131 replies to this topic

[Justice for Elia]

What exactly happened there? Rhaegar declares Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhal tournament, and then later absconds with her to Dorne. Why? Was this consensual? Were they running away together, or was it really a rape? Either way, poor Elia, but still, how much is known about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship?

[Pliny]

I too have had a hard time keeping track of the bits and pieces of the story of the Harrenhal tournament.

I would welcome some help in putting it all together.

[Revan Baratheon]

Well i think he raped her,but for some reason Rhaegar's bipolar disorder is quite appealing to the ladies in this forum,so they interpret it as "love"



I hate Rhaegar....viserys ftw!

Edited by Revan Baratheon, 06 March 2012 - 12:32 AM.

[Justice for Elia]

By all accounts Rhaegar seems like a noble man, but this was pretty indefensible. Even if it was consensual, Rhaegar's still committing adultery, stole another man's fiancé, and started a war which led to the destruction of his family. I know GRRM makes characters more human (i.e. flawed) in ASOIAF, but this is pretty despicable for the Rhaegar of Dany's dreams and Barristan's stories.

[Revan Baratheon]

Justice for Elia, on 06 March 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

By all accounts Rhaegar seems like a noble man, but this was pretty indefensible. Even if it was consensual, Rhaegar's still committing adultery, stole another man's fiancé, and started a war which led to the destruction of his family. I
know GRRM makes characters more human (i.e. flawed) in ASOIAF, but this is pretty despicable for the Rhaegar of Dany's dreams and Barristan's stories.

Exactly.Even if he hadnt raped her,he would still be a mental case,responsible for his dynasty's ruin and destruction.I dont know why people keep blaming poor Aerys for the sins of his prophecy-obsessed,bipolar son.

[Justice for Elia]

Revan Baratheon, on 06 March 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Exactly.Even if he hadnt raped her,he would still be a mental case,responsible for his dynasty's ruin and destruction.I dont know why people keep blaming poor Aerys for the sins of his prophecy-obsessed,bipolar son.

You have a point. He's portrayed as a "tragic figure," but that could be a Targaryen way of lying to themselves about his insanity. Like how Kennedy is commemorated as a "great president" (especially among his family) despite his mediocre record. Elia could not have any more children, so in his obsession with "the dragon having three heads," Rhaegar finds another woman - Lyanna - and has his way with her, fate of the Realm be damned.

[Revan Baratheon]

Not to mention that during most of the Rebellion he was busy ploughing Lyanna.Im sorry for the outbursts.I shall stop now.But a guy who does not care about the safety of his wife or infant kids(he shouldve made arrangements like stannis to send them to essos) and places his own sexual(or prophecy-related) desires above them does not deserve my respect or sympathy

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Just as a useful tool, sometimes when I have questions like this I go here:  http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Main_Page and look up the character/event that I am curious about.  It is not all completely error-proof, but it is pretty darn close, and can sometimes be a faster way of getting an answer than starting a thread and awaiting replies.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Revan Baratheon, on 06 March 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Well i think he raped her,but for some reason Rhaegar's bipolar disorder is quite appealing to the ladies in this forum,so they interpret it as "love"



I hate Rhaegar....viserys ftw!

Oh come one there's no way the purple eyed girly man could have raped Llyana Stark.  The only reason he won the tourney was because she put on the laughing tree armor and kicked that asses of all the real knights and then warged in Bariston Selmy's horse so he lost the joust (the same way sana did for Loras). Llyana would've warged into a pack of wolves and ripped him to pieces.  The only explanation is that Howland Reed learned about the Prince Who Was Promised on the isle of faces and Rhaegar learned about it from his excessive bookishness and was able to convince Llyana that the future of the universe depended on their coupling.  No, mean feat mind you, I've tried that line many a time at last call and its only worked once.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 06 March 2012 - 01:18 AM.

[Justice for Elia]

LadyoftheNorth72, on 06 March 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Just as a useful tool, sometimes when I have questions like this I go here:  http://awoiaf.wester...x.php/Main_Page and look up the character/event that I am curious about.  It is not all completely error-proof, but it is pretty darn close, and can sometimes be a faster way of getting an answer than starting a thread and awaiting replies.

Thanks! The wiki is an invaluable resource, but given that the events in question are all recollected to us rather than experienced by us, I wanted more discussion/interpretation than the wiki offers.

[RickonTheBAMF]

Who's to say she was an unwilling participant? She was engaged to Robert but (and someone pretty please remind me the chapter and verse mention) she knew he was unlikely to remain faithful to her. Bear in mind she knew he had already fathered one bastard. Off to Harrenhal she goes, and here's this ethereal-looking prince who just owned the entire field crowning her QoL&B. Heart goes pitter-patter, etc. ad nauseam. Rhaegar sneaks into Winterfell sometime shortly after in mufti and reveals himself to her, can anyone say she doesn't willingly run off with him?

TL;DR Don't assume it was kidnapping and rape, she had 'a touch of the wolf's blood' as Ned attested.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

R.A.H., on 06 March 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Who's to say she was an unwilling participant? She was engaged to Robert but (and someone pretty please remind me the chapter and verse mention) she knew he was unlikely to remain faithful to her. Bear in mind she knew he had already fathered one bastard. Off to Harrenhal she goes, and here's this ethereal-looking prince who just owned the entire field crowning her QoL&B. Heart goes pitter-patter, etc. ad nauseam. Rhaegar sneaks into Winterfell sometime shortly after in mufti and reveals himself to her, can anyone say she doesn't willingly run off with him?

TL;DR Don't assume it was kidnapping and rape, she had 'a touch of the wolf's blood' as Ned attested.

Dude, I'm pretty sure it was the knight of the laughing tree who owned the field.  And I'm going to assume it was her since none of the laughing tree knight's opponents got magiced into tree stump or swallowed up by quicksand.

[Justice for Elia]

R.A.H., on 06 March 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Who's to say she was an unwilling participant? She was engaged to Robert but (and someone pretty please remind me the chapter and verse mention) she knew he was unlikely to remain faithful to her. Bear in mind she knew he had already fathered one bastard. Off to Harrenhal she goes, and here's this ethereal-looking prince who just owned the entire field crowning her QoL&B. Heart goes pitter-patter, etc. ad nauseam. Rhaegar sneaks into Winterfell sometime shortly after in mufti and reveals himself to her, can anyone say she doesn't willingly run off with him?

TL;DR Don't assume it was kidnapping and rape, she had 'a touch of the wolf's blood' as Ned attested.

I think that sounds more likely than rape. Rhaegar makes more sense as a cheating husband than a rapist. His obsession with the number three combined with Elia's infertility drove him to adultery. The free-spirit Lyanna, engaged to a known philanderer, would be especially susceptible to the advances of an emo, poetry-reading, tournament-winning prince like Rhaegar.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Justice for Elia, on 06 March 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I think that sounds more likely than rape. Rhaegar makes more sense as a cheating husband than a rapist. His obsession with the number three combined with Elia's infertility drove him to adultery. The free-spirit Lyanna, engaged to a known philanderer, would be especially susceptible to the advances of an emo, poetry-reading, tournament-winning prince like Rhaegar.

ARRRGGGGGGHHHHHH he didn't win anything, he beat one guy.

[Justice for Elia]

Lord Littlefinger, on 06 March 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

ARRRGGGGGGHHHHHH he didn't win anything, he beat one guy.

Okay, first of all, explain this theory to me, because it is one which I have not heard. Secondly, if his victory was a sham, that impies that Lyanna was with him willingly, correct?

Edited by Justice for Elia, 06 March 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[corbon]

Justice for Elia, on 06 March 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

What exactly happened there? Rhaegar declares Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Harrenhal tournament, and then later absconds with her to Dorne. Why? Was this consensual? Were they running away together, or was it really a rape? Either way, poor Elia, but still, how much is known about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship?

You might try reading around a bit. There are numerous threads devoted to this topic, either directly or close enough.

What is known as fact? Almost nothing.
Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and beauty but there is a fairly good case that that was a respectful reward for her antics as Knight of the Laughing Tree, almost certainly not (yet at least) a show of 'love'.
That was received with 'all the smiles died' which doesn't tell us anything about it being insulting to Elia - smiles can die of surprise, and shock as easily as anger or dismay, and that is only Ned's recollection - it may have only applied to his immediate party for example.
We know that Lyanna previously cried at his sad song and was teased by here little brother for doing so, and that Rhaegar was something of a dreamboat whom all the girls more or less mooned over.
We know that Lyanna previously expressed to Ned that she wasn't interested in Robert.
We know that as Lyanna died in Ned's arms, she was clutching raded roses that matched the crown he awarded her. It rather looks like she loved him, or crushed on him at least, even after her supposed abduction and rape.

Other than that, we are told - by people who weren't present and don't have any realistic chance of actual knowledge of the event, that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.
The evidence for rape is less than zero - nothing at all other than a claim by Robert who is clearly irrationally biased and delusional on the subjects of Lyanna and Targaryens, and a stupid enough moron that he doesn't know that his own kids cannot possibly be his (Cersei hasn't let him finish inside her since well before Tommen was born). Basically anything Robert claims is true is actually less likely to be true than if he said nothing.

To answer some other baseless accusations, we know that Rhaegar did not leave his family defenseless - to the contrary, they were defended by the same defences afforded to (and approved by) the king!
We also know that Rhaegar was not on the best of terms with Aerys, which put him in a difficult position.

We know that Elia could not have more children, and Rhaegar knew it. We know that he believed three kids were necessary for prophecy (which is a damned valid reason when prophecy and magic a real in this world).
We know Targaryens practiced polygamy before and there is no evidence that the law had changed.
We know that the 3KG at ToJ ignored Viserys, meaning they did not believe he was the rightful King. Following through that reasoning gives a very high probability that Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married.

[corbon]

Lord Littlefinger, on 06 March 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Dude, I'm pretty sure it was the knight of the laughing tree who owned the field.  And I'm going to assume it was her since none of the laughing tree knight's opponents got magiced into tree stump or swallowed up by quicksand.

You are mistaken.

The KotLT beat 3 minor knights, who were among 5 'champions' (temporarily on a challenge basis) on the second day of 5. That left 3 'champions' including KotLT at the end of day 2. When KotLT did not reappear that meant only two champions. Those two chmapions continued to be challenged (and replaced if they were defeated) for three more days. In the end, Rhaegar was the winner, which means he defeated at least one champion and we were told he defeated Arther Dayne, or was it Barristan Selmy? He probably, but not certainly, defeated more challengers, unless he was literally the last challenger of the event. Even then, unless someone else had challenged both 'champions' and dropped the number from 2 to 1, he would have had to ride off agaisnt the other champion. We don't know exactly how things went down though..

[Justice for Elia]

corbon, on 06 March 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

You might try reading around a bit. There are numerous threads devoted to this topic, either directly or close enough.

Yeah, there is lots of R+L=J, but I am less interested in Jon's parentage than I am in the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. I thought it deserved its own space, free from Jon Snow.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It's even weirder that he went to Dorne, the home of his actual wife's family, with Lyanna Stark

[Apple Martini]

We don't actually know much of anything, for a fact. We can only kind of connect the dots.

I'd be surprised if it was anything but consensual. Other than Robert's word, I don't really see anything pointing to rape. I also believe that Rhaegar was married to both Lyanna and Elia, polygamously.