What does Blackfish have against Jon Snow?

[chris999]

It's possible he thinks that Tywin bribed Jon with the Lord Commander position in exchange for ... who knows — staying at the Wall and not assisting Robb? I get the impression that the Blackfish also just has an inherent distrust of Jon in the same way that Catelyn did.

I agree. I just think that Blackfish thinks that Jon might one day interfere with the birthrights of the legitimate Stark children.

I dont think that there is anything to read into.

[corbon]

I think he only knows Jon through Catelyn and her all consuming hatred of him would have likely made the blackfish a bit biased. I don't recall any mention of him ever actually meeting jon, since he was in the vale, but I guess after then he just trusts catelyn's judgement on the boys

The Blackfish's words indicate something completely different from what you say.

Never trusted =/= all consuming hatred. There is no indication anywhere that Caelyn has anything more than a general distrust (and therefore mild dislike) of Jon and a wish for him to not be involved in her life ("it should have been you" is a moment of great stress involving her 'special' child, after a week or so without sleep or rest). And this statement certainly does not add anything further to a claim that she hates Jon.

And "it would seem she was right" indicates that he hadn't made judgement before the news he just hear, so not biased against Jon by Catelyn. And 'it seems' doesn't indicate that he is yet completely trusting her judgement, or even completely made up his mind yet after he latest info.

There seems to be a lot of misreading this little passage of the Blackfish's.

All he says is that Catelyn (not him) distrusted Jon, and given the news Jaime provides, that Jon has risen far and fast in the NW under Lannister dominance, it seems she was right. That just means 'it appears the evidence points this way', not 'this is what I think'.

It could still be that the Blackfish, who was one of Robb's closest counselors and confidantes, may yet have more of Robb's confidence in Jon (especially if that confidence was enough to name him heir), and is only now facing his first doubts about Jon. We don't know a lot from this little, and deliberately (I am sure) vague passage.

[Sevumar]

Catelyn never had a good reason to hate Jon. She could not put a face on the woman she thought "seduced" her husband into cheating with her so she takes it out on Jon. In these situations as is the same in any infidelity, the Baby is innocent of any crime.

It's hard to blame her for feeling betrayed and humiliated by Jon, especially in a society and in a location that reveres Ned Stark for his honor. It's bound to be uncomfortable to have to live with the "proof" of your husband's supposed infidelity for the entirety of your married life.

However, there's a difference between being angry at the situation and taking it out on Jon. She had absolutely no right to do that. Jon can't help being who/what he is, whatever that turns out to be, and Catelyn was the adult in the situation. She needed to behave herself better and show more maturity about it. I think she went too far in viewing Jon as a threat to the inheritance of her own children. Had she stopped and thought about it in a different light, she might have been able to see that, treated properly, Jon could be her children's best ally instead of an enemy or a complication.

[Lord Damian]

It's hard to blame her for feeling betrayed and humiliated by Jon, especially in a society and in a location that reveres Ned Stark for his honor. It's bound to be uncomfortable to have to live with the "proof" of your husband's supposed infidelity for the entirety of your married life.

However, there's a difference between being angry at the situation and taking it out on Jon. She had absolutely no right to do that. Jon can't help being who/what he is, whatever that turns out to be, and Catelyn was the adult in the situation. She needed to behave herself better and show more maturity about it. I think she went too far in viewing Jon as a threat to the inheritance of her own children. Had she stopped and thought about it in a different light, she might have been able to see that, treated properly, Jon could be her children's best ally instead of an enemy or a complication.

John was far a more loving sibling to her kids then her "precious" Sansa. Sansa was clearly her favorite, then Robb. Jon was loyal to all of them and there is affection from all of them to him except from Sansa.

[Ice Turtle]

John was far a more loving sibling to her kids then her "precious" Sansa. Sansa was clearly her favorite, then Robb. Jon was loyal to all of them and there is affection from all of them to him except from Sansa.

Bran was her favorite then goes Sansa, Robb, Rickon....a lot of space and misunderstanding...Arya.

[jarl the climber]

dp

[jarl the climber]

I've just spent a few minutes rereading Jamie and Bryndens conversation, Brynden spends most of it mocking Jamie and his families honor, clearly he is trying to provoke him. The most interesting part is that when Jamie mentions Jon he narrows his eyes, I don't what this means non verbal signs are ambiguous.

[Independent George]

I hope that this is not a factor in the Blackfish's attitude toward Jon. If he believed in Robb's cause and followed him willingly, shouldn't he also trust Robb's judgment in selecting an heir?

The part about Theon indicates that while he respected Robb, he was far too trusting of Theon and Jon.

Catelyn never had a good reason to hate Jon. She could not put a face on the woman she thought "seduced" her husband into cheating with her so she takes it out on Jon. In these situations as is the same in any infidelity, the Baby is innocent of any crime.

I have to admit - as much as I dislike Catelyn, she does have some cause to resent Jon. When Jon decides to go to the wall, one of her internal monologues is with regard to the fact that taking the black means he can never have heirs of his own and be a threat to her children's claims. While his being illegitimate makes that a remote possibility, it's not without precedent - particularly because she believes his mother is not some random camp follower, but Ashara Dayne. She may or may not have also heard rumors of Ramsay Snow poisoning Domeric Bolton. Regardless of what we've come to know about Jon, from her perspective, her worries are not unfounded. Robb naming him heir is both a reminder of Ned's infidelity and her worst fears come to life.

[kephv]

Plus, she was worried about any future generations of Jon's potential offspring that might cause a threat to House Stark. While Jon himself may be loyal, there's no telling what they would do (she brings up a good point to Robb when she mentions the Blackfyres).

[ServantOnIce]

I may be in the minority on this forum, but I think Blackfish, The Reeds, the Sand Snakes are probably the most overrated and over blown characters in the entire series. Catelyn hated Jon Snow because he was a constant reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness . . that Ned had a side piece of action while he was at war, and that Ned would not send him away to his mother or somewhere else to be fostered that he kept him around her "true born heir" children. Blackfish probably just having some family pride their . . standing up for Catelyn.

JMO

[Howling Mad]

It's likely he's carrying over Cat's grudge against Jon or playing coy with Jamie. No one knows exactly what's in the will, what we do know is that Cat and Robb discussed naming Jon heir. Whether or not Robb did name Jon his heir is yet to be determined.

[The Duke]

Good conversation. A lot of good arguments on both sides.

I'm of a mind that Blackfish is misleading Jaime on his opinion of Jon, and that after he escaped from Riverrun he is in fact heading for the wall. I have to imagine that a guy as prodigious as the Blackfish, he would have found out about Robb naming Jon his heir. Robb may have even discussed it with him previously. I think he is heading towards the wall because odds are no one is heading that way to tell Jon that he even is the heir. Also, no one expects him to do it. If you're trying to evade your enemies, doing the unexpected is the best course of action.

Him contacting the Brotherhood without Banners is the popular theory, but other than proximity, there isn't too much of anything to point to that definitively. He definitely won't go to the Vale with Littlefinger there.

[Faint]

The Blackfish is simply jealous of Jon's plot armor.

[Errant Bard]

Brynden doesn't know Jon. What he sees with Jaime's remark is a 17 year old given a leadership position over every other older, more experienced, so more legitimate noble recruit in the Watch. He's hearing that a recruit fresh out of officer's school has been made general. Anyone would suspect foul play. Heck, even as a reader, I know there was foul play involved and would have needed more foul play to be wholly believable.

That's exactly what Catelyn was fearing from him, in relation to her children: ambition and superseding others through dishonourable means. No wonder Jaime telling him earnestly of Jon would be heard as a mockery or a trap, basically "the Wall is ours too, we bribed the bastard"

Even if he knew of Robb's will... Think about it: did Robert's will for Jaime to protect Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella made him consider the children better? No, it made him change the will. Did Robb naming Theon his envoy make Cat less suspicious about him? The will and what Brynden thinks of its (possible) recipient are two different things.

I have to imagine that a guy as prodigious as the Blackfish, he would have found out about Robb naming Jon his heir.

What do you mean, prodigious? It's not because you're a good soldier that you can read something on a paper held by folks hundred of kilometres North of you. Especially if you are on the run.

[Ihab]

Apart from all the reasons mentioned here, I think Catelyn also despised Jon because of all the children, he had the most "Stark" features.

Never liked Catelyn. Lady Stoneheart is worse. Hope she dies early at the hands of either Brienne or Jamie next book.

[Ravenhair]

I'm re-reading AFFC right now, and noticed this exchange between Jaime and Blackfish:

What, exactly, did Jon do at this point that makes Blackfish think him so untrustworthy? The only thing I can think of is granting sanctuary to Stannis; presumably, Riverrun received a raven with a copy of Jon's "paper shield". I still don't see how that puts him in the same league as Theon, though.

It's a small point, but it sticks in my craw because (1) I really respect Blackfish, and (2) I hate the idea of someone like him holding Catelyn's grudge against Jon without good reason. I know it's silly, but there you

have it.

So glad you raised the topic. This has always made me curious as well. Enjoy reading everyone's thoughts about it.

[Silmarien]

How would the Blackfish have seen Robb's Will? As someone said, he was holding Riverrun, not present at the signing.

Also, why are we assuming Blackfish wasn't testing Jaime to get a reaction about Jon, not actually expressing his true feelings about the boy?

[corbon]

Also, why are we assuming Blackfish wasn't testing Jaime to get a reaction about Jon, not actually expressing his true feelings about the boy?

A generally low level of reading comprehension amongst readers? Prejudice amongst readers on the Jon/Catelyn relationship? I really don't know why.

Read it. It doesn't say he thinks Jon shouldn't be trusted, it says Catelyn thought that, and now, with this new and clearly suuspicious news (see EBs post #34), he says "it seems" Catelyn was right. That still isn't necessarily his own final judgement, just an indication that the latest evidence (17 yr old Jon being named LCotNW under Lannister rule) supports Catelyn's mistrust.

[Summerqueen]

Distancing Lannisters from the idea that Jon could be used in a constructive way by either side to rally Northern support is my guesstimation. He may very well plan to go fetch him into the conflict and simply want to mislead Jaime.

[salt]

He is a sign of Ned being unfaithful to his niece, and Ned raising him as a son could be seen as a mild insult to House Tully. Plus, any information he would have received about Jon would have come through Cat's skewed opinions.