203 replies to this topic

[Alia of the knife]

Despot, on 29 April 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'v just recently re-read the first book, GoT. And there was one interesting part, with Jon Snow and Tyrion, during their trip to the Wall.

Tyrion said something to Jon, I can't exactly recall what, but anyhow that put Jon on anger. So, Ghost attacked Tyrion and knocked him on the
ground.
Tyrion asked Jon to hold his Direwolf , and to help him to get back on his feet.
But, Jon said : " Only if you ask me nicely".
So, he behaved as a arrogant little s...t as well. (As the YG  did, after a Cyvasse game).

Good call, but as I said, it makes sense that Jon would act that way, because of who his Mother was, (if Lyanna).- beautiful, willful and hot tempered.

Though Elia comes from a voltile House as well, her particular temperament like Dorans, is depicted as fairly level.
And between genteel Rhaegar and sweet witted Elia, Aegons behavior doesn't jive.

Either that or Jon has a twin Brother, and Aegon was born first, and that first time, twin birth in the middle of nowhere is what really killed an otherwise physically strong girl, (not that childbirth couldn't fell the strongest of women, while some weak ones, -Elia, survived), but those similar reactions of Jon and Aegon are noted.

The twin thing is just a complicated story line.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 29 April 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Alia of the knife]

ARYa_Nym, on 29 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The reason why I found Aegon's cyvasse fit to be such a turn-off is that I think that 18-19 is too old to still be throwing those type of tantrums.

Me too.

In this time period, 18-19, is not like our modern day late teens.

At this point, Aegon would be a man, so his behavior either seems immature, or just undiciplined if he's vulnerable to emotional manipulation.
He would know, or understand what his history was by now, so he should be aware that some enemy might try to get under his skin this way, and not fall prey to it.

[Alia of the knife]

James Arryn, on 29 April 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Lol, I've read it. Loved it. Liked Children. Messiah lost me, and this was pretty much the only sci-fi lit series I've read outside of C.S. Lewis (never read the Witch/Wardrobe, but rather Out of the Silent Planet, etc.)

I was this close (*imagine fingersheld very close together indeed*) to asking if it was a Freman, due to sand/blue, but decided against it. Can't even remember what Pauk/M'd's love interest's name was, or is that his sister/mother?

Messiah lost me as well, (this is where I think that Herbert discovered the acid trip).
And yes, the eyes are Fremen blue from the spice melange.

Chani was Pauls love interest, and if you notice the very similar story lines of Paul Muadib and Jon- both are born of concubines,(and concubines do have a legal status rather than just a Mistress), instead of their wives.
Elia to Rhaegar is like Princess Irulan that Paul marrys for political reasons, but Chani like Lyanna, is the "true" wife.

Edited by Alia of the knife, 29 April 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[TheMysteriousOne]

In my opinion, it would be proper if Aegon, being a Blackfyre and Dany, being a Targaryen wed to end this Blackfyre vs. Targaryen nonsense. Technically, they are one and the same. Daemon Blackfyre was the son of Aemon the Dragonknight and Daena Targaryen. It would be better if Blackfyre and Targaryen rejoined.

[Dragonfish]

TheMysteriousOne, on 24 May 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Daemon Blackfyre was the son of Aemon the Dragonknight and Daena Targaryen.

Daemon was the son of Aegon IV. You're thinking of Daeron, Aegon's trueborn son, who was rumored to be Aemon's son.

[Despot]

I'v just re-read "A fest for a crows" and a half of a "Dragons" - so, I'v been read the "Quiet isle scene" again. The scene where a dragon sign
comes from a river covered with rust. Many people think that that is foreshadowing that YG is a Blackfyre, because the dragon sign was made
from iron, and it was black (black dragons - Blackfyres) , but now, covered in rust, it is red (red dragons - Targaryans) = black dragon which
looks like red dragon.

So, I do think that a Blackfyre theory is correct.

But, there are another thing. The sign had three heads, but the river throw only one of them on the shore, covered with rust. I think that is
a hint that YG is a dragon rider, although not a real Aegon.

Edited by Despot, 28 May 2012 - 04:04 AM.

[Rheagar Prime]

hey guys i'm new and i must say i started reading the series last year and finished ADWD 3 weeks ago and have re read it. I must say i never doubted aegon being rheagar's son until i came to this board man i like you type of reader who read closely like myself. Still maybe i ignored it since i like rheagar so much and just like the fact atleast one of his children survived (i don't inclded jon until its for sure). Now i do have my doubts but i feel heis rheagar's son, i do feel he will get blackfyre (sword) and that will make the theories even more compelling him being a blackfyre, but the only way i see our thoughts coming true is a varys pov and yes he must get one guy is too major not to have one, or if one of dany's dragon's obey him cause i so see something like that with them, since she already has the biggest on her side.
I do get why people doubt it since he does seem not to have rheagar's personality, but he is still young and he don't know him yet i guarantee that the battle he will have in westeros will change him and him being leader also will, look at robb and jon snow i see a good character development coming in te next books with him.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

Of course Aegon is "the real deal." It's ridiculous the suspicions directed towards the validity of his Targaryen identity. I shall try to outline them now.

1. Firstly, there are the obvious physical and definitively Targaryen traits of violet eyes and white hair, in addition to his generally being exceptionally handsome and shrewdly intelligent, which nearly every Targaryen has demonstrated (perhaps, with the exception of Viserys).

2. There is the fact that the exiled Jon Connington, one of Prince Rhaegar's few close friends, is Aegon's protector and foster father, and has been since Aegon was a baby. If Aegon was a fake, why would a man so fiercely loyal to Rhaegar and the Targaryen dynasty endorse such an underhanded ruse and the tarnisihing of the family name with a pretender? If Aegon was a fake, Jon Connington would a) know and would never agree to support such a lie.

3. Aegon is precisely the right age that he ought to be. How many young men of that specific age with white hair and violet eyes would one encounter on a day-to-day basis?

4. George R.R Martin has made clear throughout the books that there will be "three heads of the Dragon," three Targaryens remaining. People assumed Viserys, Daenerys and Jon Snow (perhaps Maester Aemon should Jon have been revealed not, in actuality, to be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, as is widely considered) would be the heads of said Dragon, the champions of the near extinct family. Fortunately, Viserys (that aggressively stupid gimp of a man) had a pot of molten gold dumped on him by his brother-in-law in a friendly family dispute gone wrong ("Khal Drogo do bad?"), so there was only Daenerys and, potentially, Jon Snow. Jon, Daenerys and Aegon make the three Heads of the Dragon as the series nears its finish- everything is inexorably coming into place in that respect.

5. People tend to say that GRRM would never have revealed such an important character as Aegon so late in the series if he wasn't destined to be ultimately discovered as a fraud. They also state that as he's conveniently not a POV character, so we can't know the inner workings of his mind and judge his authenticity from that. HELLO PEOPLE. The boy's character was unveiled late in the series as a sort of defibrilating, kick-to-the-nuts, outrageously unexpected and awesome surprise. SURPRISE! Gotcha, you know you jumped.  
Anyway, as I was saying, Young Griff was meant as a surprise. We already had Daenerys fulfilling the role of the exiled last hope for the Targaryen dynasty. Both her character's importance, and the unexpected gravity of the significance of Aegon's character, would have been drastically diminished had they both been POV characters from the start. Admittedly, he is not a POV character, but neither was Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon etc. GRRM uses other characters, such as Catelyn and Davos Seaworth as a medium through which we can observe the bigger, more interesting characters. GRRM uses Tyrion and Jon Connington as POV characters to observe Aegon, just as he used Catelyn and Davos to observe Stannis and Robb. It's a literary technique which GRRM has adopted to avoid the characters getting dull and create intrigue.

6. People say "oh Aegon can't be a real Targaryen, cos Daenerys was alerted by Quaithe to the existence of "the mummer's dragon", and so Aegon's a mummer and it's all a big mummery hoax." THEY'RE MUGS. THE OTHERS TAKE THEM. WORSE THAN FREYS AND BOLTONS. DEATH TO THE BOLTONS! DEATH TO THE FREYS! THE KING IN THE NORTH! THE KING IN THE NOR- sorry, got carried away there for a second. Anyway, if it had been "the mummer dragon," such aspersions would have been accurate. As it stands, he is "the mummer's dragon." IT'S POSSESSIVE YOU PHILLISTINES. Varys swapped Aegon with a peasant boy when they were babies, knowing that Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Loch (two really friendly and sensitive guys. Ser Gregor actually enjoys knitting in his free time.) were approaching the Royal Nursery to murder the Targaryen Royal Heirs. Varys then gave the boy to Jon Connington to protect, and has been spending the rest of his life secretly working and plotting to undermine the realm's strength, to spread anarchy and sew discontent and mistrust throughout Westeros, all to facilitate the Rightful Prince Aegon's triumphant return. Varys, before becoming the Master of Whisperers, was a MUMMER. Aegon is "the mummer's dragon," as Varys saved him and has been steering him towards the throne ever since.

7. No one else could really be a replacement for him as one of the three Head of the Dragon, and the series is drawing towards its ultimate close.

Aegon is Aegon, guys.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

The real question is who the hell is Hodor and what is he planning.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

Ah screw Aegon, we all know Varys is too clever to make it so obvious. The secret Targaryen heir is, as I'm sure many of you have deduced, clearly a choice among either Hot Pie, the Great Walrus, Strong Belwas, Jinglebell or Old Nan.

Edited by Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs, 20 July 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Khal Drogo, on 20 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Of course Aegon is "the real deal." It's ridiculous the suspicions directed towards the validity of his Targaryen identity. I shall try to outline them now.

1. Firstly, there are the obvious physical and definitively Targaryen traits of violet eyes and white hair, in addition to his generally being exceptionally handsome and shrewdly intelligent, which nearly every Targaryen has demonstrated (perhaps, with the exception of Viserys).

2. There is the fact that the exiled Jon Connington, one of Prince Rhaegar's few close friends, is Aegon's protector and foster father, and has been since Aegon was a baby. If Aegon was a fake, why would a man so fiercely loyal to Rhaegar and the Targaryen dynasty endorse such an underhanded ruse and the tarnisihing of the family name with a pretender? If Aegon was a fake, Jon Connington would a) know and would never agree to support such a lie.

3. Aegon is precisely the right age that he ought to be. How many young men of that specific age with white hair and violet eyes would one encounter on a day-to-day basis?

4. George R.R Martin has made clear throughout the books that there will be "three heads of the Dragon," three Targaryens remaining. People assumed Viserys, Daenerys and Jon Snow (perhaps Maester Aemon should Jon have been revealed not, in actuality, to be Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son, as is widely considered) would be the heads of said Dragon, the champions of the near extinct family. Fortunately, Viserys (that aggressively stupid gimp of a man) had a pot of molten gold dumped on him by his brother-in-law in a friendly family dispute gone wrong ("Khal Drogo do bad?"), so there was only Daenerys and, potentially, Jon Snow. Jon, Daenerys and Aegon make the three Heads of the Dragon as the series nears its finish- everything is inexorably coming into place in that respect.

5. People tend to say that GRRM would never have revealed such an important character as Aegon so late in the series if he wasn't destined to be ultimately discovered as a fraud. They also state that as he's conveniently not a POV character, so we can't know the inner workings of his mind and judge his authenticity from that. HELLO PEOPLE. The boy's character was unveiled late in the series as a sort of defibrilating, kick-to-the-nuts, outrageously unexpected and awesome surprise. SURPRISE! Gotcha, you know you jumped.  
Anyway, as I was saying, Young Griff was meant as a surprise. We already had Daenerys fulfilling the role of the exiled last hope for the Targaryen dynasty. Both her character's importance, and the unexpected gravity of the significance of Aegon's character, would have been drastically diminished had they both been POV characters from the start. Admittedly, he is not a POV character, but neither was Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon etc. GRRM uses other characters, such as Catelyn and Davos Seaworth as a medium through which we can observe the bigger, more interesting characters. GRRM uses Tyrion and Jon Connington as POV characters to observe Aegon, just as he used Catelyn and Davos to observe Stannis and Robb. It's a literary technique which GRRM has adopted to avoid the characters getting dull and create intrigue.

6. People say "oh Aegon can't be a real Targaryen, cos Daenerys was alerted by Quaithe to the existence of "the mummer's dragon", and so Aegon's a mummer and it's all a big mummery hoax." THEY'RE MUGS. THE OTHERS TAKE THEM. WORSE THAN FREYS AND BOLTONS. DEATH TO THE BOLTONS! DEATH TO THE FREYS! THE KING IN THE NORTH! THE KING IN THE NOR- sorry, got carried away there for a second. Anyway, if it had been "the mummer dragon," such aspersions would have been accurate. As it stands, he is "the mummer's dragon." IT'S POSSESSIVE YOU PHILLISTINES. Varys swapped Aegon with a peasant boy when they were babies, knowing that Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Loch (two really friendly and sensitive guys. Ser Gregor actually enjoys knitting in his free time.) were approaching the Royal Nursery to murder the Targaryen Royal Heirs. Varys then gave the boy to Jon Connington to protect, and has been spending the rest of his life secretly working and plotting to undermine the realm's strength, to spread anarchy and sew discontent and mistrust throughout Westeros, all to facilitate the Rightful Prince Aegon's triumphant return. Varys, before becoming the Master of Whisperers, was a MUMMER. Aegon is "the mummer's dragon," as Varys saved him and has been steering him towards the throne ever since.

7. No one else could really be a replacement for him as one of the three Head of the Dragon, and the series is drawing towards its ultimate close.

Aegon is Aegon, guys.

1. There are numerous idiotic Targaryens in the history of the story. Dany isn't as smart as she thinks. Viserys. Baelor the Befuddled. Aerion Brightflame. Just off the top of my head. Also why can't a non-Targaryen be smart, too? And lastly... most assume Young Griff to be a Blackfyre, hence of Targaryen descent, which would explain the looks. Even if you don't assume that, half of all Lyseni have silver hair and purple eyes, like the whore Jorah hires near Volantis.

2. Nope, Connington isn't Aegon's foster father since he was a baby. Rather, Young Griff was brought to him by Varys at the (supposed?) age of five. He hadn't seen Aegon for four years. The fact that he felt guilt towards Rhaegar and felt he had to redeem himself makes it more likely that he falls for Varys' and Illyrio's scheme.

3. Tyrion thinks the boy looks a little too young to be Aegon. Perhaps a year or two. Time enough for Illyrio to father him off Serra, if necessary.

4. We don't know what 'three heads of the dragon' actually means. Your interpretation might be correct, but doesn't need to be. Also, we have GRRM stating that not all the heads have to be Targaryens.

5. I don't really disagree here with you all that much, but I think it's bad writing to put forth such a figure so late. If Young Griff really turns out to be Aegon (which I doubt, but it's still in the realm of the possible), then I will consier his inclusion bad storytelling.

6. In the books, "mummer's tears" are fake tears; "mummer's show" is a ruse. "Mummer's dragon" might only mean that he's controlled by Varys (bad enough), but it might mean he's actually fake. Also, the baby swap makes little sense. Elia did protect the child she was nursing in Aegon's stead, instead of going to the rescue of her daughter? Unlikely. Convincing Elia that it's dangerous enough for Aegon to be swapped, but not dangerous enough for her and Rhaenys to flee? Pretty unlikely, too.

7. Again, we don't know what 'head of the dragon' actually means. Consider that it's one dragon having three heads (identities?), not three dragons. Dany is mother, queen and dragon. Jon is wolf (stark), crow (Night's Watch man) and dragon. Or it might refer to a dragon, his rider, and a warg controlling him. Again, we just don't know what 'the dragon has three heads' actually means at this point.

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

theguyfromtheVale, on 20 July 2012 - 02:44 AM, said:

1. There are numerous idiotic Targaryens in the history of the story. Dany isn't as smart as she thinks. Viserys. Baelor the Befuddled. Aerion Brightflame. Just off the top of my head. Also why can't a non-Targaryen be smart, too? And lastly... most assume Young Griff to be a Blackfyre, hence of Targaryen descent, which would explain the looks. Even if you don't assume that, half of all Lyseni have silver hair and purple eyes, like the whore Jorah hires near Volantis.

2. Nope, Connington isn't Aegon's foster father since he was a baby. Rather, Young Griff was brought to him by Varys at the (supposed?) age of five. He hadn't seen Aegon for four years. The fact that he felt guilt towards Rhaegar and felt he had to redeem himself makes it more likely that he falls for Varys' and Illyrio's scheme.

3. Tyrion thinks the boy looks a little too young to be Aegon. Perhaps a year or two. Time enough for Illyrio to father him off Serra, if necessary.

4. We don't know what 'three heads of the dragon' actually means. Your interpretation might be correct, but doesn't need to be. Also, we have GRRM stating that not all the heads have to be Targaryens.

5. I don't really disagree here with you all that much, but I think it's bad writing to put forth such a figure so late. If Young Griff really turns out to be Aegon (which I doubt, but it's still in the realm of the possible), then I will consier his inclusion bad storytelling.

6. In the books, "mummer's tears" are fake tears; "mummer's show" is a ruse. "Mummer's dragon" might only mean that he's controlled by Varys (bad enough), but it might mean he's actually fake. Also, the baby swap makes little sense. Elia did protect the child she was nursing in Aegon's stead, instead of going to the rescue of her daughter? Unlikely. Convincing Elia that it's dangerous enough for Aegon to be swapped, but not dangerous enough for her and Rhaenys to flee? Pretty unlikely, too.

7. Again, we don't know what 'head of the dragon' actually means. Consider that it's one dragon having three heads (identities?), not three dragons. Dany is mother, queen and dragon. Jon is wolf (stark), crow (Night's Watch man) and dragon. Or it might refer to a dragon, his rider, and a warg controlling him. Again, we just don't know what 'the dragon has three heads' actually means at this point.

Touche, sir, touche. However, the term "the mummer's dragon" would differ from a "mummer's tears" or a "mummer's ruse", don't you think?
Furthermore, I don't think that it's true that the Lyseni all have purple eyes and silver hair... Perhaps blond hair. The violet eyes and silvery hair are characteristics specifically within the Targaryen (and Blackfyre) families, and to have such traits is to be known to have "the Blood of the Dragon." Ser Jorah Mormont's whore is fleetingly described as having silver hair, and that alone. No purple eyes. However, I do agree with you that he may still be a Blackfyre with such physical oddities. So the real question here is Blackfyre Pretender or unveiled lost Targaryen Son of Rhaegar.
But why? Why the suspicion? Why can he absolutely not be Aegon VI, and must be a Blackfyre? The suspicion seems to stem solely from the fact that Varys is responsible for Aegon's survival, and is co-ordinating his movements. However, when Varys shoots Kevan Lannister with a crossbow andstands over him, he explains his actions- he says that he bore Kevan no ill will, but just that he had needed to be eliminated to pave the way for Aegon Targaryen's successful conquest. Varys is explaining himself, apologising to Kevan. He knows that Kevan is powerless and dying- why would he lie to him? In addition to this, the whole "Blackfyre conspiracy" to put a pretend Aegon on the Iron Throne just seems somewhat far-fetched and obscure. The Blackfyre Rebellions are not heavily elaborated on throughout the series, and happened long ago. It is, however, believable that the baby Aegon was spirited away from harm by Varys in the turmoil of the sacking of King's Landing. It just fits. Do you think Varys would have told anyone about this when he did it? Of course not, Princess Elia could not have known that her child had been swapped- else why did she attack Ser Gregor so desperately, and not just try to escape herself?

[Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs]

Also, Tyrion himself guesses Young Griff to be Aegon. Perhaps he seems young for his age, but Tyrion weighed up the evidence himself and believed without a shadow of a doubt of Aegon's authenticity. And I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that, as I believe GRRM's introduction of Aegon Targaryen was masterful writing, and powerfully delivered. My only issue is that I believe he ought to have witheld Young Griff's true identity until the end of ADWD, when Young Griff must sway the leaders of the Golden Company and unveils himself as Aegon, of House Targaryen, the sixth of his name, Rightful King of the Andals and the First Men etc. etc. and then they all could have bowed yadda yadda yadda. It would have provided an elusive, mysterious and intriguing aura to his character, and it is unfortunate that GRRM didn't incorporate that element, but I still feel that Aegon's introduction to the series was an excellent idea. We have just read 5 books which show Westeros' gradual divisionand inexorable descent into chaos, where heroes young and old are betrayed and butchered; where treachery, murder and anarchy seems rife- to introduce a foreign element, a wild card, the lost Prince Aegon, son of the noble and beloved Rhaegar who was cruelly slain, Rightful King, here to liberate his homeland- it just seems so romantic and imaginative. It's stirring, exceptional writing. But you think it was a silly idea huh?

Edited by Khal Drogo's Mighty Thighs, 20 July 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Why the suspicion? Because he was hidden for so long. Basically, if you are the exiled heir to a dynasty, you hold a parallel court, gather other exiles, and stay visible as a pretender; pretty much what Viserys and Dany tried to do. You do not simply disappear for close to two decades, without anyone who can vouchsafe that it's really you (and Connington doesn't really count on that front - he didn't have Aegon until he was five, and everyone in the seven kingdoms believes him dead).

If it was really Aegon, Varys should have tried to connect him with Dany and Viserys asap; Willem Darry and Viserys could guarantee that it was really Aegon, and support his claim. Instead, Varys and Illyrio deliberately blindsided Dany and Viserys about Young Griff's existence. That's pretty much where my original suspicion comes from.

But there are other signs that not all about Young Griff is at it seems. Jon Connington, for example, isn't privy to the details of the contract with the Golden Company. That was a deal brokered among Myles Toyne, Varys and Illyrio. Connington obviously trusted Toyne, but I'm not sure he was justified in doing so. Toyne was the last unambiguously pro-Blackfyre commander of the Golden Company, having fought under Maelys the Monstrous. All of this makes me doubt if Connington has all the intel, or if he was deliberately left out of the loop. This is reinforced by the fact that the officers of the Golden Company know who Young Griff is (or who Connington thinks he is). Varys and Illyrio seem to give Strickland and his men more information than they give Connington.

Also, Varys' and Illyrio's credentials as Targaryen loyalists are more than just a little iffy. Varys increased Aerys' paranoia an directed it towards Rhaegar. If Varys really wanted a stable Targaryen rule, they should have supported Rhaegar instead of pitching Aerys against him. Then there's the fact that they pretty much sent Viserys and Daenerys to die in the Dothraki sea; as Illyrio himself says, he didn't expect Dany to survive among the Dothraki.

As for your points in favour of Young Griff being Aegon: The Daynes, who have no Valyrian connection whatsoever, have also purple eyes and, in some cases, silver hair. As for many Lyseni having silver hair and purple eyes, that's something we have from Cersei.

As for Varys: Varys is rather untrustworthy. It's not that he tells blatant untruths. Rather, he tells half-truths, keeping behind important pieces of information. For example, while Varys says Aegon has returned, he never calls him Aegon Targaryen, or Rhaegar's son. He could just as well be another Aegon; Aegon Blackfyre, for example. The Blackfyres have Valyrian naming customs, too.

If you think a mother wouldn't recognize her baby, though. I'm sorry but unconvinced. As for Tyrion? No, he doesn't guess Young Griff is Aegon. Rather, he extorts that information from Haldon as his price for the lost Cyvasse game. Even afterwards, Tyrion harbors doubts. "Perhaps he is a Targaryen after all" he thinks after the Cyvasse game against Young Griff, indicating that he doubts the story of Varys and Illyrio.

As for the mummer's dragon: It might be a different case. But why, then, specifically use the phrase 'mummer's dragon' instead of, say, 'eunuch's dragon'? Or 'spy's dragon'? 'Mummer's dragon' is deliberately ambiguous in this respect.

[Eejit]

Khal Drogo, on 20 July 2012 - 02:32 AM, said:

Ah screw Aegon, we all know Varys is too clever to make it so obvious. The secret Targaryen heir is, as I'm sure many of you have deduced, clearly a choice among either Hot Pie, the Great Walrus, Strong Belwas, Jinglebell or Old Nan.

Pretty sure it's Manet.

[moe.]

well for one thing. everyone keeps mentioning the mummers dragon. or the mummer's dragon. and using that term quite significantly and analyzing the hell out of it.
but when the prophecy is foretold.... isnt the term the used a "cloth dragon"? I thought it was something like

bla bla bla, bla bla, cloth dragon (a prop used by mummers that is dangled on strings), bla bla bla, bla bla,

or something along those lines?


as for the quote regarding Illyrio saying that the contract can be broken cus some are writ in ink and somein blood. Sure you can take that to mean anything. This is Varys we are talking about. So it could just as easily be said that when they talked to the Golden company, they were like. "so yea. we have a blackfyre here who thinks he is aegon. but aegon is disguised as young griff. soon we will go to westeros and pwn all of our enemies and reclaim the throne. with the help of the golden company, we can put a blackfyre back on the throne (just dont say anything to griff about him being a blackfyre yet... he doesnt know)!"
so then the golden company is like, awwww hell yaaa. and they are in.

but varys/illyrio could just as easily be lying to the golden company. tell them he is a blackfyre to earn their support and gain muscle to help reconquer the iron throne. but in actually he really is a targ and he just used them for their support, knowing that they would help a blackfyre.



despite all of this, I like to believe that aegon is real. hes a targ. not a blackfyre, not a mopatis, not a (whatever varys last name is).


and my last point or question i guess would be like. couldnt quentyn have been a "mummer's dragon"? he thought he was a dragon but turned out was not true

[moe.]

oh and also. doesn't JC/Griff mention something about similarities to rhaegar? We are led to believe he has a crush on him and stuff. but when he is on the tower after retaking the griffin nest, he is like on the roof thinking about when he was up there with rhaegar and him saying his fathers lands are beautiful? I just feel like at some point griff mentions some parallels between YG and rhaegar.

[Dragonfish]

moe., on 20 July 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

well for one thing. everyone keeps mentioning the mummers dragon. or the mummer's dragon. and using that term quite significantly and analyzing the hell out of it.
but when the prophecy is foretold.... isnt the term the used a "cloth dragon"? I thought it was something like

Dany refers to the cloth dragon as a "mummer's dragon" in her last chapter in ACOK.

moe., on 20 July 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

oh and also. doesn't JC/Griff mention something about similarities to rhaegar? We are led to believe he has a crush on him and stuff. but when he is on the tower after retaking the griffin nest, he is like on the roof thinking about when he was up there with rhaegar and him saying his fathers lands are beautiful? I just feel like at some point griff mentions some parallels between YG and rhaegar.

Aegon makes a statement that reminds him of something Rhaegar says to him, but that's it. In fact, in this very same chapter he thinks to himself that Aegon has one trait that isn't like his father's: the eyes. Aegon's eyes are lighter than Rhaegar's. Could mean nothing, but I think it's notable that the only time Connington compares the physical characteristics of Aegon and Rhaegar, he specifically notes a difference, and not a similarity.

[Dragonfish]

Khal Drogo, on 20 July 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

But why? Why the suspicion? Why can he absolutely not be Aegon VI, and must be a Blackfyre?

Here's the truth: some posters have been expecting to see a fake Aegon appear since ACOK, when we first heard the mummer's dragon prophecy. So when an Aegon finally showed up in ADWD, it simply confirmed what we were predicting. Everything else is an outgrowth of this.

Now, there are a couple divergent theories for those who believe that Aegon is fake. Some believe that he is simply some random orphan pulled from somewhere in Essos, someone without any special familial ties to anyone. That used to be my belief, but now I'm partial to the Blackfyre variant of the theory, for one simple reason: I believe, as do many others, that it was foreshadowed in AFFC. I'm referring here to one of Septon Meribald's stories, in which he mentions a black iron dragon sign that was thrown into the sea, and later washed ashore "red with rust." Read that again: a black dragon turned red. The sigil for House Blackfyre was a black dragon, and the sigil for House Targaryen was a red dragon. See the foreshadowing?

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Of course not, Princess Elia could not have known that her child had been swapped- else why did she attack Ser Gregor so desperately, and not just try to escape herself?

This doesn't help your point. You think that Elia would not have recognized that the baby wasn't hers? No, that stretches credulity. So the fact that she is so desperate to keep the child from Gregor implies the baby truly is hers.

[moe.]

theguyfromtheVale, on 20 July 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Why the suspicion? Because he was hidden for so long. Basically, if you are the exiled heir to a dynasty, you hold a parallel court, gather other exiles, and stay visible as a pretender; pretty much what Viserys and Dany tried to do. You do not simply disappear for close to two decades, without anyone who can vouchsafe that it's really you (and Connington doesn't really count on that front - he didn't have Aegon until he was five, and everyone in the seven kingdoms believes him dead).

If it was really Aegon, Varys should have tried to connect him with Dany and Viserys asap; Willem Darry and Viserys could guarantee that it was really Aegon, and support his claim. Instead, Varys and Illyrio deliberately blindsided Dany and Viserys about Young Griff's existence. That's pretty much where my original suspicion comes from.

That seems silly. For one thing, when all of this started, Westeros was stil intact. Aegon would have a good chance in teh future which is why Varys has been causing chaos. but why would you put all of your eggs in one basket? We already know that as soon as Dany and viserys made one move, there was an assassination attempt on them. If you put all of them together then they could all be destroyed at the same time and your work for 10+ years is for nothing. another reason would be then Varys would be outting himself. He has remained in court in Westeros up until Tyrions escape. If it had been revealed that Aegon was safe across the sea with dany and viserys, for one... they would know varys just did that. and he could be killed. another would be because having dany and viserys come with the dothraki would help create chaos and imbalance, setting the stage for aegon to come in.  theres so many reasons why it would be a bad idea to have made it public knowledge years ago