon her head or as the fold of a raised, shining cloak. Sometimes she was said to drive a team of oxen and her lunar crescent was likened to the horns of a bull. Selene's great love was the shepherd prince Endymion.

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Selene.html

As well as Hecate:

Quote

HEKATE (or Hecate) was the goddess of magic, witchcraft, the night, moon, ghosts and necromancy. She was the only child of the Titanes Perses and Asteria from whom she received her power over heaven, earth, and sea.

http://www.theoi.com...ios/Hekate.html
Her familiars were a she dog and a polecat. In addition to those two the weasel were also her sacred animals.

Quote

Hekate was a torch-bearing goddess of the night, the leader of haunting ghosts and inspirer of the night-time baying of hounds. She may have been a goddess of the moon or rather of moonless starlit nights.

The difference here is that Arya has a pack of wolves.

Quote

"Propitiating the only-begotten Maiden (Koure mounogeneia) [Hekate] with a midnight offering ... Brimo [Hekate], nurse of youth (kourotrophos), Brimo, night-wanderer of the underworld (nyktipolis khthonie), Queen of the dead (anassa eneroi)." - Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 3.840

http://www.theoi.com...ateGoddess.html


There is an Egyption god of the moon called:

Quote

Khons/Khonsu

Nationality: Egyptian
Moon God
Amen's consort was Mut. Together they had a son, Khons or Khonsu the moon god. His name means "the wanderer." He may have been believed to be capable of flying.

http://ancienthistor...tp/MoonGods.htm

Arya wanted to fly and I think she is like the Wandering Wolf who went to Essos.


Moon mythology:

Quote

The Sun represents that side of you that others see, the Moon represents that side of you which you keep hidden. It also represents that side of you which reacts before you have had time to think. The Moon represents a separate, but equal side in your personality. The Moon sign modifies your Sun sign and your personality is created from the blending of these two signs.

[Lykos]

ARYa_Nym, I like it.

[Ludd]

Based on my theory that the Southron houses represent Germanic (Nordic deities) and the Northmen the old gods, Arya is a moon goddess but NOT the Roman Diana but rather the welsh Arianwen who was also a semi virginal moon godess with very similar characteristics.

There is the triple headed Celtic trio and the stark women sort of fit.  The Morrigan or banshee is now Cat although in Book 1 she was the mother now she is the crone/morrigan/hecate. Sansa is the maiden but I assume will becomer the mother and Arya staysa more like the Diana/Artemis.
I
n the legends Arianwen had two babies one of the sea and one of the sky (read Gilly's babe and Mances).   One is associated with dark, the sea, the moon the other with the sky and is a warrior god.

[ARYa_Nym]

Lykos, on 16 October 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

ARYa_Nym, I like it.

Thanks.

Ludd, on 17 October 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Based on my theory that the Southron houses represent Germanic (Nordic deities) and the Northmen the old gods, Arya is a moon goddess but NOT the Roman Diana but rather the welsh Arianwen who was also a semi virginal moon godess with very similar characteristics.

There is the triple headed Celtic trio and the stark women sort of fit.  The Morrigan or banshee is now Cat although in Book 1 she was the mother now she is the crone/morrigan/hecate. Sansa is the maiden but I assume will becomer the mother and Arya staysa more like the Diana/Artemis.
I
n the legends Arianwen had two babies one of the sea and one of the sky (read Gilly's babe and Mances).   One is associated with dark, the sea, the moon the other with the sky and is a warrior god.

I believe this line in ACoK to be foreshadowing for Arya. She wanted to see seamonsters (krakens) which are of the sea and dragons which are of the sky.

Quote

"If I had wings...I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and seamonsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to."

ETA: To add on more to black and white I remembered that there were other mythical figures who also had this parallel.

There's Hel. Nymeria was also called a bitch from the seventh hell and Arya spends more time with the dead than the living currently.

Nox. Arya thrives during the night. This is when she howls to the moon.

Quote

"For the night is dark and full of terrors," they prayed. Not for me. Her nights were bathed in moonlight and filled with songs of her pack., with the taste of red meat torn off the bone, with the warm familiar smells of her grey cousins. Only during the day was she alone and blind."

Quote

NYX (Nux), Nox or Night personified. Homer (Il. xiv. 259, &c.) calls her the subduer of gods and men, and relates that Zeus himself stood in awe of her... In later poets, with whom she is merely the personification of the darkness of night, she is sometimes described as a winged goddess...Her residence was in the darkness of Hades....On the chest of Cypselus she was represented carrying in her arms the gods of Sleep and Death, as two boys

http://www.theoi.com...ogenos/Nyx.html

Quote

"We see," says he, "a woman holding in her right a white child sleeping, and in her left a black child likewise asleep, with both its legs distorted; the inscription tells us what they are...the two children are Death and Sleep, and the woman is Night, the nurse of them both."

http://www.roman-col...goddess-nox.htm

When Arya sleeps at night she has her wolf dreams. She is an agent of death during the day as a FM.

Edited by ARYa_Nym, 17 October 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[Dimadick]

ARYa_Nym, on 16 October 2012 - 11:24 AM, said:

I was looking at historical figures who had things in common with Arya and this courtesan who was named for the goddess Diana did. She was a sportswoman, huntress, horserider, educated in languages, good with finances (Arya was good at maths and runs a small business).

You have already analyzed associations with Diana. But have you also considered one particular aspect of Artemis, the Greek version of this deity? She was associated with bringing sudden death, and illness. See: http://www.theoi.com...misGoddess.html

*"Zeus has made you [Artemis] a lion among women, and given you leave to kill any at your pleasure."
*"Artemis of the golden reigns (khrysenios) killed [Ladomeia] the daughter [of Bellerophontes] in anger."
*"Akhilleus (Achilles) released her [the mother of Andromakhe (Andromache)] again, accepting ransom beyond count, but Artemis of the showering arrows (iokheaira) struck her down in the halls of her father."
*"[Akhilleus to Agamemnon:] ‘I wish Artemis had killed her [Briseis] beside the ships with an arrow on that day when I destroyed Lyrnessos and took her.’"
*"[Odysseus to the ghost of his mother Antikleia (Anticlea):] ‘What doom of distressful death (ker) subdued you? Was it some long-continued sickness, or did the Artemis archeress (iokheaira) visit you with her gentle shafts and slay you?’"
*"I [Odysseus] saw . . . lovely Ariadne [in the underworld], that daughter of subtle Minos whom Theseus bore off from Krete towards the hill of sacred Athens; yet he had no joy of her, since, before that could be, she was slain by Artemis in the isle of Dia because of the witness of Dionysos."
*"There is an island calld Syros, above Ortygia . . . Famine never enters this land, nor again does any dread disease come upon poor mortal there. No; when these islanders grow old, Apollon of the silver bow visits them with his gentle shafts and brings death upon them, or Artemis visits them instead."
*"We sailed for six days, day and night; but when Zeus brought the seventh day also, Artemis with a shaft of hers struck the woman, and sent her - like a sea-swallow diving - to tumble below into the hold."
*"[Penelope laments her troubles:] ‘Would that now, at this very moment, Artemis the chaste (hagne) would grant me a death as gentle! Then I need no longer fret life away with an aching heart.’"
*"[Penelope] when she had her fill of weeping, the queen made especial prayer to Artemis: ‘Artemis, goddess queen (potna thea), daughter of Zeus, how glad should I be if here and now you would plant an arrow in my breast and take my life away all at once - or else if a whirlwind might snatch me up, carry me on through dusky pathways and cast me down at the issuing-place of backward-flowing Okeanos (Ocean) . . . In self-same fashion may the Olympians cause me to vanish from the world, or lese let Artemis slay me with her arrows, that so I may pass beneath cheerless earth with Odysseus himself in my heart's vision. May I never gladden the heart of a man less noble!’"
*"Dhaste (hagne) Artemis of the golden throne (khrysothronos) visited him [Orion] with her gentle shafts and slew him in Ortygia."
*"[Artemis] smote her [Koronis] down [with her arrows of plague]: and many a neighbour, too, suffered alike and was destroyed beside her; as when on the mountain from one small spark a raging fire leaps up, and lays in ruin all the widespread forest."
*"The people of Aigialea [Korinthos, Corinth] were smitten by a plague. The seers bade them propitiate Apollon and Artemis, they sent seven boys and seven maidens as suppliants to the river Sythas."
*"The wrath of Artemis began to destroy the inhabitants [of Patrai in Akhaia]; the earth yielded no harvest, and strange diseases occurred of an unusually fatal character. When they appealed to the oracle at Delphoi the Pythian priestess . . . [ordered] that every year a sacrifice should be made to the goddess of the fairest youth and the fairest maiden."
*"[Spartans] Astrabakos and Alopekos . . . when they found the image [of Artemis Orthia] straightway became insane. Secondly, the Spartan Limnatians, the Kynosourians, and the people of Mesoa and Pitane, while sacrificing to Artemis, fell to quarreling, which led also to bloodshed; many were killed at the altar and the rest died of disease. Whereat an oracle was delivered to them, that they should stain the altar with human blood."
*"[After the murder of Skephros, an Arkadian friend of Artemis and Apollon:] Tegeates and Maira sacrificed to Apollon and Artemis, but afterwards a severe famine fell on the land, and an oracle of Delphoi ordered a mourning for Skephros."
*"After a female bear appeared in it [the shrine of Artemis at Mounykhia in Attika] and was done away with by the Athenians a famine ensued, and the god prophesied the means of relieving the famine: someone had to sacrifice his daughter to the goddess [to compensate her for the death of her sacred bear]."
*"A wild she-bear [sacred to Artemis] used to come to the deme of Phlauidoi [Brauron] and spend time there . . . [until some men] speared the she-bear, and because of this a pestilential sickness fell upon the Athenians. When the Athenians consulted the oracle [the god] said that there would be a release from the evils if, as blood price for the she-bear that died, they compelled their virgins to play the bear."

Edited by Dimadick, 18 October 2012 - 02:10 PM.